[chief1983]

3.6.10 RC3 with hopefully fixed warnings
3.6.10 RC3 INF with hopefully fixed warnings

This should fix the issue we think was causing the connection drops for a lot of you guys, without requiring the removal of any code for 3.6.10.  Should play nicely alongside regular 3.6.10 for multi, but get as many people to use it as you can so we can be sure it plays as well or better than RC2.  Will have an INF one up shortly for TBP matches.

Edit:  INF now up

[Aardwolf]

Is this related to the nul vec warnings, or some other warnings?

[FUBAR-BDHR]

Standalones are running it. 

[portej05]

This is related to some warning code which was inserted, but which if hit will actually have some interesting side effects.
We're hoping that a simple change will fix the issue(s) that you guys have been experiencing.

[captain-custard]

Standalones are running it. 

Can you explain how your getting your standalones running as we are having problems doing this.....

[portej05]

Please fill me in on that one as well! I couldn't get the standalones showing up on FS2NetD last time I tried.

[FUBAR-BDHR]

Well first thing to do is make sure you multi is working buy running it like a regular game and getting to the lobby and starting a game that way.  If that all works then all you should have to do is check the -standalone option.  It will use your login info from your settings.  You can get more advanced with a custom multi.cfg file but you don't need it. 

[The E]

The problem here is that some of us (me, for example) can't get our games to be visible for others. And yes, all relevant ports are as open as they can be, we are able to play games (and host them when using a standalone) just fine, which is very, very weird. Then there's the thing that the games we make show up just fine on the fs2net webpage, although I hear that's being worked on.
Right now, FS2 multiplayer, although improving steadily, is still very much beta.

[chief1983]

Not so weird, when you host via a standalone you're not really hosting, the standalone is.  When you host normally, the webpage shows the games because it just polls FS2NetD for the current games, whereas when someone else is in game and tries to view the games, it polls FS2NetD and then attempts to verify whether the server is actually up or not.  If it can't verify that it doesn't display it to the user.

[karajorma]

We really do need to come up with a better term for the person running the game on a standalone than host since that is also used for the person running a non-standalone game or we're going to get a lot more posts like those last two.

By order of Karajorma the player in charge of a multplayer standalone game is now known as the MC rather than the host until we find a better term.

TheE meant that we can get people to host a non-standalone game on their own PC and have it work correctly but if they host a standalone it doesn't. This has nothing to do with who is MC.

[chief1983]

...can't get our (hosted) games to be visible for others. And yes, all relevant ports are as open as they can be, we are able to play (join) games (and host (MC) them when using a standalone) just fine...

That does not sound to me like karajorma just said it was supposed to sound.  It sounds like what I was talking about.

[The E]

Oh boy. What confusion have I caused here?

My point was:
1. I can't create games that are visible to others (when using the "Create Game" button), although those games show up just fine on the fs2net website, and are counted properly in the lobby.
2. I can't run a standalone, with the same symptoms, i.e. the standalone is listed on the website, but isn't visible to anyone.
3. I can, however, hijack one of the standalones and MC a game there.

This is most definitely not good behaviour, as there is no indication given by the game as to why it behaves this way. I know that there are issues with the fs2net site that are being worked on, but this means that the entire multiplayer experience is not as smooth as it should be, IMHO.

[karajorma]

Oh boy. What confusion have I caused here?

Looks like it was me who got it wrong not chief. I thought you were on about a different problem. Chief is correct about the reason you can MC but can't host.

My point was:
1. I can't create games that are visible to others (when using the "Create Game" button), although those games show up just fine on the fs2net website, and are counted properly in the lobby.
2. I can't run a standalone, with the same symptoms, i.e. the standalone is listed on the website, but isn't visible to anyone.
3. I can, however, hijack one of the standalones and MC a game there.

This is most definitely not good behaviour, as there is no indication given by the game as to why it behaves this way. I know that there are issues with the fs2net site that are being worked on, but this means that the entire multiplayer experience is not as smooth as it should be, IMHO.

I thought you were having the same problem custard had. He could get a game he hosted on non-standalones to work (people could join) but couldn't get them to work if he ran a standalone (listed, but no one could see it). He could do 1 & 3 not 2. This issue is a definite code bug in the FS2NetD server.

If you can't get people to join whichever way you host then the problem is more likely due to network misconfiguration. I can explain exactly why it doesn't work but the game appears on FS2NetD if you want.

If we can ever get NAT-punchthrough working on FS2NetD that problem should go away for a lot more people.

If you want to look into your problem, catch me on IRC some time when I'm free (this weekend would be good) and we'll run a session with Wireshark to confirm my diagnosis.

[The E]

I'll take you up on that. Thanks, Kara.

[karajorma]

Okay, let me give you a quick summary of how this all works. This is hugely simplified but it should give you the gist of how it all works.

You run a multiplayer game and start hosting on your PC.

1) Your PC tries to contact FS2NetD to tell it that you're running a server
2) A packet is built and sent to your router. Your router then stamps the packet with it's own IP address and sends it off to FS2NetD. It then writes down FS2NetD's IP address and says "Anything that comes from this IP address is meant to go back to your PC"
3) FS2NetD receives the packet and says "Aha, there is a server that can be reached from this address." It then sticks the details up on the website. Remember FS2NetD does not know the IP address of your PC. It knows the IP address of your router since that was what was stamped on the packet.

That's the server side of things. Client side goes like this.

1) You connect to FS2NetD.
2) Your computer sends a packet to FS2NetD asking "Are there any servers up?". The client's router takes note that a packet was sent to FS2NetD's address.
3) FS2NetD receives your packet and sends back a packet saying "Yeah, here's a list of servers I know about"
4) The packet arrives at your firewall. The Firewall says "Ah yes. I know who this packet is meant to go to. I remember them sending a packet to the same IP address earlier" and it sends the packet to the correct port of your PC.
5) Your PC gets the packet and FSO now knows where the servers are but nothing else about them.
6) FSO then builds a new packet for the multiplayer server itself saying "tell me about yourself". It then sends the packet to port 7808 of the IP address it got from FS2NetD. If you remember this is the address of the router the multiplayer server is on.
7) The packet is stamped with the IP address of the client machine router and sent off to IP address of the multiplayer server's router.

This is where the problem starts.

8) The router of the multiplayer server gets the packet from the client machine. But it doesn't have the faintest clue what to do with it. The IP address on the packet is it's own address. It looks in the table where it writes down information but there is no sign that any computer on its network ever sent any packets to that IP address of the client. At this point one of two things happens.

a) If the router has port 7808 set to be forwarded, it send the packet there and wipes it's hands of the problem.
b) If it doesn't then it has no clue what to do so it discards the packet.

Remember that step 6 will happen for every firewall you have between your PC and the router.

9) If the packet finally reaches FSO then it now has enough details about the server to be able to display it on the list of servers.


As you can see that explains the behaviour you see in-game. The number of servers in the lobby is correct since the game gets that from FS2NetD directly but the servers don't show up because it only shows them after it has successfully contacted the server itself. It also shows why forwarding ports solves the problem for so many people. It also explains why swapping who is the server and then swapping back often solves visibility problems. Cause now both computers will have done step 6 and both will now have details for each other in the router's tables.

[FUBAR-BDHR]

One thing I have seen that will cause this problem is even if you have 7808 and 7117 open if you have your firewall setting too high and it's masking the last couple of your IP address then you will get this issue as well. 

[chief1983]

I'd like to point out that if you have a router between your computer and the internet, chances are you don't need the Windows firewall.  You can go so far as to disable the service probably, it shouldn't matter.  Unless you _like_ being notified every time an unknown app tries to access the internet.  Personally I'm happy with just the port protection the router provides.  Software firewalls cause too much headache usually.  If you _are_ directly connected to the internet though, you may just want something there to protect you a bit.  Still, the worst I've seen happen to a box with no firewall was the Blaster worm infection in 2003.

[FUBAR-BDHR]

Well back on topic.  I checked the logs since I put this version up.  Still seeing quite a few nul vec3d:812  errors with both the retail and the MediaVPs.  One unexplained crash with nothing logged in fs2_open.log yesterday.  Error log just shows an access violation and a stack dump.