More proof of evolution

[ZmaN]

Aldo

God did take every living animal...
The reason dinosaurs died was because he DID NOT WANT THEM TO LIVE....  It was to become a threat to man kind..  After the flood was over, the bible says hat God put the Fear of Man into all animals...  If he had put that in dinosaurs, you wouldnt be alive...
There is much evidence of the flood actually coming...  God didnt flip his fingers because he has givin all of us a free will...  To just take you would go against is policy, so to speak....
You asked was the water compressed...  No crap it was compressed...  The waterabove the earth was lingering in the atmosphere...  Its totally possible because all the ceans and rivers and wells were full for Adam and Eve to drink out of...  It was rain just like todays rain, except larger amounts had come down..

I gotta go...
This is a preface..
I will have the full paper later this afternoon

[ZmaN]

As for my age, you really want me to rip my birth certificate out?
God you people are so daring...

[Ghostavo]

From a purely curious point of view...

Did the ark take termites aboard?

[karajorma]

I will have the full paper later this afternoon

I'll leave it to Aldo to rebutt all the comments you just made because I certainly don't want to spoil his fun but I hope there is more logic in this full paper than what you just wrote. There wasn't a single logical rebuttal to any of Aldo's points in there.

[aldo_14]

Aldo

God did take every living animal...
The reason dinosaurs died was because he DID NOT WANT THEM TO LIVE....  It was to become a threat to man kind..  After the flood was over, the bible says hat God put the Fear of Man into all animals...  If he had put that in dinosaurs, you wouldnt be alive...
There is much evidence of the flood actually coming...  God didnt flip his fingers because he has givin all of us a free will...  To just take you would go against is policy, so to speak....
You asked was the water compressed...  No crap it was compressed...  The waterabove the earth was lingering in the atmosphere...  Its totally possible because all the ceans and rivers and wells were full for Adam and Eve to drink out of...  It was rain just like todays rain, except larger amounts had come down..

I gotta go...
This is a preface..
I will have the full paper later this afternoon

Oh dear.

Firslty, animals don't have the fear of man.  That's why carnivores like sharks, alligators, cheetahs, etc attack man (because we're fragile & slow prey compared to, say, a gazelle).  Would you go out on a walk, unarmed, in the middle of the African plains?

The water was not lingering in the atmosphere.  It is impossible for it linger in the atmosphere, I already pointed out why with respect to atmospheric pressure changes and the requirement for that vapour to be superheated.  Do you know how much water is actually within the average raincloud?  About 1 cup.  Look at mist/fog and how dense it is (or rather, is not); that's nothing more that a low-level cloud.

Water is also highly incompressible (when it is a vapour, such as cloud, molecules are widely spaced.  When it is compressed, it becomes 'solid' liquid; liquid water is highly incompressible and hence is used as part of - for example - g-cushioning on chairs).  Having that amount of water 'compressed' up there would defy gravity (and it'd be liquid).  And, again, it'd have massive climatological effects due to the impact upon sunlight reaching the earth.

Dinosaurs did not exist at the same time as man.  Basic geology (the sediment layers used to date remains) show as much (lets not forget a lot of this sediment/strata dating was created by ardent creationists prior to Darwins revelations).  Also, this wouldn;t account for the animals that were extinct before the dinosaurs - unless you're seriously suggesting mankind was wandering around during the pre-cambrian, and God somehow just kept creating loads and loads of hostile animals (oops, eh), until having a flood.

It's interesting how you use  free will ifor a general excuse, but cannot comprehend the possibility of having free thought.   If you're going 'God took every living animal', then doesn't that mean the whole ark thing is rubbish?  Because there's no need for an ark, or free will, or God to even tell Noah if he's just going to scoop up everything anyways.  In fact, why have the flood?  Just remove the big nasty dinosaurs!

And, well, there's loads of inaccuracies here.  For example, one well does not make 40 feet of global water coverage, nor explain why that water was never seen before or since.  Have you ever even considered taking a rational look at the known facts here?

Tell you what, point me to 'much evidence'.  Because a precursory examination of ancient civillisation and geological records, not to mention the biodiversity and animal territory ranges, of the world today makes it blatantly obvious that there was no global flood.  Unless you care to explain how Egypt was miraculously spared from even noticing a flood?

[Shade]

God did take every living animal...

How many species were there then, exactly? The same number we have today plus the ones made extinct since the flood?

Simply put, if you say yes, the boat was about 2.000 times the size of the Titanic, which I call a pretty damn impressive feat of engineering for just Noah and his wife to have undertaken. Hats off to them.

But if you say no, then you basically acknowlege evolution. Not nessecarily meaning that a god of your choosing didn't start it all in the first place and simply left evolution in as a means to cut down on his workload. But if he did have all the species on the boat back then, and there are more species now than could have fit on his boat, then where did the rest come from if not from evolution?

So you see, there are some pretty good reasons not to take the bible literally. Because if you do, you will quickly find that there are multiple instances where the world of today could simply not exist if things happened as described. Humanity, for one, would have died out after Cain and Abel, given that there were no women around except for their own mother.

But even if you accept all of it at face value (blissfully ignoring the things that would lead to the world not existing, of course) you can still accept evolution. Nothing in the bible rules it out. It basically says god created everything, but nowhere does it say he forces everything to remain static without ever changing. So evolution is actually quite compatible with the bible, a fact which as many others have already mentioned has in fact been acknowledged by the likes of the Vatican.

[aldo_14]

“The Church joyfully accepts the real conquests of human knowledge.” (the Pope)

EDIT; it occurs to me that this, er, report, will come just as I'm at work tomorrow.  Tsch.  Still, going by evidence so far it'll be claptrap based on random assertions with no attempt made at scientific or even cursory common sense examination.

[Flipside]

The thing about evolution being a theory no big deal. It's still a theory that the moon goes round the Earth, despite the fact we've gone up there and watched it do it. Why is it still a theory? Because scientists don't like to say 'this is undeniable fact' . Observable items of data have suggested that the Moon goes round the Earth, and is in the general habit of doing so, but no-one is going to say that it is a 'unchangeable limit of knowledge' that the moon goes round the Earth, it is merely doing so currently, because if the moon then plummets into the Earth, the scientists' career would be ruined. Oh, and we'd all be dead.

And you hit real theory the moment you start asking the question 'Why does the moon go round the Earth?' That's what theory does, it challenges itself constantly, deliberately stress tests itself and tries to find errors, it is that constant testing to breaking point which makes science, to my mind, far more likely to be right, because it tries to accept the possibility that it could be wrong. Admittedly Creationism is a bad example for getting scientists to admit that it does fall within the phase space of possibility, but, if you taught science that way, you'd have to teach every phase space of possibility, which is literally hundreds of thousands of theories. Science is a matter of asking the questions 'Why?' and 'How?' These are two questions that a lot of people don't ask enough of their own beliefs.

[Wild Fragaria]

Aldo

God did take every living animal...
The reason dinosaurs died was because he DID NOT WANT THEM TO LIVE....  It was to become a threat to man kind..  After the flood was over, the bible says hat God put the Fear of Man into all animals...  If he had put that in dinosaurs, you wouldnt be alive...

So kiddo who created other living organisms?  Did Satan created deadly the viruses and bacteria or you think GOD did?

I do not care what you believe.  Please just stop the nonsense explanation as for how and why things happened when you can not even prove GOD is the one holding responsible.

[nuclear1]

You asked was the water compressed...  No crap it was compressed...  The waterabove the earth was lingering in the atmosphere...  Its totally possible because all the ceans and rivers and wells were full for Adam and Eve to drink out of...  It was rain just like todays rain, except larger amounts had come down..

On a similar point, notice how the lifespan of everyone before the flood is significantly higher than the lifespans of those after the flood. This was not "just rain, but in larger amounts" that fell during this flood; it apparently was enough to cause factors that would have resulted in a shortage of human lifespan in the Middle East (skin cancer resulting from increased sun exposure, par exampla).

[aldo_14]

You asked was the water compressed...  No crap it was compressed...  The waterabove the earth was lingering in the atmosphere...  Its totally possible because all the ceans and rivers and wells were full for Adam and Eve to drink out of...  It was rain just like todays rain, except larger amounts had come down..

On a similar point, notice how the lifespan of everyone before the flood is significantly higher than the lifespans of those after the flood. This was not "just rain, but in larger amounts" that fell during this flood; it apparently was enough to cause factors that would have resulted in a shortage of human lifespan in the Middle East (skin cancer resulting from increased sun exposure, par exampla).

I have a feeling, also, that that much water wouldn't simply 'vanish' post-flood; you are talking about an amount sufficient to increase the globes diameter by over 40 feet (flood waters 20 feet deep at the highest mountain) and AFAIK there is no possible explanation for such a gargantuan amount of water popping in and out of existence.  Beyond His Noodly Appendage, of course.  Albeit this thread is going a bit OT vis-a-vis Noahs Ark anyways, as it's one of the easiest literal interpreations to debunk, alongside the flat circular earth fixed in space.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Evolution only interferes with young Earth creationism. In other words those people who believe that the Earth is 6000 years old cause the bible says so

Heh, not even the bible says so. It's Anglican bisshop Usher who said so based on what he read in the bible (the "begats"). But there's no date in the book. So Usher was making an interpretation, and one that is used plenty by these bible-literalists (which apparently, they only are when it suits them)

oh, and maybe everyone should read this
http://www.arktimes.com/Articles/ArticleViewer.aspx?ArticleID=e7a0f0e1-ecfd-4fc8-bca4-b9997c912a91
It's about the true effects of ID/creationism: namely trying to destroy (yes, destroy) science-education and science one step at a time. After all, if you want to kill of evolution you'll need to do more than just take out the biology side of it, you'll need to deal with geology too (and many other disciplines including nuclear physics, paleontology, medicine, etc.)

[Black Wolf]

God did take every living animal...
The reason dinosaurs died was because he DID NOT WANT THEM TO LIVE....  It was to become a threat to man kind..  After the flood was over, the bible says hat God put the Fear of Man into all animals...  If he had put that in dinosaurs, you wouldnt be alive...

Tell me, please, how a psittacosaurus or a protoceratops coul;d be any more dangerous to man than a pig or a cow.

[Charismatic]

I do not have time to reply to what has been said, ATM. Im buzy tonight. All i have time for is this.

Here, ladies and gentlemen, is the much awaited report of mine:

EVOLUTION
Many people today want to know how the world and everything began. None of us today was there when it happened so we rely on beliefs and science to tell us how the world began. Both sides (Creationists and Evolutionists) cannot be completely proven or disproven, so in that light, I will discuss the main points of controversy of both sides and explain both points of view in hopes to give you a better understanding of each side.

In short, Evolution is the belief that all living beings originated from earlier species over millions of years, and the world was created with a mass explosion of built-up energy. Evolution also believes that man came from apes, and other earlier species before that.
Creationism, on the other hand believes in a higher being (God) who created the world, and all its life forms (as they are) in 6 days (According to Genesis). Creationism believes that God created man just the way we are; we did not ‘evolve’ from earlier species.

 Linus Pauling, grouped evidences of evolution in four main categories. The first being, fossil records of changes in earlier species. Second, the chemical and anatomical similarities of related life forms. Third, geographic distribution of related species. And last, the recorded genetic changes in living organisms over several generations.

1)  Fossil Records. Summary- Fossil and animal remains found in sediment are claimed to show changes in the creatures, through time. Extinct species, which are similar to major groups of organisms, are claimed to be proof that species can evolve. The fossil record of similar species is incomplete.
 
2)  Chemical and Anatomical Similarities. Summary- All things are similar in their basic anatomic structure’s. All living things are similar in that their cells can create complex structures, and only a few elements are needed. Many common proteins are made out of a few basic elements (Pauling says 6 of 92 common elements). Plants and animals inherit genes, as well as its characteristics, from their parent. Pauling claims most plant like living things inherit the energy needed for growth from sunlight, and as I said before, many of them are similar way. Pauling says, "This is the case with the vertebrates, which are the animals that have internal skeletons. The arms of humans, the forelegs of dogs and cats, the wings of birds, and the flippers of whales and seals all have the same types of bones (humorous, radius, and ulna) because they have retained these traits of their shared common ancient vertebrate ancestor."1  (Linus Pauling)
 
3)  Geographic Distribution of Related Species. Summary- Each area geographically has its own animal communities, all unique. Australia and other islands do not have inland animals, as they have their own indigenous species. Land mammals are non existent in the islands, yet they have marsupials . Pauling says,  "Each of these places had a great number of plant, insect, and bird species that were found nowhere else in the world."1(Linus Pauling)
 
4)  Genetic Changes Thorough Generations. Summary - Thousands of years ago, at several key times, the earth’s environments changed drastically. When the changes became intolerable to the species and inhabitants of the time, a widespread death occurred. The few survivors became tolerant of the change, immune so to speak, and their offspring were also. So the slow evolution and changes of the species is supposed to occur in this pattern. This is called "Natural Selection". Species that grow and reproduce many offspring in a short time evolve faster. They can adapt and develop immune quickly because of the faster rates they grow and breed. In the process of a species evolving, it eventually derives into several similar species. Man and apes are very similar in appearance and bone structure, so man is believed to have come from apes and their ancestors. Their similarities mean that they all came from the same ancestor canine species.

WHERE IT ALL STARTED.
Evolution
A man named Charles Darwin, started the theory of evolution .4 (Bruno J. Leone) He was a geologist on a ship that explored to find fossils of extinct species and study local species. As his journey progressed he began to doubt creation. The extinct species he found was similar to the existing species that was in the local areas; where he found the fossils. So, he came to believe that the species today came from extinct species. As the newer species adapted to the environment and changed throughout the generations, they became what we see today. He seemed to imply that someone or something created the first living being, which all the other living beings developed from.5 (Bruno J. Leone) At first, he only received partial support, but eventually, he gained massive support.

Creationism
Creationism comes from the belief of Christians, in the words of the Bible. The bible is said to be Gods own words, and it is Him that created the universe. Christians believe that God created the world in 6 days and all the life forms just as they are today. The bible is a book of many books combined into one. The book that contains the words about creation is called Genesis. This book was written by a man named Moses, and passed on through the generations. Moses did not witness the creation, but this knowledge of it was given to him by God himself, to write down for his descendants.  Christians believe this around the world.
As Evolutionists interpret the main theory of Evolution differently in the fine points, Christians, as do all people, do the same. I won’t be getting into all the different beliefs but I’ll get into some of them.

THE START OF THE UNIVERSE.
Evolutionists believe that there was nothing in space. All matter and energy, over the millions of years eventually built up at an immense temperature and density, and in a big bang, exploded creating an anomaly. That release of energy and matter created the universe or, the elements or cells that created the universe or the matter thereof. Life emerged from non-living material and means.

Creationists believe that there was nothing but God (and space, nothingness). God, decided to, and created the universe, in six days. In those six days he also created man, plants, and animals, and everything else. He created Adam and Eve, the first male and female, from which we are all descendants. This is all found in the Bible, in the Genesis book.

SIX DAYS - HOW LONG IS A DAY? THE CREATIONIST VIEW.
Creationist believe the world was created in six days as the bible said.  However, within this position there are a wide range of opinions on how long this six days actually was.  Some say creation was in six 24-hour days, others argue whether it was more or less than 24-hours. Some say it was thousands of years before God created the sun and stars to regulate how long was a day. 

Creationists generally believe that man has been on this earth approximately 6,000 years since creation.  They present a wide range of evidences to support this belief beyond simple blind faith.

One example might be food for dinosaurs. The amount of vegetation needed to support one large dinosaur is estimated to be three and a half tons of vegetation per day.  However, in the places where they find dinosaur fossils, they do not find plant fossils to serve as food for the large masses of dying and repopulating species.

The obvious design of cell structure, and of the human body itself is so complex that it could not develop by chance.  Life created by chance by non-living material is radically impossible.

As John K. G. Kramer says in his section of "In Six Days", "Secondly, numerous pieces of evidence fit a young earth. To mention a few: The historical records, the population growth, the helium content in this world, the missing neutrinos from the sun, the oscillation period of the sun, the decline of the earth’s magnetic field, the limited number of supernovas, radioactive halos, the mitochondria DNA pointing to one mother, and the increase in genetic diseases, etc."8 (John F. Ashton)

 WHY DID WE NOT EVOLVE?  CREATIONIST VIEW.
A common factor in DNA, cells, and all living things, is orderliness and design.  You can’t have design without a designer. Orderliness tells of intelligence to make order, some other being or force out there; God. DNA carries the information necessary to tell the cell how to duplicate, feed, and how to cooperate with other cells. All in all, to become a complex living being. There is no way that could ever occur by chance. Cells and DNA are extremely complex and orderly, as a certain cell is used for a certain task. And the DNA cell tells which cells to be what and do what, and passes the necessary information to each cell in full, become a living organism. There is no order in chance, or luck. This order, or design, points to a creator, God.

NATURAL SELECTION AND MUTATIONS.
Evolutionists believe that when the big bang occurred it also created ameba’s, which over millions of years mutated into living animals. Those animal species eventually faced catastrophes and intolerable climate changes, which led to mass extermination and few survivors. Those survivors either adapted and lived, or became immune to the event and they developed slightly changed characteristics. Those characteristic traits were passed down, to their descendants, which were immune from birth to the event that killed a lot of the pervious species.

This is the theory of Natural Selection. It may also be known as survival of the fittest. A species either died off, or a new species came from them. Traits and characteristics changed and allowed the current generations to adapt and survive. Species sometime derived into two species, instead of just one. So that’s how the many different species of animals today came to be. They kept mutating into what we see today. Foxes and Dogs and Wolfs all are similar species of the Canine Family. From the similarities, they say that they all came from the same ancient ancestor.

Creationists believe that God created all animals and living things at Creation. Though they may have changed since God created the universe, they didn’t change by natural selection or mutation, but changed within fixed limits. Not nearly as extreme as the Evolutionists believe. So the animals we see today are mainly how God created them at Creation.

MAN - APE OR NOT?
Evolutionists believe that by natural selection and mutation, over millions of years, man evolved from apes and apes from previous species. There was no special plan or design, just survial of the fittest. They believe also that the path of evolution of species is all by chance, that there is no guiding force. That the big bang and the creation of life from non-living material was chance and luck, same as the evolution of all species was.

Creationists believe God created man in one day, not over millions of years. Man today came from previous men who all are decendents of Adam and Eve, the first male and female. Some Christians believe that God made the universe and left it. Others believe he directs it, or directs the evolution of the universe.

 FOSSILS MILLIONS OR THOUSANDS OF YEARS?
Evolutionists believe that the fossils are an accumulation of years of dead animals and extinct species spanning a great amount of time (millions of years). These are found through several layers of the earth’s crust. Though there are gaps in the fossil record, it is to be expected, as it is a natural and hard process for a fossil to be created by nature. In order for a fossil to be produced, the dead carcass has to first be buried quickly, and then several layers of sediment and earth has to cover it. Then it lies in wait forming the fossil, until someone finds it and uncovers it. Wind and rain and other natural forces can destroy fossils when exposed and uncovered, so it reduces the number of fossils we are able to find.

Creationists believe that at a time when man and animals were many in number God caused the Noachian Flood, also called The Great Flood, to happen. Sonder says, "Perhaps the Flood had been caused by a sudden shift of the Earth’s axis that had spewed up massive amounts of underground water. First, smaller animals had been swept away, and they had settled into the mud according to their specific gravity, or, roughly, their weight. Fish had died and floated to the water’s surface. Larger animals and humans ran to hilltops and mountain tops to escape the flood, but finally it reached them. They drowned and where covered with sediment in the years that followed. In other words, the fossils in the strata were not the remains of organisms that lived at different times. All had perished together in the Great Flood." 6 (Ben Sonder)

This explains how fossils got to be at different levels of the earth’s crust. The flood, which mass moved a massive amount of dirt, to account for the many layers of crust over the fossils, is why many species are extinct today. This is not the cause of natural selection, or because they were a weak species or died off due to catastrophes; but if God created the world only a few thousand years ago, the fossils could not possibly be millions of years old.

INTELLIGENT DESIGN.
A faction called Intelligent Design, opposes evolution and denies Christianity at the same time. This group, which emerged in recent years, believes that there is no God or creator. They believe also that, the universe did not happen by chance, and evolution did not happen by natural selection (chance).  They believe, that the complexity of a living being, of all the cells, and the path in which evolution took, did not happen by chance. In theory, an intelligent force designed it that way, and sort of guided it along. Once again, not God, but an intelligent force. Some claim this is ‘creation science’ in disguise, and that it’s just another attempt to discredit evolution and be pro-creationist. According to Dwain L. Ford, in his section in the book "In Six Days", "Evidence for intelligent design is widespread in nature. For example:
A)  The motorized rotating flagellum of some bacteria.
B)  Blood clotting and its control.
C)  The high degree of organization within a typical cell.
D)  Cell division and its control.
E)  The system for protein synthesis.
F)  The human eye.
G)  The respiratory chain based in the highly organized mitochondria.
H)  The biosynthetic pathway in which acetyl CoA is the key compound." 7 (John F. Ashton)

CONCLUSION

Ben Sonder summarizes the main points of each position in his book as follows 3 (Ben Sonder) ,
"The Creationist Position
1. The universe, energy, and life were created from nothing.
2. Mutation and natural selection could not by themselves have brought about the development of all living things from a single organism.
3. The originally created kinds of plants and animals may have changed, but only within fixed limits.
4. Man and apes have separate ancestries.
5. The Earth’s geology can be explained by Catastrophism, including the occurrence of a worldwide flood.
6. The Earth and living kinds came into existence recently.

The Evolutionist Position
1. Through naturalistic processes, the universe emerged from disordered matter and life emerged from non-life.
2. Mutation and natural selection are sufficient to explain the development of present living kinds from simple earlier kinds.
3. Present living kinds emerged from simple earlier kinds by mutation and natural selection.
4. Man emerged form a common ancestor with apes.
5. The earth’s geology and the evolutionary sequence can be explained by uniformitarianism. *
6. The earth came into existence several billion years ago and life came into existence somewhat later.

*Note: uniformitarianism is a doctrine stating that modern geological processes are sufficient to account for all geological changes in the past."

Though my personal beliefs say that Evolutionism is not true, everyone is entitled to their opinion. They do have some facts, though they may be flawed in some form. They have fossils but the dating is flawed. Either way you have to decide for yourself, weather you will believe in Creationism or Evolutionism. As I said at the beginning, you can’t totally prove or disprove either side; so, it comes down to if you believe in God or chance.


 WORKS CITED
Books & Sites quoted from:
1) Linus Pauling, http://anthro.palomar.edu/evolve/evolve_3.htm
2) An Opposing Viewpoints Series, Bruno J. Leone, Book Editor. Daniel Leone, Publisher. Bonnie Szumski. Editoral Director. Scott Barbour, Managing Editor. "Creationism Vs. Evolution" (San Diego CA, Greenhaven Press, Inc. 2002)

3) Ben Sonder, "Evolutionism and Creationism"  (Franklin Watts a division of Grolier Publishing Co. Inc. 1999), pg. 100,101.

4)  Ibid., pg. 9.
5)  Ibid., pg. 14.
6)  Ibid., pg. 40.
7)  In Six Days, Edited by John F. Ashton. First reference from page 140.
8)  Ibid., pg 53. By John K. G. Kramer, who is a research scientist with Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada. He holds a B. S. (hons) from the university of manitoba, and M. S. In biochemistry from the University of Manitoba, a Ph.D. in biochemistry from the University of Minnesota and completed three years of post-doctoral studies as a Hormel fellow at the Hormel Institute and as a NRC fellow at the University of Ottawa.

Books looked in, but not quoted:
Bones of Contention: A creationist Assessment of Human Fossils, by Marvin L. Lubenow
Intelligent Design Creationism and Its Critics, Edited by Robert T. Pennock

[karajorma]

Where to begin?.....

The obvious design of cell structure, and of the human body itself is so complex that it could not develop by chance.  Life created by chance by non-living material is radically impossible.

MAJOR misunderstanding of evolution here. Evolution is not random. Mutation is random. Natural selection is the very antithesis of randomness. With this one sentence you have proved you don't understand evolution. Of course complex machinery like the human body can't arise by chance. No one said it could. You've completely failed to understand evolutionary theory if you think it is random chance. It is like me saying that I understand Christianity and then starting with "When Vishnu created the world...."

As John K. G. Kramer says in his section of "In Six Days", "Secondly, numerous pieces of evidence fit a young earth. To mention a few: The historical records, the population growth, the helium content in this world, the missing neutrinos from the sun, the oscillation period of the sun, the decline of the earth’s magnetic field, the limited number of supernovas, radioactive halos, the mitochondria DNA pointing to one mother, and the increase in genetic diseases, etc."8 (John F. Ashton)

You'd better explain those in more detail. Wikipedia is down and I can't point out the flaws in those arguments from nothing more than a title.

A common factor in DNA, cells, and all living things, is orderliness and design.  You can’t have design without a designer.

Patent nonsense. Crystals show a high degree of order without the need for a designer. Are you claiming that God designs ever single snowflake? Your argument is fallacious. You must prove that a designer is needed before you can claim this. So far you have not done this.

DNA carries the information necessary to tell the cell how to duplicate, feed, and how to cooperate with other cells. All in all, to become a complex living being. There is no way that could ever occur by chance. Cells and DNA are extremely complex and orderly, as a certain cell is used for a certain task. And the DNA cell tells which cells to be what and do what, and passes the necessary information to each cell in full, become a living organism.

Ignores the fact that DNA could have arisen from simpler self replicating molecules. The smallest of these are much much simpler than DNA or RNA. Certainly simple enough to have arisen by other methods. DNA may have simply usurped the place of these simpler molecules.

Evolutionists believe that when the big bang occurred it also created ameba’s

Complete and utter nonsense. They believe nothing of the kind.

Those animal species eventually faced catastrophes and intolerable climate changes, which led to mass extermination and few survivors. Those survivors either adapted and lived, or became immune to the event and they developed slightly changed characteristics. Those characteristic traits were passed down, to their descendants, which were immune from birth to the event that killed a lot of the pervious species.

Wrong yet again. Natural Selection is an ongoing process and does not require catastrophies to come into effect. This is a huge misunderstanding of what Natural Selection is.

This is the theory of Natural Selection. It may also be known as survival of the fittest. A species either died off, or a new species came from them.

Gross simplification. Natural selection occurs at the level of the individual not at the level of the species. It is hard to tell if this is just an oversimplicifcation or another misunderstanding.

Creationists believe that at a time when man and animals were many in number God caused the Noachian Flood, also called The Great Flood, to happen. Sonder says, "Perhaps the Flood had been caused by a sudden shift of the Earth’s axis that had spewed up massive amounts of underground water. First, smaller animals had been swept away, and they had settled into the mud according to their specific gravity, or, roughly, their weight. Fish had died and floated to the water’s surface. Larger animals and humans ran to hilltops and mountain tops to escape the flood, but finally it reached them. They drowned and where covered with sediment in the years that followed. In other words, the fossils in the strata were not the remains of organisms that lived at different times. All had perished together in the Great Flood."

Doesn't make sense at all. I think Aldo has already sufficiently pointed out the flaws in the possibility of a great flood in the first place so I won't restate his comments

if God created the world only a few thousand years ago, the fossils could not possibly be millions of years old.

Radiocarbon dating easily proves that those fossils are not only thousands of years old. There is simply too little carbon 14 present for them to be that young.

A faction called Intelligent Design, opposes evolution and denies Christianity at the same time. This group, which emerged in recent years, believes that there is no God or creator.

Wrong. The ID people are predominantly christian.

They believe also that, the universe did not happen by chance, and evolution did not happen by natural selection (chance).  They believe, that the complexity of a living being, of all the cells, and the path in which evolution took, did not happen by chance. In theory, an intelligent force designed it that way, and sort of guided it along. Once again, not God, but an intelligent force.

Wrong yet again. Most ID'ers do believe it's God. They simply don't say that much when trying to discredit evolution using ID. If you want to ignore ID completely in this debate I'm more than happy to ignore them too but at least get what they say correct in the first place.

According to Dwain L. Ford, in his section in the book "In Six Days", "Evidence for intelligent design is widespread in nature. For example:
A)  The motorized rotating flagellum of some bacteria.
B)  Blood clotting and its control.
C)  The high degree of organization within a typical cell.
D)  Cell division and its control.
E)  The system for protein synthesis.
F)  The human eye.
G)  The respiratory chain based in the highly organized mitochondria.
H)  The biosynthetic pathway in which acetyl CoA is the key compound."

All of these can be refuted but seeing as how you're saying that ID is rubbish I'm not going to waste my time refuting stuff which you appear to think is bollocks anyway.

Though my personal beliefs say that Evolutionism is not true, everyone is entitled to their opinion. They do have some facts, though they may be flawed in some form. They have fossils but the dating is flawed. Either way you have to decide for yourself, weather you will believe in Creationism or Evolutionism. As I said at the beginning, you can’t totally prove or disprove either side; so, it comes down to if you believe in God or chance.

As I stated would be the case your conclusions are formed on very big misconceptions of what evolution actually is. You're entitled to your opinion but if you have formed that opinion on bad data then it is worthless.

[FireCrack]

Creationists believe that at a time when man and animals were many in number God caused the Noachian Flood, also called The Great Flood, to happen. Sonder says, "Perhaps the Flood had been caused by a sudden shift of the Earth’s axis that had spewed up massive amounts of underground water. First, smaller animals had been swept away, and they had settled into the mud according to their specific gravity, or, roughly, their weight. Fish had died and floated to the water’s surface. Larger animals and humans ran to hilltops and mountain tops to escape the flood, but finally it reached them. They drowned and where covered with sediment in the years that followed. In other words, the fossils in the strata were not the remains of organisms that lived at different times. All had perished together in the Great Flood." 6 (Ben Sonder)

Foolish, that doesnt even attempt to accounr for different groupings of fossils being in different places, if that were true they would all be mish-mash about.

This explains how fossils got to be at different levels of the earth’s crust. The flood, which mass moved a massive amount of dirt, to account for the many layers of crust over the fossils, is why many species are extinct today. This is not the cause of natural selection, or because they were a weak species or died off due to catastrophes; but if God created the world only a few thousand years ago, the fossils could not possibly be millions of years old.

You are not even talking about the absolute ages of the fossils, how can you make a conclusion on it?

INTELLIGENT DESIGN.
A faction called Intelligent Design, opposes evolution and denies Christianity at the same time. This group, which emerged in recent years, believes that there is no God or creator. They believe also that, the universe did not happen by chance, and evolution did not happen by natural selection (chance).  They believe, that the complexity of a living being, of all the cells, and the path in which evolution took, did not happen by chance. In theory, an intelligent force designed it that way, and sort of guided it along. Once again, not God, but an intelligent force. Some claim this is ‘creation science’ in disguise, and that it’s just another attempt to discredit evolution and be pro-creationist. According to Dwain L. Ford, in his section in the book "In Six Days", "Evidence for intelligent design is widespread in nature. For example:
A)  The motorized rotating flagellum of some bacteria.
B)  Blood clotting and its control.
C)  The high degree of organization within a typical cell.
D)  Cell division and its control.
E)  The system for protein synthesis.
F)  The human eye.
G)  The respiratory chain based in the highly organized mitochondria.
H)  The biosynthetic pathway in which acetyl CoA is the key compound." 7 (John F. Ashton)

These are just a strewn together list of facts that you are posturing as evidence for ID. These dont show any evidence for ID in any way, in fact, most of them support evolution.

[Shade]

That post is so loaded with errors regarding evolution that it took me three tries to actually get through it. Anyway, lets start at the beginning shall we? I'll leave picking the creationist arguments apart to someone else, and just focus on the factual errors regarding evolution. Well ok, I might make a few exceptions.

Evolutionists believe that there was nothing in space. All matter and energy, over the millions of years eventually built up at an immense temperature and density, and in a big bang, exploded creating an anomaly. That release of energy and matter created the universe or, the elements or cells that created the universe or the matter thereof. Life emerged from non-living material and means.

The point being? This has nothing to do with the theory of evolution. The big bang theory is about how the early universe was created, and may or may not be right. There are several alternative theories about. Earth, the Sun and the other planets however did not spontaneously create itself out of pure energy, they formed from the slow consolitation of matter into larger and larger clumps. There is little disagreement over this, as it's a process continually happening throughout the galaxy and is readily observable with powerful telescopes. But regardless of, wrong theory.

Oh, and incidentally, the fact that such formation of far away stars is observable in telescopes, combined with the known and proven speed of light, completely invalidates any young earth (well, young universe, but since the 'world' goes beyond just earth it applies) arguments that might rear their heads later. It is simple: We know stuff existed millions of years ago. We can, quite literally, see it right before our eyes. So no 'nothing existed prior to 10.000 BC', please. I know noone has claimed that yet, but consider that a preemptive strike I guess. Actually wait a sec...

Creationists generally believe that man has been on this earth approximately 6,000 years since creation.

Guess you did claim it. That would be the exception I mentioned I guess, just couldn't let that one stand.

Evolutionists believe that when the big bang occurred it also created ameba’s, which over millions of years mutated into living animals. Those animal species eventually faced catastrophes and intolerable climate changes, which led to mass extermination and few survivors. Those survivors either adapted and lived, or became immune to the event and they developed slightly changed characteristics. Those characteristic traits were passed down, to their descendants, which were immune from birth to the event that killed a lot of the pervious species.

Err, no. Just no. Big bang and evolution are two entirely seperate theories. They have nothing to do with each other, at all. Evolution doesn't come in until we already have a fully formed planet with at least some life on it. As far as the theory of evolution cares, god could have taken care of all the initial world-building and life-seeding.

Evolutionists believe that by natural selection and mutation, over millions of years, man evolved from apes and apes from previous species. There was no special plan or design, just survial of the fittest. They believe also that the path of evolution of species is all by chance, that there is no guiding force. That the big bang and the creation of life from non-living material was chance and luck, same as the evolution of all species was.

Just how many times, on this thread alone, has it been pointed out that evolution is not considered random, not chance? Life itself, perhaps, but evolution has nothing to do with the origin of life itself. And again, you just had to throw the big bang in there didn't you? Please, just get that one out of your head, seems just one theory is enough of a problem to cope with, no reason to go to war with several.

All this just goes to show that you do, indeed, not understand the theory of evolution.

[Edit] Bleh, I type too slow Oh well....

[StratComm]

You asked was the water compressed...  No crap it was compressed...  The waterabove the earth was lingering in the atmosphere...  Its totally possible because all the ceans and rivers and wells were full for Adam and Eve to drink out of...  It was rain just like todays rain, except larger amounts had come down..

On a similar point, notice how the lifespan of everyone before the flood is significantly higher than the lifespans of those after the flood. This was not "just rain, but in larger amounts" that fell during this flood; it apparently was enough to cause factors that would have resulted in a shortage of human lifespan in the Middle East (skin cancer resulting from increased sun exposure, par exampla).

That's circular logic.  There's no evidence outside of the bible that the human lifespan was ever longer than it is today (in fact, most actual historical records and, farther back, archeological records indicate that the human lifespan was much shorter) and so that Biblical reference cannot be used to justify another biblical reference.

Now, on to Charismatic's essay.  This is going to get ugly fast.

I do not have time to reply to what has been said, ATM. Im buzy tonight. All i have time for is this.

Here, ladies and gentlemen, is the much awaited report of mine:

EVOLUTION
Many people today want to know how the world and everything began. None of us today was there when it happened so we rely on beliefs and science to tell us how the world began. Both sides (Creationists and Evolutionists) cannot be completely proven or disproven, so in that light, I will discuss the main points of controversy of both sides and explain both points of view in hopes to give you a better understanding of each side.

In short, Evolution is the belief that all living beings originated from earlier species over millions o