[Kosh]

http://science.slashdot.org/science/06/11/04/1753211.shtml

[Unknown Target]

@ world.

[Dark Hunter]

They want nuclear tech, and I want a computer that never breaks...

We don't always get what we want...

[Rictor]

Of course they do. It's a dangerous neighborhood. Pakistan has nukes, Israel has nukes, the US has nuclear ships in the region and Iran may get nukes in the future.

See the thing that's overlooked in the US's "us vs them" worlview is that the Arabs and the Persians are not at all friendly. Saudi Arabia and Egypt are battling Iran for influence in the region, not only Arabs vs Persians but Sunni vs Shia. And the Iranians in turn have good reason to be worried, given that the Arab world has no love for the nation of Shia heretics and it's growing power.

The real danger in this is not that the Saudi or Turkish or Iranian government would launch a nuclear attack, but that the government of a nuclear-armed nation could collapse and the resulting free-for-all would see the nuclear storage depots raided by ter'rist and various thugs. That's the danger with Pakistan, and since that the Saudi and Egyptian governments aren't exactly bastions of stability there is a real reason to worry.

[Taristin]

See the thing that's overlooked in the US's "us vs them" worlview is that the Arabs and the Persians are not at all friendly.

Well, see, most Americans don't even know that Persians aren't Arab. Nor are they truly aware of two sects of Islam in the region...

[an0n]

The real danger in this is not that the Saudi or Turkish or Iranian government would launch a nuclear attack, but that the government of a nuclear-armed nation could collapse and the resulting free-for-all would see the nuclear storage depots raided by ter'rist and various thugs. That's the danger with Pakistan, and since that the Saudi and Egyptian governments aren't exactly bastions of stability there is a real reason to worry.

Which is just horse-****. Look at the fall of the USSR....

[Janos]

Which is just horse-****. Look at the fall of the USSR....

Apples and oranges. USSR or client states did not succumb to violent revolution, the change was peaceful and well-arranged. Revolutions are completely different.

[an0n]

No they're not.

The people with control of the weapons seize them as soon as everyone starts turning on the government, then use them to build their own little quasi-criminal, pseudo-legitimate revolutionary group and start selling off all the big **** to the various Mafias to buy small arms with which to supply their troops in order to maintain control over the general population.

[achtung]

No they're not.

The people with control of the weapons seize them as soon as everyone starts turning on the government, then use them to build their own little quasi-criminal, pseudo-legitimate revolutionary group and start selling off all the big **** to the various Mafias to buy small arms with which to supply their troops in order to maintain control over the general population.

Which results in the wrong people having the nuclear arms.

[Janos]

No they're not.

The people with control of the weapons seize them as soon as everyone starts turning on the government, then use them to build their own little quasi-criminal, pseudo-legitimate revolutionary group and start selling off all the big **** to the various Mafias to buy small arms with which to supply their troops in order to maintain control over the general population.

Still, how is a peaceful change of regime similar to revolution?

[Rictor]

The people with control of the weapons seize them as soon as everyone starts turning on the government, then use them to build their own little quasi-criminal, pseudo-legitimate revolutionary group and start selling off all the big **** to the various Mafias to buy small arms with which to supply their troops in order to maintain control over the general population.

So what you're saying is that it goes:
Nuclear storage > connected officials > mafia > crazy assholes
and not
Nuclear storage > crazy assholes
I'm so relieved.

Why do you think the US is playing all nice with Musharraf, given his somewhat ambigous stance on the Taliban and other Islamist groups within Pakistan? Because they know that whoever replaces him would probably be far less secular and pro-Western and more hardline religious-nationalist. Same thing with Syria and Egypt.

By the way Janos, I would hardly call the transition from the USSR to post-communist Russia a peaceful one. Ignoring for a second the dozen or so little wars that sprang up in the outlying territories (Abkhazia, Ossetia, Karabakh, Chechnya), tanks firing on your house of parliament while the military supresses mass protests ain't exactly a the picture of peace and order.

[Janos]

By the way Janos, I would hardly call the transition from the USSR to post-communist Russia a peaceful one. Ignoring for a second the dozen or so little wars that sprang up in the outlying territories (Abkhazia, Ossetia, Karabakh, Chechnya), tanks firing on your house of parliament while the military supresses mass protests ain't exactly a the picture of peace and order.

Relatively speaking it was propably the least bloody and violent "big" regime changes in 20th century. Your examples have less to do with collapse of SU and more to do with Russia trying to retain their unity and area. Soviet regime change was not a hard revolution with people generally shooting a lot of bullets at each other with different toys and two sides doing zany stuff. The unstability resulted after the regime change but not directly because said change was somehow inherently violent or unstable. If you catch me.

[NGTM-1R]

Well, see, most Americans don't even know that Persians aren't Arab. Nor are they truly aware of two sects of Islam in the region...

They've been hearing about Sunni and Shi'a for years now, so I kinda doubt that.

[Mefustae]

Well, see, most Americans don't even know that Persians aren't Arab. Nor are they truly aware of two sects of Islam in the region...

They've been hearing about Sunni and Shi'a for years now, so I kinda doubt that.

And you think the average Joe-twelvepack honestly cares?

[NGTM-1R]

If he actually bothers to read the paper or watch the evening news, then it's not a matter of caring. You don't have much of a choice about knowing something when you're told it repeatedly for years.

[Taristin]

If he actually bothers to read the paper or watch the evening news, then it's not a matter of caring. You don't have much of a choice about knowing something when you're told it repeatedly for years.

Just because they've been hearing terms thrown about doesnt mean they know what they mean.

EDIT: Oh my. 13,666 posts...

[Rictor]

Raa? Is that you?

[Taristin]

Erm, yes. But there goes my apocalyptic post count

[vyper]

Stop ****ing changing names boy. You're all like "I'm a GTVI Agent, ooh look now I'm an Egyptian God... hey now I'm just something else!" and we're like "Duuuuude!".

Yes...

[Taristin]

Hey! I didnt request this one (though I do appreciate it!) so dont blame me!