Author Topic: Booyah  (Read 20652 times)

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgSI37_8wRw

Emphasis at 2:10.

 Romans 12:17-21 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. On the contrary:
   "If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
      if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
   In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."  Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.


That's all I gotta say.  For now.
Could we with ink the ocean fill, and were the skies of parchment made
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Offline brandx0

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We're lucky we have at least a semi-functioning justice system.  If not for that the religious right might jump out there and just say "Forgive everyone" based on passages like that, and there wouldn't be any punishment for crimes at all.

I'm sorry, but if someone killed my kid, I'd make them suffer a horrible death, and then go to jail for the rest of my life gladly knowing that he got what he deserved.
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Offline Mefustae

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I'm sorry, but if someone killed my kid, I'd make them suffer a horrible death, and then go to jail for the rest of my life gladly knowing that he got what he deserved.
And the rest of us would be content knowing that you got exactly what you deserved, too. Of course, you're handing the person who killed your child another victory; ruining two lives for the price of one. Nice one. And torture, eh? You might even get the death penalty for that. Congratulations, you're now officially worse than the original killer.

Honestly, someone who calls for further bloodshed is no better than the killer himself. Haven't we evolved to the point where we can walk away and deal with our pain ourselves without having to inflict it on others?

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Brand: Religious right-wingers usually have the most vindictive of people in charge of the whole group, without trying to generalize but that's just how it is. They certainly seem to be willing to judge people for doing a great many things. Except where they are given authority from above to break the laws, that's all right by them 'cause then the law is wrong.

Considering that forgiveness seemed to be about the only thing that got any kind of reaction out of the guy on the video, I can kinda understand what Saul of Tarsus (and note that I make a distinction between what authors of a book write and what is the suppsoed God's will and word) says about burning coal... And that quote doesn't mean that you should turn the other cheek (oh wait, that's elsewhere on the same book) have an eye for eye (oh wait that was on the older edition) ignore the criminal actions and leave them without any consequences of their actions, it just says you should forgive them for they do not know what they are doing (oh wait, that was elsewhere again).

Whether you are capable or willing to forgive doesn't really matter much for the criminals, but it might make a difference to you. I don't know if I would be able to forgive someone for takign away from me something as precious as a family member, but then again I don't really see much sense in harbouring anger and/or desire for revenge against the perpetrator. I hope I'll never need to find out.

Also, engaging in acts of vigilantism to exact revenge upon a supposed killer of someone close to you is a good way to ruin your own life in addition to the victim(s) of the killer. The emotional basis for revenge is easily understandable but logically easy to dismantle and show as what it most often is - misguided protective instinct (the need to do the right thing "for the victims"), and secondarily . Instinct to protect one's offspring and companion in life in addition to pretecting oneself runs deep in most beings, and failing in that self-imposed task makes people angry and frustrated, and it would feel that destroying the source of it all would take the pain away, but usually it doesn't, since the damage is done, the victim(s) won't come back - or in fact, gain anything from your act of violence - and after the killer is dead, what's left for you? Becoming roommates with a big guy called Bubba?

Think about it this way - if you were killed or murdered (which are not quite the same thing), would you want your parent to kill the one responsible (I'm assuming here that they would even get the right person, which isn't even certain) and end up in jail for the rest of their life?

I certainly wouldn't want that.

Sure, I would want that no one else would need to suffer the same end, but it should be done in a way that doesn't require my family members to sacrifice their own lives on the altar of revenge. Justice system imposed detainment for life would be quite sufficient. Death penalty in general I see as unnecessary relief for criminals - if you think about it, everyone dies at some point anyway, so what's the hurry? It just lets them get away from that big guy called Bubba, and other pleasantries of penintentiary facilities. In the end, regardless of what comes after it, everyone gets the same end anyway.

Incidentally, the same guy that G0atmaster quoted also claims God to have claimed that he'll exact vengeance as he sees fit (some consider this as God claiming exclusive right to vengeance), so I guess there goes the loving God image campaign crashing down again... :nervous: :rolleyes:
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 06:15:33 am by Herra Tohtori »
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 
Honestly, someone who calls for further bloodshed is no better than the killer himself. Haven't we evolved to the point where we can walk away and deal with our pain ourselves without having to inflict it on others?

No, we haven't.

 

Offline TrashMan

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Considering that forgiveness seemed to be about the only thing that got any kind of reaction out of the guy on the video, I can kinda understand what Saul of Tarsus (and note that I make a distinction between what authors of a book write and what is the suppsoed God's will and word) says about burning coal... And that quote doesn't mean that you should turn the other cheek (oh wait, that's elsewhere on the same book) have an eye for eye (oh wait that was on the older edition) ignore the criminal actions and leave them without any consequences of their actions, it just says you should forgive them for they do not know what they are doing (oh wait, that was elsewhere again).

Was this redicule of the Bible really necessary Herra? :wtf:

How about you cram own on your own hate a bit, eh? Hypocrite.
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Was this redicule of the Bible really necessary Herra? :wtf:

How about you cram own on your own hate a bit, eh? Hypocrite.



Meh.

Hate? Ridicule to the self-contradictions inherent in the Bible, yes, but hardly hate.

Necessary, maybe not for this particular topic. But as far as quotes go, I see the Bible as a good source to support most points of view and opinions, you just need to find the right part depending on your agenda.

Hypocrisy? Regarding what exactly?

Also, I find it interesting that you seem to understand what I wrote as ridicule of the Bible, yet everything I did was quote some most known phrases from Bible*. Does this mean the Bible is ridiculous? No. It means it is ridiculous when it is regarded as the Truth, Authority and Holy Book never wrong. When it's considered as interpretation of history mixed with myths, legends and tales from various cultures, it's actually a pretty interesting book (at least partially), self-contradictions included, but not moreso than Kalevala, Gilgamesh or other epics of olden times. The fact that the New Testimony is basically what Confucius and Siddhartha Gautama taught regarding how to deal with other people in life doesn't demean it. But that is getting beside the point of conversation, which was actually pretty interesting. Do you want to participate or accuse me of other heinous crimes?

If it angers you that your religion's sacred texts are self-contradictory, accusing someone who points it out seems to me like deceiving yourself. Accusing me of bringing up the inconsistencies does not make them go away.

*And please don't bring out the out of context argument, most of what I quoted was pretty much self-explanatory and has the same meaning as in the original context.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 04:02:38 pm by Herra Tohtori »
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Offline karajorma

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Considering that forgiveness seemed to be about the only thing that got any kind of reaction out of the guy on the video, I can kinda understand what Saul of Tarsus (and note that I make a distinction between what authors of a book write and what is the suppsoed God's will and word) says about burning coal.

Problem is that it only works because it was unexpected. If we lived in a world where everyone forgave killers the guy would have broken down at someone who hated him ("What does he mean he hates me? What did I do to him apart from murder his daughter? Everyone else forgave me!")

That said, that world does sound like a better one in some ways. :D
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Offline TrashMan

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*And please don't bring out the out of context argument, most of what I quoted was pretty much self-explanatory and has the same meaning as in the original context.

Is it? Does it?

I myself don't put much faith in the Old Testament, given it's age and the way it came into being (verbal re-telling for generations), but still - there's not not much contradictory in there if one cares to look at the bigger picture and knows what and where to look.

Anyway, this isn't really the topic of this thread, I was just telling you to keep unapropriate and unnecessary comment where they belong - inside.
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Anyway, this isn't really the topic of this thread, I was just telling you to keep unapropriate and unnecessary comment where they belong - inside.


I agree that this thread needs no further de-railment. However I don't know if you're quite the right person to tell others to keep inappropriate [matter of opinion] and unnecessary [mostly the definition of GenDisc Internet forums anyway so that's kinda oxymoronic argument anyway] to themselves; you could have just ignored my comment or reported it to moderator if you really felt it inappropriate.  :p

Karajorma: Unexpected it most likely was, and it surely played a role on shocking the convict, but I suppose we will never find out if your hypothesis would work regarding a world where forgiveness was the norm...  :nervous:
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 07:52:50 am by Herra Tohtori »
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Offline karajorma

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Karajorma: Unexpected it most likely was, and it surely played a role on shocking the convict, but I suppose we will never find out if your hypothesis would work regarding a world where forgiveness was the norm...  :nervous:

Doesn't have to be a whole world. I could create a suitable test with 500 babies and a desert island. :p
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Offline achtung

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Killing with kindness frequently works; that stands true whether you follow the Christian belief system or not.
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Quote
Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.

IF IT IS POSSIBLE, therefore if we have a fight with our neighbor, we should talk it over and end the conflict, but if there is a murderer walking around, making it a bit less possible to solve the problem quick and painless...

from Genesis:

Cain kills his brother, Abel...
Quote
And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

We can feel free to use even the death penalty.

The Bible is a pretty long book, describes very many situations, and quoting things without describing the whole situation, makes it look like one fragment states the opposite of another. Also many things there can be understood in multiple ways, so either give a good description of the quote, or let's just not use fragments of the Bible.
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Offline neo_hermes

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STOP QUOTING THE BIBLE! FFS!
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Offline achtung

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I'm starting to believe some of the "strong" Christians and Atheists here are trolls.  Trolls trolling trolls, y'know?
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Offline Mars

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If someone killed my kid, yes I'd want him dead, but I'd want to be sure it was the right person, and I'd want everyone to know that it was.

 

Offline TrashMan

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I agree that this thread needs no further de-railment. However I don't know if you're quite the right person to tell others to keep inappropriate [matter of opinion] and unnecessary [mostly the definition of GenDisc Internet forums anyway so that's kinda oxymoronic argument anyway] to themselves; you could have just ignored my comment or reported it to moderator if you really felt it inappropriate.  :p

True to a extent but I also don't have a habbit at deliberately making fun of things other people hold sacred...especially not in their presence.
Since you know there are religious folk on these forums too (a minority, but there still are) that will read that, just be a bit more careful what you write.
Not that I find what you wrote that offensive at all, but I know people who would, and I can see why. Then again, I may just have put my foot in my own mouth, since some people are ALWAYS bound to be offended about something.  :lol:

No matter, let's continue...


Quote
Karajorma: Unexpected it most likely was, and it surely played a role on shocking the convict, but I suppose we will never find out if your hypothesis would work regarding a world where forgiveness was the norm...  :nervous:

Who knows.. Human psychology is a vast ocean that we know next to nothing about.
Just how crazy was that guy? Does his mind even work "normally" (whatever normal today may be)?

As for could I forgive a guy like that? I dunno.. I like to believe I could.
I was in position where a known criminal threatened to kill my sister. Adrenaling pumping, the anger, the fear...if he truly did that I don't know how much time I would need to "cool down" and talk some sense into myself. But I'm pretty sure if someone would to kill a member of my family and I was right there at the time - I'd kill him.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 04:31:58 pm by TrashMan »
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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I'm starting to believe some of the "strong" Christians and Atheists here are trolls.  Trolls trolling trolls, y'know?

Since most of this thread seems to already be metaconversation anyway, here goes nothing. (splitting the thread could possibly be considered seeing where this seems to be going...)


I never attempted to troll anyone. More than anything it was an attempt to lighten the topic a bit, hence the invoking of Not So Srs Cat. None of what I said felt overly provocative or aggressive against christians to me in any way; if TrashMan felt that my quoting of the Bible was an attempt to ridicule it, I could just bring up another famous passage, "Thou sayeth it." If I were to really troll with Bible, I would take something like Deuteronomy 20:10-19 or Numbers 31:17-18, or some others, equally disturbing passages about God's will concerning other peoples. If someone is trolled by me placing two incredibly contradictory passages ("turn another cheek" and "eye for an eye") on my post, I don't know who or what can be blamed other than "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" -phenomenon.

Quote from: TrashMan
I myself don't put much faith in the Old Testament, given it's age and the way it came into being (verbal re-telling for generations), but still - there's not not much contradictory in there if one cares to look at the bigger picture and knows what and where to look.

Also, I would point out that if you don't believe in the Old Testimony you obviously aren't a True Christian, because Jeshua of Nasaret (and Saul of Tarsus for that matter) says the Old Testimony is word of God, so logically if you believe Old Testimony to be true word of God, so should you believe about the Old Testimony. So to me it appears that the only way not to see the self-contradictory nature of Bible would be to know what not to look at, and concentrate on a "bigger picture" which is what you selectively want it to be. Which to me is actually a lot smarter way to interpret the Bible than literary assumption of all of it being equally true words from same source, but it brings your claimed view of the world into an interesting light nevertheless.

Even so it wouldn't really be trolling, it would be a logical argument about the matter, but if you do not put much faith in Old Testimony, good for you. The New Testimony does hold alot more human ideas and it's basic message is a good one, and that part of the book isn't demeaned by the fact that ignoring the spiritual part it's basically the same message that Confucius and other great philosophers before Jesus had to give to people, and following that tenet should not be a matter of faith but logical thought.

Quote from: Confucius
What one does not wish for oneself, one ought not to do to anyone else; what one recognises as desirable for oneself, one ought to be willing to grant to others.
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