[Skullar]

Hello there folks. Recently there has been an issue with SCP team. I don't know anything about it except what IP-Andrews stated here, but I think I can pretty well understand both sides.

The SCP team is constantly improving the builds. They are removing bugs, adding new features, provide more possibilities and make fs2 more stable. ( I LOVE what they are doing !!! I complained about a few things in the last years and they took care of everything )
OF COURSE they don't want their efforts and THEIR hard work to be in vain. You spent months to make a feature running, and then comes a mod team that claims they don't want to do anything to incorporate it into their mod.

Of course this is frustrating. Why writing the code for glow and shinemaps if no one has the patience to make glow and shinemaps for his mod ? Why add new SEXPS to fred if no one touches up his campaigns with them ?
I understand they want everyone to use what they are doing. Fair enough.

On the other side we have TBP final and IPANDREWS extremely reasonable approach on things. Even against my objection in the past
Take something into consideration :

TBP is final, which means there is a full and complete TC offering 120+ vessels. And one reason TBP is one of the few mods and TC who actually HAVE a full and complete release is DISCIPLINE.

The discipline to say : "Let's aim for something well defined"

The first release was our famous Earth-Minbari War Demo. It was something that was purposefully aimed at. We packed together the ships, the sound effects , the interface art , made 5 missions and voila..... we had something to play with.
We resisted the urge to improve one vessel for the 346th time ( while others were not even started ) and managed to release, and that was a wonderful thing.

So many projects around, and unlike TBP they all suffer from undisciplined ambition. The few vessels done are never detailed enough ( while the other 90 % not even have a raw mesh ), no mission ever has enough features ( waiting for even newer and cooler SEXPs while 95 % of the intended campaign missions have not even been started in FRED )
There are never enough cool ideas what could be done ( and none is ever realized, coz there could be an even cooler idea tomorrow..... )

Just look around.

FATE OF THE GALAXY.
Even more detailed Star-Destroyer, 10 more Polygons on TIE interceptor, even ships I have never heard of ( whatever-wings ).
Tons of stuff in the making, and therefore nothing ever nearing completion. NEVER. Just like everything else, progress is unplanned and chaotic as cancer. ( sorry, at least I have the impression )
Although I would highly anticipate one, I doubt they will ever release. I think they will get lost in the endless plains of undisciplined ambition and loose themselves in various details like even more polygons here and yet another vessel there, until the team breaks up like so many and the project is deserted. Starved to death.
They asked what we expect from the project. Well. X-wing, y-wing, one or two TIEs, a corvette, a transport, perhaps a star destroyer or a calamari. That would be enough for me to make a campaign already. But I think that is to reasonable to be attractive.

Same goes for similar projects, like apocalypse. Too few people with too high goals.

The Babylon Project is successful. We HAVE a release and we are proud of it. Because we know that dreaming of what WOULD be cool distracts you from knowing what CAN be done in reasonable time.

IPAndrews objected to a number of things in the past, for example to the infamous HIGH POLY update. Of course a high poly update would have been cool ! But let's be honest : It would have never developed the way we dreamed of ! New models wouldn't have been 100% compatibel to old ones. Entire campaigns would have become obsolete. The original fredders long gone, no one would have volunteered to update a foreign campaign ( Everyone has own stuff in the making ). Also, the interest in DOING campaigns at all would have severely decreased. ( What ? It could be made obsolete with the next build ? Then I wait for the next build ! There will always be a next build ? Too bad, I had such a wonderful idea, but I don't want to fred for NOTHING.... )
And even without compatibility issues..... The new MIDWINTER looks superb ! But wait.... somehow the game looks crappy. The old OMEGA class now looks so silly by comparison ! This can't stay like that ! We have to redo the Omega class ! And the .... class ! And the ..... ! **** repeat 110 times **** And the XYZ !!! But I think we will be through with this ambitious apdate in 2018 !

You got the point. I think we owe VERY MUCH to IPAndrews ( and his precursors ) for maintaining discipline. Otherwise we would still be adding 3 more polygons to the NIAL fighter. And all the people who helped to get all the 120 vessels done would have never showed up, coz they would have never had anything to play and to inspire them.

-------

EACW and ITNOTE

ITNOTE was this little 3 mission campaign I did as a SEXP test for EACW. The combat trials are nicely set up , and the cutscenes use the new SEXPs. I did far cooler CUTSCENES with EACW no one has seen yet, but I am on it.

Like ITNOTE, EACW will make use of a current 3.6.10 build. So, in a way.... TBP is definitely making use of SCPs beautyful new builds. The wonderful thing is : TBP looks better and better along with SCP. Why do we have to touch the TBP 3.4 stuff ? Unnecessary.
TBP DOES develop : Campaigns and missions are in the making, so I don't see ANYONES stuff being not used.

With EACW under development ( courtesy the guys from SCP , I love you ) I still look into a golden future, and there is much fun in store for all of us.

Well, If we can find more voiceactors with DISCIPLINE....

Greetings
Skullar

[Flipside]

I think attacking other campaigns is completely uncalled for simply for your own personal perspective on them.

This was not about the quality of the Mods, it was about the compatibility of mods and tables, which were causing problems with debugging the source code when errors were appearing.

And, quite frankly, having IPAndrews appear on here, attacking the entire team simply for 'daring' to ask that some of the problems with models be fixed was also completely out of order.

Nobody denies that amount of effort you people have made on TBP, now please give other teams the same level of credit.

Regardless of what people may think, the requests from the Team were to improve the experience for your own players and to increase the stability of the game for them.

[Skullar]

Hello there.

Actually I don't know what IP did, and I don't want to attack anyone, especially not the other project teams. They are working on stuff I am anxious to play !


I just had the impression that recent disagreements could have to do with this problem of "undisciplined ambition" ( or call it the DUKE NUKEM FOREVER problem, it happened to them too ) , and I just wanted to state it here as a reminder for all us of including me. I think I am with TBP since 2002, and I have seen numerous times that unplanned progress unfortunately frustrates more than it does good. TBP had its desertions as well The best times we from TBP had were always the times we were aiming for something specific in the not-so distant future.

Besides... what problem is there you mentioned ? Compatibility with debugging sourcecode ?

[IPAndrews]

And, quite frankly, having IPAndrews appear on here, attacking the entire team simply for 'daring' to ask that some of the problems with models be fixed was also completely out of order.

I attacked your team in the private forum  for your behaviour as discussed in this thread. I did not attack your team "here" in the public forum. I simply informed everyone what happened in the private forum and what they can expect from your team. If that casts your team in a bad light that's your team's fault not mine.

[Flipside]

That thread is in a Public Forum, the Freespace Source Code Project Forum, not the private one, and I consider that post an attack on the team for asking for models to be corrected.

It doesn't cast any project I'm involved with in a bad light, but that doesn't mean I cannot defend other people's projects.

They were the ones willing to keep the problems a private issue, you chose to make them public, and even to include a sarcastic comment in your signature.

Oh, and as for 'That's your teams fault, not mine', no, it is not anyone's 'fault' other than the person throwing generalisations around, just because someone says so doesn't make it fact.

[Shade]

I attacked your team in the private forum  for your behaviour as discussed in this thread. I did not attack your team "here" in the public forum. I simply informed everyone what happened in the private forum and what they can expect from your team. If that casts your team in a bad light that's your team's fault not mine.

How much of the team, exactly, was involved in that private forum discussion? A fair number I assume, given that you're so consistently blaming all of us? And if not, then please make sure you direct your anger a bit better, because frankly I'm getting tired of being blamed for something that happened in a forum I can't even access. Especially when the team you're so happy about blaming hasn't actually made any decisions at all on the matter in question.

[IPAndrews]

Perhaps you should all read again my post in the public forum where I clearly state "I'm not up for debating whether their behaviour is justified, or not. I'm simply informing you all that these are the rules of the game and now you all know.". I fail to see how I can be accused of attacking anyone in the public forum after such a clear statement.

The private forum is a different matter, there was a small invasion by a significant number of your team members launching personal attacks against myself and my fellow team members. In doing so they were acting on behalf of your team. If you want details, ask them. If you have a problem with it, ask them. The internal workings of your team aren't my concern.

[Flipside]

As I said before, I consider what you said to be an attack, you started claiming that the SCP Team would expect continual and unending updates, I'm not certain of what happened in your internal forum, and, quite frankly, I don't care, the internal workings of your team aren't my concern, however, the crux of the matter is there were models and table entries that required correcting, if you had a problem with the way it was approached, there is a specific forum for project heads, there is also PM, but coming on here and accusing the entire team of, to quote your signature 'thinking they own your mod' is totally out of order.

[karajorma]

Bear in mind that the issue that started all this is the fact that if there are bugs in TBP it's the SCP who get blamed and told to fix it. So it's nothing to do with the SCP thinking they own TBP and everything to do with the SCP taking the blame for things that may be TBP's fault.

[chief1983]

Nevermind the fact that the public forum post was grossly inaccurate, and yet purports to be just 'the rules of the game'.

Shade, I think IPA attacks the team as a whole because most of his dealings have been with more prominent and veteran member(s) of the team.  We're just getting caught in the sh*tstorm crossfire.

[DaBrain]

@Skullar

We're all proud of TBP, but that's not the point.

TBP bugs are beeing reported on Mantis. Due to the mass of error messages in TBP, it's hard to find code bugs. And it's often not hard to tell if the bug is a content problem, or a bug in the code.

And who takes are of the content problems? They could stay in Mantis forever.


The discipline of the TBP team is admirable and I'm certainly not talking about myself here, but to be really "final" the issues have to be fixed, otherwise how the "bugs" in Mantis should be dealt with, except for dropping TBP out of Mantis. And that is almost like dropping the support for TBP completely.

The SCP team never asked TBP to add new content, or use new features.

[Goober5000]

I don't know anything about it except what IP-Andrews stated here, but I think I can pretty well understand both sides.

Umm... and how do you arrive at this bizarre invocation of logic?  If you only know IPAndrews's side, then how can you understand both sides?

We are by no means demanding that mods make use of all the SCP's advanced features.  Far from it -- in fact, I have repeatedly stated my personal opinion that unnecessary enhancement (redoing effects and HTL'ing models for the umpteenth time) can be harmful to a mod.  Just look at how long BWO has been in development, and how many times they've revamped their assets.

The only thing we want TBP to do is to fix their bugs.  There are numerous bugs in the so-called final release, some of them severe enough to crash the game.  (Or has nobody tried using the VE Dreadnought?)  Other bugs, while not causing crashes, cause incorrect behavior -- for example, TBP contains an ai_profiles.tbl that is set as a lesser priority than the FS2 RETAIL AI settings, meaning that the TBP AI settings are not actually used.

All we want is for TBP to fix their bugs.  This is an essential part of any mod, and is required by the very discipline you advocate, Skullar.  Wing Commander Saga, Inferno, and BWO have all worked hard in cooperation with SCP members to remove the bugs in their mod.  TBP has not.

Now, I apologize for being overbearing about this subject in the past, but I figured "if the carrot doesn't work, use the stick".  My initial "carrot" overtures to TBP met with much more resistance than I was expecting, or thought was reasonable, so I made some "stick" overtures.  Obviously that was ineffective, and probably caused IPAndrews to prefer his own interpretations rather than what the SCP team said.  So now we're taking the opposite approach.  We (not me, but many members of the SCP team and even some non-SCP members) are creating a TBP patch that will fix all of the mod errors in TBP.  We will provide this patch to the TBP team as a gesture of goodwill.

However, it's important to understand that working around TBP bugs is tiring, and in fact actively discourages SCP coders from handling TBP requests or bug reports.  Every single time we debug TBP, we must click through nearly 100 warnings and errors.  If the TBP team wants to use the SCP features, then they need to play by the rules of those features.  If they insist on providing buggy models and tables, why should they deserve special treatment?

That's why we have been discussing dropping support.  (And please note, we have not actually made an official decision on that yet.)

[IPAndrews]

Shade, I think IPA attacks the team as a whole because most of his dealings have been with more prominent and veteran member(s) of the team.  We're just getting caught in the sh*tstorm crossfire.

You may find this hard to believe but I actually sympathise with your position and that of Shade.

but to be really "final" the issues have to be fixed,

No the issues do not "have to be fixed". Once again, the SCP team does not run TBP. Nobody does. The mod is dead and it remains FINAL. The SCP team's demands will continue to be ignored.

Let's not restart the debate for and against either. The specifics relating to TBP were discussed to death in the internal forum. Let's not rehash the same debate here again for it to descend into personal insults like the internal one.

[IPAndrews]

The only thing we want TBP to do is to fix their bugs.  There are numerous bugs in the so-called final release,

The "so-called" final release is the FINAL release. End of story.

[The E]

 

As one of the many people who enjoy TBP, i find this appalling. There are known issues with this mod, and the people producing it are REFUSING TO FIX THEM???
That is the impression i'm getting, anyway. "Final", to me, means bug-free; TBP seems to be "feature complete", but FAR from final. Now that nothing new is being added, it should be easier to concentrate on refining the stuff that is in there....

[Flipside]

Well, as Goober stated, there are a group of fans working to fix those problems now, hopefully that will resolve some of the issues at least so that people can enjoy TBP without worrying about instability so much.

[IPAndrews]

the people producing it are REFUSING TO FIX THEM???

There is nobody "producing" TBP. It is no longer in production. The mod was declared FINAL last september and the team disbanded.

[Shade]

there was a small invasion by a significant number of your team members launching personal attacks against myself and my fellow team members. In doing so they were acting on behalf of your team

Interesting statement, given that SCP internal access != TBP internal access. In short, the only members who could "invade" your internal forum are the people who should have access in the first place, either by being HLP admins or by, or all things, being members of the TBP team.

Of the first category I can think of two, and of the second category I can think of four (one of whom is also a member of the first category). So five in all. So, what we have are, besides the one admin, potentially up to four members of TBP launching personal attacks against members of TBP? And by doing that, speaking for all the members of the SCP and yet not at all speaking for the members of TBP? If they're speaking for one team that hasn't yet been consulted, certainly they would be speaking for the other team that hasn't yet been consulted as well, right? Or is TBP exempt from this "person = team" rule you've invented?

You want to blame someone for personal attacks? Fine. Blame them. But to say that the SCP team attacked you is a lie. Yes, I used the "L" word, because I'm done being nice, and it applies. The things you're blaming the SCP team for doing are things which the SCP team has not done. The decisions you claim the SCP team has made regarding TBP are decisions which the SCP team has NOT made, as they are still being debated, and in fact the debate is more about helping TBP fix its errors (and you don't even need to lift a finger) than cutting off support. Ergo it is another lie. Yes, I used the "L" word again, as it applies. I'm done being nice.

Further, you're massively twisting the facts in that vaunted "explaining the rules" post of yours. The reason we'd like a patch is because currently we can't fix many bugs that show in TBP. Why? The game is impossible to run in a debug build. You are complaining that the SCP would stop fixing bugs found with TBP data, while the truth is that it is your refusal to allow (not even make... just allow) any patch for TBP that makes it impossible for coders to actually do what you want them to do. Guess what? Reproduce the bug using retail or some mod that doesn't give 17 million debug warnings and it'll still get fixed, just don't expect SCP members to spend three hours clicking through debug warnings because TBP's data files are riddled with minor errors that you won't allow anyone to fix. And sure, TBP is final. But then all released games are. Incidentally, most released games still recieve patches post-release. To fix problems that lingered in the final version.

It may be that many of these problems didn't show in earlier builds. But then, we're not talking about earlier builds, are we? TBP already has builds which it (more or less) works on, and nothing the SCP can say or do will affect those. It was your choice to include a multiplayer element relying on newer builds, not ours. And similarly, it was your choice to not update - or allow others to update - the data to run on those newer builds without too many warnings, not ours. Yes, I can see how this is definitely our fault.

[General Battuta]

the people producing it are REFUSING TO FIX THEM???

There is nobody "producing" TBP. It is no longer in production. The mod was declared FINAL last september and the team disbanded.

Can't you just get a few people together from the old team and polish it a bit?

It doesn't seem like it'd be a huge amount of work. Why abandon this project when it's so near true completion?

[The E]

Well, as Goober stated, there are a group of fans working to fix those problems now, hopefully that will resolve some of the issues at least so that people can enjoy TBP without worrying about instability so much.

Well, i read that, and i applaud them. My post was directed more at IPAndrews, who seems to adopt the old Microsoft stance of "Bugs? Our product is complete and usable (under controlled conditions), we don't need to fix bugs..."
This is a bit disturbing, really.....

There is nobody "producing" TBP. It is no longer in production. The mod was declared FINAL last september and the team disbanded.

When what is wrong with someone producing a patch to fix problems that were existing back then? Or has this degraded into a clash of egos?