Author Topic: The Nature of Vasuda Prime  (Read 5440 times)

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Offline Eishtmo

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The Nature of Vasuda Prime
Please excuse the randomness and long winded nature of the bulk of this.  I was mainly writing it to see what I could come up with, and came up with a damn lot.  Suggestions, comments, complaints and whatnot encoraged and demanded.

"Twin continents"
"dry, arid climate"
"nearly the same atmospheric and respiration needs [as humans]"
"covered by wind-blown deserts and barren, rocky terrain"
"Vasudans live mostly in domed, sheltered or underground cities"
"[Vasudans] always excelled at excavation"
"fourth planet of [system]"
"above-ground water is, even by Vasudan standards, undrinkable"
"Only planet in that system that is capable of supporting life"
"Heir of a 10,000 Year Dynasty"
"four billion innocent Vasudan civilians"
"all major Vasudan cities were leveled"
"At 3320, Vasudan Galactic Time. . ."

This document is an attempt to describe the nature of Vasuda Prime, the homeworld of the Vasudan race.  Everything here is based on the above facts as well as those of geology and physical laws as we know them.

Vasuda Prime is described as having two continents, indicating that there is some amount of water on the surface as a kind of ocean.  Since it is also described as mostly an arid planet, these oceans are not very big (perhaps only a few miles across in some places) and give little evaporation to the environment.

There are, however, rather large amounts of groundwater.  Since the only quote we have regarding the nature of water on the planet refers to above-ground water, then there must be reasonably significant underground stores, enough of which to support a civilization at least 10,000 years old.

The fact that there is a low amount of surface and atmospheric water also lends to the fact that Vasuda Prime is a geologically dead planet.  The core of this argument is that most of the water on a terrestrial planet comes from inside the planet as a result of outgassing by volcanic activity.  If there hasn't been any volcanic activity in a great while, most water above ground would either have seeped underneath or escaped the planet via solar action.

Since Vasudans are said to have similar respiratory and atmospheric needs to humans, then the atmosphere of Vasuda Prime is likely ~20% oxygen, ~79% nitrogen, the result of a long periods of life on the planet.  The atmosphere is also approximately the same thickness at sea level as that on Earth.  This indicates that Vasuda Prime is at least as big as Earth (and thus able to hold on to a similarly thick atmosphere) and at one point likely had a great deal of life on the surface.  The fact that it no longer does is likely the result of the planet's core cooling and volcanic activity ceasing at some point in the past.  This indicates that it, as well as the entire Vasuda system, is far older than Earth and its sun.

How old can be determined by an examination of the habitation zone of a star.  Vasuda Prime is said to be the fourth planet from the Vasuda star.  Assuming that it is the same distance as Mars, the fourth planet in the Sol system, and that the Vasuda star is the same type of star as the sun, then the habitation zone of the star, the region in which life as we know it can easily evolve and develop, would propagate out at a steady rate as the star grow hotter (all this needs to be confirmed, and thus is all guess work at this time).  The rate at which it grows out would determine when, approximately, life appeared on Vasuda Prime.  Now, since Vasuda Prime is likely geologically dead, then the rate at which the core of a planet the size of Earth would take to cool could give an approximate age of the planet as it stands today, give or take a several million years.

Vasuda Prime appears, from description and imagery to have originally been intended to be a livable Mars.  It is an arid, desert world with no large amounts of surface water and a large, visible canyon and mountains.  The first parts are easily found within the description of Vasuda Prime, while the mountains and canyons are easily discernable from the only actual images of the planet we currently have available.  Thus, many of the properties of Mars can be reasonable attributed to Vasuda Prime, with the lone exception of the planet's atmosphere, which is actually very much like Earth's.  This makes the only solid difference between Vasuda Prime and Mars being sheer and utter size (or at the very least, mass).

Possible Geologic History:

Vasuda Prime likely formed in much the same way as other planetary bodies.  However, being farther out than Earth, water on the surface quickly froze, making the planet much more similar to Europe than Earth.  Constant volcanism underneath the ice, however, probably became the home of Vasuda Prime's early life forms.  As billions of years passed, the habitation zone of the Vasuda star moved outward as it grew hotter, eventually enveloping Vasuda Prime.

The ice now began to melt due to solar influence, creating the world's first true oceans.  Life flourished, finally free of the icy prison, and spread across the surface at a rapid rate.  Evolution took hold and soon there were millions of different animals and plants anywhere and everywhere.

This all came much too late for the planet.  The heat from the sun did manage to melt the ice, but it also began to boil off the water, sending it into deep space and away from the planet.  At the same time, volcanic outgassing ceased as the planet's core began to grow cold.  The magnetic field, probably not very strong to begin with given the planet's low amount of resources, weakened as the core cooled, allowing more intense radiation in, speeding up the removal of water from the surface.  What water remained went underground or stayed in the primitive oceans that were slowly evaporated away by the Vasudan sun.

This process was probably continuing when the Vasudan species evolved.  The planet was becoming less, and less hospitable, turning from lush forests to wind-blown deserts.  To cope with these conditions, early Vasudans began to evolve larger brains, using them to simply survive on a dying world.  Civilization probably developed as an adaptation to the difficult environment, as groups of Vasudans would likely gather around what few springs and wells that were available.

Vasuda Prime Before the Shivans:

The oceans of Vasuda Prime are likely briny basins of really, really salty water, probably similar to the Dead Sea, but on a much, much larger scale.  It probably followed a thin line of old subduction trenches and mid ocean rifts that had long ago ceased to function.  The planetary water table probably is at about the median sea level, but is likely mostly fresh water.  This would place most major Vasuda cities near the oceans, as this would be the easiest place at which to gain access to the water.  Other cities could be found in the desert over old aquifers that still held large amounts of water early in their history.

The cities are sheltered, domed, or underground, the result of the desert-like conditions of the world.  Sheltered cities would likely be among the oldest, and are probably near what were once easily accessible sources of underground water.

Many of the underground cities are more modern, requiring much more engineering work to complete.  Likely they were started in caves initially, where water flowed easily, and eventually moved deeper as the Vasudans developed.  The domed cities are likely the newest, created in the last few hundred years to help contain the ever growing population.

The only image of a Vasudan city we have may either be a sheltered city, due to the small mountain range, or the surface part of an underground city, possibly a space port.  If it is underground, the mountains may not, in fact, be mountains, but slag left over from burrowing down into the ground.  The shapes, however, are far too steep to be slag, so it's likely this is a sheltered city.

There are still quite a few life forms on Vasuda prime, most of which are desert like creatures probably feeding near oasis like areas scattered across the planet's surface.  It is likely that there are no sea creatures to speak of, and the only animals with any leanings toward living in water are those found in caves.  The rest of the animals would likely develop a hardened skin to resist the cosmic rays that likely bombard the planet on a regular basis.  Most would conserve water in any way possible, creating species that are boney, dry creatures, using water only for the most important parts of the body (heart, brain, blood).

Animals would have quickly broken into two groups:  Those that huddle around oasis's, creating small pockets of species, and those who migrate between them.  Those that stay in one place would likely appear as different as species stranded on separate islands on Earth, conforming to the individual environments of the oasis.  Those who moved between them would either require an excellent water storage and distribution system, much like a camel, great speed to cross the deserts as quickly as possible, or flight.  The Apsu-Hek was likely a flying creature (given the design of the Tauret fighter), and could easily, and often, moved between the various oasis's of the planet.  This would make an excellent symbol of the Vasudan diaspora.  Though I can't say for sure, the little black dots flying around the Vasudan city could, in fact, be Apsu-Hek's.  Or Shivan and Vasudan ships, hard to say which from the angle.

Vasudans and the Ancients:

Everything here was done based on the assumptions that the Vasudans actually evolved on Vasuda Prime.  Their connection to the Ancients may, in fact, render most, if not all, of this worthless.  In the end, the story overrides the science, in as far as the story is told.  Since nothing but the vaguest hints of the connection between the Ancients and the Vasudan's is given, this is probably the closest we're going to get to describing Vasuda Prime's true nature before the Great War.

Before you guys go, where the hell are the Command Briefing ani's for FS2?  I can't find them with VPview anywhere.  Thanks.
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Offline diamondgeezer

The Nature of Vasuda Prime
1) Bloody hell

2) They're in the Tango archives... aren't they?

 

Offline aldo_14

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The Nature of Vasuda Prime
cb anims are in tango1_fs2, 2 & 3 (no. indicating the epsiode).  It's an optional install, though.

 

Offline Lightspeed

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The Nature of Vasuda Prime
Quote
Originally posted by Eishtmo
The fact that there is a low amount of surface and atmospheric water also lends to the fact that Vasuda Prime is a geologically dead planet.  The core of this argument is that most of the water on a terrestrial planet comes from inside the planet as a result of outgassing by volcanic activity.  If there hasn't been any volcanic activity in a great while, most water above ground would either have seeped underneath or escaped the planet via solar action.


Volcanic activity doesnt have to do with the amount of water that can be found on the surface of the planet. Look at Io, it’s probably the most volcanic planet known to mankind and theres no water at all. The volcanoes erupt sulfur dioxide, which will then freeze solid and drop back to the ground. The whole surface of the planet is thus covered in sulfur dioxide ‘sulfur snow’ which will make any life improssible. Mars is also an example to see that. It’s volcanic activity is stronger than Earth’s but theres a lot less water.

Quote
Since Vasudans are said to have similar respiratory and atmospheric needs to humans, then the atmosphere of Vasuda Prime is likely ~20% oxygen, ~79% nitrogen, the result of a long periods of life on the planet.  The atmosphere is also approximately the same thickness at sea level as that on Earth.  This indicates that Vasuda Prime is at least as big as Earth (and thus able to hold on to a similarly thick atmosphere) and at one point likely had a great deal of life on the surface.  The fact that it no longer does is likely the result of the planet's core cooling and volcanic activity ceasing at some point in the past.  This indicates that it, as well as the entire Vasuda system, is far older than Earth and its sun.


It could be the result of long life periods, although personally i think in Vasuda’s case it isn’t. I’ll try to explain why.
First, the thickness of the atmosphere is not about the planet’s size. It actually depends on 2 factors:
- Gravity: Depends on the mass of the planet (not it’s size!) – so any planet could possibly handle enough atmosphere like Earth. It depends on which substances the planet is made of, which, in Vasuda’s case, would be a great deal of ‘fluffy’ stuff like sand. Vasuda would probably be bigger than Earth from that point of view.
- The second factor is the magnetic stability of the Planet. This mainly depends on the moons of a planet. When you look at Earth, the poles are stabilized by the Moon. On Mars, there isn’t a real moon anymore, and for that reason the poles shift a lot faster than those of earth. This will reduce the capability of the planet to retain the atmosphere, and it will also lead to desertification (*hint* Vasuda *hint* ) as the climate will suffer drastic changes as the poles move around.
I think Vasuda’s problem mainly was the instability of the magnetic poles (I assume Vasuda is missing big enough moons) which prevented a really stable growth to establish. As a further result of the shifting poles the volcanic activity will rise, there will be a lot of eruptions which will fill the atmosphere with poisonous gases killing the bit of life that has evolved on the surface, and also poisoning the water found on the surface (thus making it ‘undrinkable’ as mentioned in the quotes). The gases of the volcanic activity will then again act as greenhouse gases and even accelerate the temperature increasements on the surface.  If you look at a Vasudan you will see that the Vasudan body is specifically designed for surviving in great heat. The body is protected by some sort of scales, with as much surface as possible to lose heat (look how ‘skinny’ they are).
So IMHO it’s nothing like core cooling, but about the opposite.

Quote
How old can be determined by an examination of the habitation zone of a star.  Vasuda Prime is said to be the fourth planet from the Vasuda star.  Assuming that it is the same distance as Mars, the fourth planet in the Sol system, and that the Vasuda star is the same type of star as the sun, then the habitation zone of the star, the region in which life as we know it can easily evolve and develop, would propagate out at a steady rate as the star grow hotter (all this needs to be confirmed, and thus is all guess work at this time).  The rate at which it grows out would determine when, approximately, life appeared on Vasuda Prime.  Now, since Vasuda Prime is likely geologically dead, then the rate at which the core of a planet the size of Earth would take to cool could give an approximate age of the planet as it stands today, give or take a several million years.


the guess work is wrong, i’m afraid. First, I doubt Vasuda is the same distance as Mars, and then – What do we know about Vasuda’s sun? The planet will usually not leave it’s orbit around the sun, either. If there is a trend in a planets behaviour it’s clearly directed towards the sun, as it’s still the fourth planet of the system and the gravity will be stronger than the rotational force pushing the planet away from the sun. Life probably evolved in the youth of Vasuda, when there still were non-poisonous water oceans on the surface. The vasudans would then have developed as some kind of cave beings, drinking the ground water, and only coming to the surface when in dire need to, mostly living in the water caves way down below the surface  (maybe that’s why there’s this vasudanswuvfishies trend? ) – The only life that could prevail was fishy- like things in the deep caves of Vasuda, as well as some little desert animals on the surface.

Quote
Vasuda Prime appears, from description and imagery to have originally been intended to be a livable Mars.  It is an arid, desert world with no large amounts of surface water and a large, visible canyon and mountains.  The first parts are easily found within the description of Vasuda Prime, while the mountains and canyons are easily discernable from the only actual images of the planet we currently have available.  Thus, many of the properties of Mars can be reasonable attributed to Vasuda Prime, with the lone exception of the planet's atmosphere, which is actually very much like Earth's.  This makes the only solid difference between Vasuda Prime and Mars being sheer and utter size (or at the very least, mass).


There are indeed a lot of differences between Mars and Vasuda like we get to see it in the Freespace Universe. Most of it is explained above though. There certainly are some similarities but the most things are really different.

 
Quote
Possible Geologic History:

Vasuda Prime likely formed in much the same way as other planetary bodies.  However, being farther out than Earth, water on the surface quickly froze, making the planet much more similar to Europe than Earth.  Constant volcanism underneath the ice, however, probably became the home of Vasuda Prime's early life forms.  As billions of years passed, the habitation zone of the Vasuda star moved outward as it grew hotter, eventually enveloping Vasuda Prime.

The ice now began to melt due to solar influence, creating the world's first true oceans.  Life flourished, finally free of the icy prison, and spread across the surface at a rapid rate.  Evolution took hold and soon there were millions of different animals and plants anywhere and everywhere.

This all came much too late for the planet.  The heat from the sun did manage to melt the ice, but it also began to boil off the water, sending it into deep space and away from the planet.  At the same time, volcanic outgassing ceased as the planet's core began to grow cold.  The magnetic field, probably not very strong to begin with given the planet's low amount of resources, weakened as the core cooled, allowing more intense radiation in, speeding up the removal of water from the surface.  What water remained went underground or stayed in the primitive oceans that were slowly evaporated away by the Vasudan sun.

This process was probably continuing when the Vasudan species evolved.  The planet was becoming less, and less hospitable, turning from lush forests to wind-blown deserts.  To cope with these conditions, early Vasudans began to evolve larger brains, using them to simply survive on a dying world.  Civilization probably developed as an adaptation to the difficult environment, as groups of Vasudans would likely gather around what few springs and wells that were available.


Of course, with my theory this doesn’t work anymore
Instead it would be something like:

Vasuda Prime was formed very much the same way as other planetary bodies. The life conditions soon developed making the planet very hospitable and life friendly. The main life evolved on Vasuda, but soon things were about to come to an abrupt end.

At this point of Vasuda’s history some tragic events took place. One theory would be that one of Vasuda’s moons was hit by a meteor which would destabilize the poles on Vasuda. The other theory could be that they slowly destabilized over the millions of years. Whichever way, the climate on Vasuda was facing drastic changes as the poles wandered around the surface, making deserts where oceans had been. Produced by the strong pole shifts, the volacnic activity rose to an abnormal level. The atmosphere was poisoned with sulfur gases, and the oceans were poisoned, made uninhabitable and undrinkable.

However, life had already developed. And once there is life, it will not easily be extinguished. There’s nothing as durable as life. So the life forms went underground, living in the cooler parts of Vasuda, and using the water and minerals that could be found in subterranean caves. The situation on the surface would be getting desperate. The volcanoes emmitting loads of greenhouse gases, the poles shifting around, and any plants dead. Soon Vasuda’s surface had become a desert, very hot at daytime, and very cold during the night. The Vasudans evolved as a species living underground and only crossing the surface when they had to.

Quote
Vasuda Prime Before the Shivans:

The oceans of Vasuda Prime are likely briny basins of really, really salty water, probably similar to the Dead Sea, but on a much, much larger scale.  It probably followed a thin line of old subduction trenches and mid ocean rifts that had long ago ceased to function.  The planetary water table probably is at about the median sea level, but is likely mostly fresh water.  This would place most major Vasuda cities near the oceans, as this would be the easiest place at which to gain access to the water.  Other cities could be found in the desert over old aquifers that still held large amounts of water early in their history.

The cities are sheltered, domed, or underground, the result of the desert-like conditions of the world.  Sheltered cities would likely be among the oldest, and are probably near what were once easily accessible sources of underground water.


The water would be, in my theory, be poisonous, and the main Vasudan cities for that reason, would be built underground. Hoewever, when the cities kept growing bigger they could not be kept underground, and so the Vasudans for the first time really moved upwards and started building on the surface. The actual rooms still a bit under the surface, but not really underground anymore. Also, this was the only way to start using space craft.

Quote
The only image of a Vasudan city we have may either be a sheltered city, due to the small mountain range, or the surface part of an underground city, possibly a space port.  If it is underground, the mountains may not, in fact, be mountains, but slag left over from burrowing down into the ground.  The shapes, however, are far too steep to be slag, so it's likely this is a sheltered city.

There are still quite a few life forms on Vasuda prime, most of which are desert like creatures probably feeding near oasis like areas scattered across the planet's surface.  It is likely that there are no sea creatures to speak of, and the only animals with any leanings toward living in water are those found in caves.  The rest of the animals would likely develop a hardened skin to resist the cosmic rays that likely bombard the planet on a regular basis.  Most would conserve water in any way possible, creating species that are boney, dry creatures, using water only for the most important parts of the body (heart, brain, blood).
 


The image shows that the newest vasudan cities were indeed built on the surface as they were so huge in dimensions they literally could not be built underground (also imagine the problems with exhaust fumes, the ground water, etc.) – The life forms on Vasuda would be indeed split in two groups:

The suface inhabitants: Little desert animals that can live in the poisounous gases and fluids, eating each other and ultimatively living of the few surface plants that are left (with long roots going for the ground water).

The fishies (vasudanswuvfishies): The main part of the life forms probably lived in the water caves and rivers underground, protected from the extreme temperatures, poisonous gases and having clear water to drink.

The Vasudans, combining both aspects (theyre very resistant to the influences on the surface, as well as adapted to underground life) will thus have prevailed as the lifeform on Vasuda.

At least thats my 2 ct. :)
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Offline aldo_14

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The Nature of Vasuda Prime
NB:  if you want the fs1 cb anis, they're on the first cd in the data directory.  Seems it aint an option to copy them to the hard drive.





« Last Edit: December 23, 2003, 02:38:54 pm by 181 »

 

Offline Knight Templar

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The Nature of Vasuda Prime
Duuuunne....
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Offline Drew

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The Nature of Vasuda Prime
so im assuming Evolution has been proven in the Fs2 universe...
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Offline Ace

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Re: The Nature of Vasuda Prime
Quote
Originally posted by Eishtmo
"Twin continents"


I don't recall twin continents mentioned, could you please post up the comment in FS1/2 with that? :)

Anyway, if there are two continents, it could be a "Silt Sea" between them.

Quote
Since Vasudans are said to have similar respiratory and atmospheric needs to humans, then the atmosphere of Vasuda Prime is likely ~20% oxygen, ~79% nitrogen, the result of a long periods of life on the planet.  The atmosphere is also approximately the same thickness at sea level as that on Earth.  This indicates that Vasuda Prime is at least as big as Earth (and thus able to hold on to a similarly thick atmosphere) and at one point likely had a great deal of life on the surface.  The fact that it no longer does is likely the result of the planet's core cooling and volcanic activity ceasing at some point in the past.  This indicates that it, as well as the entire Vasuda system, is far older than Earth and its sun.

All that we do know, is that they can comfortably operate in a Terran environment. Vasuda Prime might have had a higher CO2 level, or a high amount of inert Nobel gasses.

I would actually say that Vasuda Prime is slightly larger than Earth. Vasudans have more strength than humans (as seen in the outtake of a Vasudan and Terran fighting). The higher gravity would explain the increased muscle mass, and Vasudans are tall to have more skin surface area to reduce heat.

Quote
How old can be determined by an examination of the habitation zone of a star.  Vasuda Prime is said to be the fourth planet from the Vasuda star.  Assuming that it is the same distance as Mars, the fourth planet in the Sol system, and that the Vasuda star is the same type of star as the sun, then the habitation zone of the star, the region in which life as we know it can easily evolve and develop, would propagate out at a steady rate as the star grow hotter (all this needs to be confirmed, and thus is all guess work at this time).  The rate at which it grows out would determine when, approximately, life appeared on Vasuda Prime.  Now, since Vasuda Prime is likely geologically dead, then the rate at which the core of a planet the size of Earth would take to cool could give an approximate age of the planet as it stands today, give or take a several million years.


That's a big assumption. For all we know Vasuda Prime's orbit is closer then that of Venus, and there could be a gas-giant orbiting within Mercury's orbit as well as a rocky planet even closer, similar to the setup that a lot of extrasolar systems discovered so far have. (Jovian planets close to the star)

So pretty much, any configuration is possible for the system.

Quote
Animals would have quickly broken into two groups:  Those that huddle around oasis's, creating small pockets of species, and those who migrate between them.  Those that stay in one place would likely appear as different as species stranded on separate islands on Earth, conforming to the individual environments of the oasis.  Those who moved between them would either require an excellent water storage and distribution system, much like a camel, great speed to cross the deserts as quickly as possible, or flight.  The Apsu-Hek was likely a flying creature (given the design of the Tauret fighter), and could easily, and often, moved between the various oasis's of the planet.  This would make an excellent symbol of the Vasudan diaspora.  Though I can't say for sure, the little black dots flying around the Vasudan city could, in fact, be Apsu-Hek's.  Or Shivan and Vasudan ships, hard to say which from the angle.


The Apsu-Hek if similar to the shape of the Tauret would either be a glider (unlikely due to the lack of large plantlife) or a creature walking on all fours. The reason for this is because it has a very thin profile, and the four limbs are not a setup for flying as seen on Earth. Considering the similarities between Vasudan and Terran physiology, potential evolutionary niches on both planets would be very similar. Without large trees, there isn't going to be a Vasudan "flying squirrel" so the Apsu-Hek is probably on the ground, using its large surface area to cool itself. Flyers also need a high metabolism, and with a barely habitable planet they'd need to be scavengers. Since the Vasudan reconstruction was slow but steady progress as opposed to scavenging the pieces of the VPE, I think the Apsu-Hek being the slow but steady critter on all fours is a better image :)

In the command briefing image, those are Vasudan ships trying to flee before the Lucifer destroys the city. This assumption is pretty safe to make due to all of the refugees and the evacuation of the system during the Shivan attack. Plus, considering the small size of the command briefing image, and the small size that a flying or gliding Apsu-Hek would need, it is also safe to assume that the flying objects in the distance are large and are also much larger then any flying creature would be.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2003, 04:27:24 pm by 72 »
Ace
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Offline karajorma

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The Nature of Vasuda Prime
Quote
Originally posted by Drew
so im assuming Evolution has been proven in the Fs2 universe...


It's been proven in this one.  Take your ignorance and attempted thread hijack elsewhere if you disagree.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2003, 04:30:01 pm by 340 »
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Offline Drew

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The Nature of Vasuda Prime
:wtf:

just asked a question, there is no need to jump me.  your assumption that i was trying to hijack the thread was unesscesary... i only wanted that information.
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Offline karajorma

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Your question was pointless and very close to trolling. Eishtmo refered to evolution in the first post so it was obvious that this was a discussion involving that as a basic premiss.
This isn't an evolution vs creationism discussion so kindly refrain from attempting to make it one.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

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Offline Drew

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ar... whatever.
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Offline jdjtcagle

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Offline Lightspeed

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Re: Re: The Nature of Vasuda Prime
Quote
Originally posted by Ace


[...]

 


seems we're looking at it exactly the same way. Couldn't agree more :)
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Offline Eishtmo

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Tango, eh?  Yeah, I guess I'll have to dig out the disks.  Thanks for that.  Aldo, where did you get those pics?  For, unless there was some miracle and you took them yourself, those look just like the original images I had imbedded in the document.  I thought they were lost when I copied and pasted.  No matter, makes life easier in some ways.

Okay, on to the stuff:

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Lightspeed says

Volcanic activity doesnt have to do with the amount of water that can be found on the surface of the planet. Look at Io, it’s probably the most volcanic planet known to mankind and theres no water at all. The volcanoes erupt sulfur dioxide, which will then freeze solid and drop back to the ground. The whole surface of the planet is thus covered in sulfur dioxide ‘sulfur snow’ which will make any life improssible. Mars is also an example to see that. It’s volcanic activity is stronger than Earth’s but theres a lot less water.


Io's not a fair comparison.  It's smaller (Moon sized) for one, and it's been constantly active probably since it formed around the second biggest gravity well in the solar system.  Mars is a better one, but it again comes down to size.  Mars is about a third the size of Earth, so would, at best, have a third the amount of water.  That and it can be "boiled" off via solar rays and Mars' weak gravity is why Mars has low amounts of liquid.  Outgassing is, however, a theory, but a pretty well supported one.  Much like evolution.  But we won't get into that.

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It could be the result of long life periods, although personally i think in Vasuda’s case it isn’t. I’ll try to explain why.
First, the thickness of the atmosphere is not about the planet’s size. It actually depends on 2 factors:
- Gravity: Depends on the mass of the planet (not it’s size!) – so any planet could possibly handle enough atmosphere like Earth. It depends on which substances the planet is made of, which, in Vasuda’s case, would be a great deal of ‘fluffy’ stuff like sand. Vasuda would probably be bigger than Earth from that point of view.


Agreed.  Size is a guess.  Mass would be a more accurate term.  A small, really dense planet, could have the same gravity as Earth.  However, it is hinted at that Vasuda Prime is a reasource poor world, reasources being water and probably heavy metals (iron, nickel, iridium, uranium and whatnot) which are the densest materials we know of without going into things that would really throw this into the realm of science fiction.  Low amounts of these metals would actually lower the planet's mass, regardless of size.  In any case, all we have to go on is the atmospheric quote, so assuming it's the same size as Earth is as good a guess as any.

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- The second factor is the magnetic stability of the Planet. This mainly depends on the moons of a planet. When you look at Earth, the poles are stabilized by the Moon. On Mars, there isn’t a real moon anymore, and for that reason the poles shift a lot faster than those of earth. This will reduce the capability of the planet to retain the atmosphere, and it will also lead to desertification (*hint* Vasuda *hint* ) as the climate will suffer drastic changes as the poles move around.


Uh, where do you get this information?  I admit not to know everything (though I do know almost everything :)), but I never heard of the moon being a direct influence on planetary development, especially related to the magnetic field.  The magnetic field is created by the liquid iron in the core, not how the moons move around.  Could you give me a source for this please?

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I think Vasuda’s problem mainly was the instability of the magnetic poles (I assume Vasuda is missing big enough moons) which prevented a really stable growth to establish. As a further result of the shifting poles the volcanic activity will rise, there will be a lot of eruptions which will fill the atmosphere with poisonous gases killing the bit of life that has evolved on the surface, and also poisoning the water found on the surface (thus making it ‘undrinkable’ as mentioned in the quotes). The gases of the volcanic activity will then again act as greenhouse gases and even accelerate the temperature increasements on the surface. If you look at a Vasudan you will see that the Vasudan body is specifically designed for surviving in great heat. The body is protected by some sort of scales, with as much surface as possible to lose heat (look how ‘skinny’ they are).
So IMHO it’s nothing like core cooling, but about the opposite.


Again, I don't see where this is coming from.  Source please.

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the guess work is wrong, i’m afraid. First, I doubt Vasuda is the same distance as Mars, and then – What do we know about Vasuda’s sun? The planet will usually not leave it’s orbit around the sun, either. If there is a trend in a planets behaviour it’s clearly directed towards the sun, as it’s still the fourth planet of the system and the gravity will be stronger than the rotational force pushing the planet away from the sun. Life probably evolved in the youth of Vasuda, when there still were non-poisonous water oceans on the surface. The vasudans would then have developed as some kind of cave beings, drinking the ground water, and only coming to the surface when in dire need to, mostly living in the water caves way down below the surface (maybe that’s why there’s this vasudanswuvfishies trend? ) – The only life that could prevail was fishy- like things in the deep caves of Vasuda, as well as some little desert animals on the surface.


Completely agreed.  I have no clue on the type of star.  It's a guess to say that it has the same mass as our sun, and seems reasonable at the very least.  We just don't know, so I'll leave it at that.

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There are indeed a lot of differences between Mars and Vasuda like we get to see it in the Freespace Universe. Most of it is explained above though. There certainly are some similarities but the most things are really different.


Of course there are differences, Mars didn't (as far as we know) give rise to a race that could develop space flight.  I was just pointing out that it was probably their inspiration for the design, so a decent place to look at for clues of it's over all nature (look at the pics of the surface, with the large valley like thing, looks just like Mars too me, aside from coloring).  Remember, a lot of this is rambling, trying to get things straight in my mind if no where else.

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Of course, with my theory this doesn’t work anymore
Instead it would be something like:

Vasuda Prime was formed very much the same way as other planetary bodies. The life conditions soon developed making the planet very hospitable and life friendly. The main life evolved on Vasuda, but soon things were about to come to an abrupt end.

At this point of Vasuda’s history some tragic events took place. One theory would be that one of Vasuda’s moons was hit by a meteor which would destabilize the poles on Vasuda. The other theory could be that they slowly destabilized over the millions of years. Whichever way, the climate on Vasuda was facing drastic changes as the poles wandered around the surface, making deserts where oceans had been. Produced by the strong pole shifts, the volacnic activity rose to an abnormal level. The atmosphere was poisoned with sulfur gases, and the oceans were poisoned, made uninhabitable and undrinkable.

However, life had already developed. And once there is life, it will not easily be extinguished. There’s nothing as durable as life. So the life forms went underground, living in the cooler parts of Vasuda, and using the water and minerals that could be found in subterranean caves. The situation on the surface would be getting desperate. The volcanoes emmitting loads of greenhouse gases, the poles shifting around, and any plants dead. Soon Vasuda’s surface had become a desert, very hot at daytime, and very cold during the night. The Vasudans evolved as a species living underground and only crossing the surface when they had to.


A cataclysm, eh?  It could happen I suppose, it's not like things like this don't happen.  My big problem is the moon/magnetic field thing which simply doesn't click.  It's feesable, but I prefer a much more natural, long term development cycle rather than an abrupt one.  It's also easier to prove given the limited information we have, which isn't much.  We can use geology and physics to explain most, if not all, of the same events over an extended period of time (billions of years isn't much to a planet) rather than in one big bang.

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The water would be, in my theory, be poisonous, and the main Vasudan cities for that reason, would be built underground. Hoewever, when the cities kept growing bigger they could not be kept underground, and so the Vasudans for the first time really moved upwards and started building on the surface. The actual rooms still a bit under the surface, but not really underground anymore. Also, this was the only way to start using space craft.


That last bit was guess work, but if the water 'boiled' away, it would be just as effective to describe the water as "undrinkable."  We can't drink sea water, for example, too many heavy salts.  But a Vasudan, from a very dry enviroment, might be equiped to handle it quite easily.  The Dead Sea, on the other hand, would likely be too much for even them.  And Vasudan cities are described as "domed, sheltered, and underground," not just underground.  An important point that.

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The image shows that the newest vasudan cities were indeed built on the surface as they were so huge in dimensions they literally could not be built underground (also imagine the problems with exhaust fumes, the ground water, etc.) – The life forms on Vasuda would be indeed split in two groups:

The suface inhabitants: Little desert animals that can live in the poisounous gases and fluids, eating each other and ultimatively living of the few surface plants that are left (with long roots going for the ground water).

The fishies (vasudanswuvfishies): The main part of the life forms probably lived in the water caves and rivers underground, protected from the extreme temperatures, poisonous gases and having clear water to drink.

The Vasudans, combining both aspects (theyre very resistant to the influences on the surface, as well as adapted to underground life) will thus have prevailed as the lifeform on Vasuda.


Using vasudanswuvfishies as evidence that they had lots of fish isn't all that supportable, now is it?  It's like the headz thing, I seriously doubt Vasudan's collect human headz.  They're jokes, nothing more.  Still, aside from that you've missed some evolutionarly points.  Intellegence is what made the Vasudan's the dominate life form (like us), not their ablitiy to live underground.  And other animals would have adapted to the "poisounous gasses and water."  They do all the time on Earth, it just takes a while.  There are animals living right now where humans can only go in what are basically space suits, from hot, sulfurous pools to deep sea vents.  Life can adapt to a new enviroment, life does.

Next:

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Ace

I don't recall twin continents mentioned, could you please post up the comment in FS1/2 with that?


Ceritanly, the Vasudan tech room description from FS1:

"Both of the twin continents of Vasuda Prime are almost entirely desert, and most of the above-ground water is, even by Vasudan standards, undrinkable."

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Anyway, if there are two continents, it could be a "Silt Sea" between them.


Silt sea, that's a possiblity.  Though that would indicate a relativily flat planet as most of the silt would have to have come from somewhere (mountian streams and the like), which would be further evidence of a geologically dead world, or one where the water is being 'boiled' off.  I use quotes because that's not what's really happening, it's that cosmic rays tend to energize molecules like water and blow them out into space (or rip them apart, then it blows the pieces away).

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All that we do know, is that they can comfortably operate in a Terran environment. Vasuda Prime might have had a higher CO2 level, or a high amount of inert Nobel gasses.

I would actually say that Vasuda Prime is slightly larger than Earth. Vasudans have more strength than humans (as seen in the outtake of a Vasudan and Terran fighting). The higher gravity would explain the increased muscle mass, and Vasudans are tall to have more skin surface area to reduce heat.


Both possible.  I was just guessing on what the planetary atmosphere is like.  However, the line in the Freespace Reference Bible does say "nearly the same atmospheric & respiration needs," so the 20/80 mix is reasonable to say the least.  The larger Vasuda Prime I discounted due to the my ideas that the planet is geologically dead.  The larger the planet, the longer it takes to cool off, so it couldn't be much bigger than Earth or the entire planet would be really, really old.  My big problem here is that I can't find a formula to calculate how long it takes for a core to cool.  If I could, we might actually make some progress toward an age.

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That's a big assumption. For all we know Vasuda Prime's orbit is closer then that of Venus, and there could be a gas-giant orbiting within Mercury's orbit as well as a rocky planet even closer, similar to the setup that a lot of extrasolar systems discovered so far have. (Jovian planets close to the star)
So pretty much, any configuration is possible for the system.


Very true.  We don't know the layout.  I do seem to remember reading somewhere (and it's late so I won't try to find it right now) that the models for systems like that, with a gas giant close in, don't really allow for many other rocky planets in the system.  Here I used the most suitable model, our solar system, which I would guess would be the insperation for it's creation (like the Mars connection here).

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The Apsu-Hek if similar to the shape of the Tauret would either be a glider (unlikely due to the lack of large plantlife) or a creature walking on all fours. The reason for this is because it has a very thin profile, and the four limbs are not a setup for flying as seen on Earth. Considering the similarities between Vasudan and Terran physiology, potential evolutionary niches on both planets would be very similar. Without large trees, there isn't going to be a Vasudan "flying squirrel" so the Apsu-Hek is probably on the ground, using its large surface area to cool itself. Flyers also need a high metabolism, and with a barely habitable planet they'd need to be scavengers. Since the Vasudan reconstruction was slow but steady progress as opposed to scavenging the pieces of the VPE, I think the Apsu-Hek being the slow but steady critter on all fours is a better image.


A turtle?  Well, that might work.  Truth is, though, we have no idea what an Apsu-HeK is, nor do we know the nature of plant life on Vasuda Prime.  Your guess is as good as mine on this end, though I think yours might actually have more heft behind it.

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In the command briefing image, those are Vasudan ships trying to flee before the Lucifer destroys the city. This assumption is pretty safe to make due to all of the refugees and the evacuation of the system during the Shivan attack. Plus, considering the small size of the command briefing image, and the small size that a flying or gliding Apsu-Hek would need, it is also safe to assume that the flying objects in the distance are large and are also much larger then any flying creature would be.


Yeah, just rewatched the ani.  Those are ships, not living creatures.  Oh well, it was a nice thought.  I could just see huge flocks of these things flying around oasis's and probably Vasudan cities as well, endearing them to the people.  When an oasis is destroyed, they'd move on to the next one, like the Vasudan's did when Vasuda Prime was destroyed.  The word "diaspora" has a lot of weight there.

Well, sorry if I sound a touch confused, it's very late and I likely won't get back here until after Christmas.  Oh, and if you want to discuss evolution and creationism, go somewhere else, thank you.

Later, and Merry Christmas, or whatever.
Warpstorm  Bringing Disorder to Chaos, And Eventually We'll Get It Right.

---------

I know there is a method, but all I see is madness.

 

Offline aldo_14

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Originally posted by Eishtmo
Tango, eh?  Yeah, I guess I'll have to dig out the disks.  Thanks for that.  Aldo, where did you get those pics?  


Th cbanim on the FS1 cd. Said it in the post.

Oh, and i reckone the Apsu-Hek is like a flat turtle.

 

Offline Eishtmo

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Actually, what I meant is that those look like the same pics I took when I wrote the original document and embedded them in the word file.  It was weird suddenly seeing them, in the same order.
Warpstorm  Bringing Disorder to Chaos, And Eventually We'll Get It Right.

---------

I know there is a method, but all I see is madness.

 

Offline Lightspeed

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Okay, I only found crappy ones, but here they are. I had read it in some book. :)

I'll try to find something better but here you are, anyway:

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The Moon affects the survival of life on Earth in three ways: Lunar tides, stabilizing the tilt of Earth’s axis, and slowing down Earth’s rate of rotation.(7) The Moon’s gravitational pull on Earth regulates ocean tides, causing the sea waters to be cleansed and their nutrients replenished.  


The size and distance of the moon are just right to stabilize Earth’s axis tilt at an angle of 23.5 degrees and keeps the axis from wandering between the gravitational pulls of the Sun and Jupiter.(8) Earth’s tilt angle is a critical factor in maintaining mild climates and regulating the amount of sunlight on the polar and equatorial regions.  

The planet Mercury, whose axis angle is nearly perpendicular and who is the closest planet to the Sun, has an extremely hot surface at the horizon and extremely frozen surfaces at the poles. In contrast, the planet Uranus has a 90-degree tilt with one pole exposed to the sunlight for half a year, while the other pole remains in darkness.

The Moon is nearly a third the size of Earth. All the other planets in the solar system have moons which are trivial in weight compared to their mother planet. Not so for the Earth. Our Earth-Moon system has very strongly influenced the magnetic field of the Earth making it one hundred times larger than it should be. This magnetism wraps the Earth in an invisible shield that deflects many of the life-threatening particles streaming from the Sun.


http://www.christiantrumpetsounding.com/fingerprints.htm


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So there is no reason to eliminate Earth-like planets with more tilt than Earth from future searches for life beyond the solar system. For instance, it is not only the Earth's tilt but the proximity of its nearest celestial object that makes the planet hospitable: our own Moon is believed to play an important role in Earth's habitability . Because the Moon helps stabilize the tilt of the Earth's rotation, it prevents the Earth from wobbling between climatic extremes. Without the Moon, seasonal shifts would likely outpace even the most adaptable forms of life.


http://www.astrobio.net/news/print.php?sid=576

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Another interesting effect might be the immersion of Earth in Jupiter's immense magnetosphere, potentially disrupting Earth's magnetosphere and resulting in atypical auroral activity and magnetic storms. A close passage of Jupiter might well remove the Moon from orbit, with long-term consequences for the stability of Earth's tilt and climate. (The gravitational influence of the Moon acts to stabilize the Earth's axial tilt of 23.5 degrees, preventing the large oscillations that are thought to afflict Mars' climate on 100,000-year timescales.)


http://www.geocities.com/area51/nebula/4415/sciencestuff.html

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This is not the case for the tilt variations of Mars, however. Mars has a much greater range of tilt variations from around 11 degrees to 38 degrees. And there is no well defined period. the motion of Mars' tilt axis is an unpredictable wobbling around. It always lies between 11 degrees and 38 degrees but within that range it is very difficult to predict what the titlt will be at any time. Most ofthe planets have somewhat chaotic tilt variations. It is believed that the Earth may also have had a chaotic tilt variability in the past but that the presence of the Moon has acted to gravitationally stabilize the tilt by "holding it steady".


http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/users/jcm/Topic2/Topic2.html
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Offline StratComm

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Lightspeed, I think the problem is that you referenced the moon as giving Earth a magnetic stability rather than a rotational one.  The distinction might seem trivial but it is far from it, for fairly evident reasons.  The theory that the moon acts to stabilize Earth's rotation at some fixed angle makes sense, but the connection to magnetic stability seems a little more stretched.  I can't say that any of those sources (aside from the last perhaps) are credible enough to cite by themselves, so they aren't do-all, end-all solutions to this discussion.  I don't know what to think of Astrobiology Magazine, but it has to be geared more on speculation than actual facts.

Mars is more than capable of holding an oxygen-nitrogen atmosphere (it would not be as thick as Earth's, but it would still hold and would certainly be thick enough to support life) if the conditions were right for it.  The Martain atmosphere is what it is because of the planet's composition; there simply isn't enough water on or near the surface to sustain an ecosystem like Earth's.  This is likely due to planetary cooling, because as a planet cools any water on its surfece gradually seeps down into the core as the region of the planet's interior hot enough to vaporize water shrinks.  My guess is that Vasuda is only slightly smaller than earth, of similar composition but with fewer resources in the crust, that is in the later stages of surface cooling and little water still remains on the surface.  Its desertification as the oceans shrank is the event that triggered the rise of intelligent life (the Vasudans) and the planet is gradually turning uninhabitable (it's close already by the time it is deatroyed).

As for the composition of the atmosphere of Vasuda, I will say that the chances of Noble gasses existing in a planetary atmosphere of a rocky planet are not very high.  Basic physics: monatomic gasses have a much higher average velocity at any given temperature than diatomic gasses such as oxygen or nitrogen, and easily escape a planet's gravitational pull.  You get to gas giant (or maybe even star) magnitudes before you have a strong enough gravitational field to keep in a noble gas.  I saw that earlier and I can't resist saying something about it.
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Last edited by StratComm on 08-23-2027 at 08:34 PM

 

Offline Lightspeed

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Lightspeed, I think the problem is that you referenced the moon as giving Earth a magnetic stability rather than a rotational one. The distinction might seem trivial but it is far from it, for fairly evident reasons. The theory that the moon acts to stabilize Earth's rotation at some fixed angle makes sense, but the connection to magnetic stability seems a little more stretched. I can't say that any of those sources (aside from the last perhaps) are credible enough to cite by themselves, so they aren't do-all, end-all solutions to this discussion. I don't know what to think of Astrobiology Magazine, but it has to be geared more on speculation than actual facts.


Have a look what I wrote about consequences though, you'll see exactly what I meant with it :)
Changing the tilt of the rotational axis of a planet will definately cause the climate to... err... face drastic changes and desertification. Any planet with instable tilt will also tend to have a higher volcanic activity.

As for those sources, I said they were crappy but they were the best I could find in my limited time. Feel free to search on your own. I have seen it in a reliable source (actually a book I got, which seems pretty reliable on its facts).
Modern man is the missing link between ape and human being.