Author Topic: Zombie dogs in the lab  (Read 27450 times)

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Offline Bobboau

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so you are saying that a sponge is on the same level as a human?
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Offline aldo_14

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Originally posted by TrashMan


I used " " to indicate that I think it's crap.

I do consider all life sacred and I don't consider animals lower in any case. Hell, I don't hurt animals at all - I even let a few spiders in my apartment..and it works too.. it's bug-free without me resotring to any sprays or anything..they keep the bugs away...call it a symbiosis)
The only time when I make exceptions is parasytes..


In effect, there is no logical basis to call an animal lower than us humans are....
Name one reason why they are lower..

WE rule the Earth?
So did hte dinasours, and for far longer then us...Does that make us lower than them?

We build thing?
So do animals, alltough on a smaller and simpler scale..they don't need more anyway.

We have culture?
So do animals - the recent studies confirmed that.


We ARE different, but does that automaticly make us batter?


2 things;

Reasons why animals are considered lower; less cognitive ability (less ability to problem solve or use tools), simple inability to compete with humans for territory (we are very good at extermination, after all), inability to create food sources (i.e. such as in farming).

Ruling the Earth; er, the dinosaurs weren't a single species. The only valid comparison to make in that case would be mammals versus dinosaurs.

 

Offline Ford Prefect

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There is one gargantuan thing that definitively seperates us from all other life on this planet, and that is language. Not communication-- language. The emergence of language was more than a revolution in communication; it made us far more intelligent by opening the door to abstract and metaphorical thought, without which civilization is not possible.

Stop and think for a moment about how you handle every single piece of sensory data that enters your brain. It's all inescapably tied to words. Even words are based on words. Now try as hard as you can to imagine processing your thoughts without language. That is why we are seperate from all other animals. (That combined with opposable thumbs, which allowed us to actualize our potential.)
"Mais est-ce qu'il ne vient jamais à l'idée de ces gens-là que je peux être 'artificiel' par nature?"  --Maurice Ravel

 

Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by Ford Prefect
There is one gargantuan thing that definitively seperates us from all other life on this planet, and that is language. Not communication-- language. The emergence of language was more than a revolution in communication; it made us far more intelligent by opening the door to abstract and metaphorical thought, without which civilization is not possible.

Stop and think for a moment about how you handle every single piece of sensory data that enters your brain. It's all inescapably tied to words. Even words are based on words. Now try as hard as you can to imagine processing your thoughts without language. That is why we are seperate from all other animals. (That combined with opposable thumbs, which allowed us to actualize our potential.)


Although the use of language is not beyond animals (as evidenced by sign language in apes; they're able, IIRC, to form new concepts and express them in word groups).  I'm not sure if our sort of cognitive-stroke-illustrative language is unique to humans, although I'd expect it to be, because there's no real way to tell otherwise (is there?) in an animal like a dolphin or bee (the latter should be pretty obvious it's not near human intelligence, but the complexity of its communication methods does kind of illustrate the difficulty of understanding communications).

It could be, alternatively, that the main difference between humans and animals is imagination; the ability to see outlandish (i.e. compared to the sort of base imagination required for problem solving in say, apes and parrots) scenarios and how to make happen/prevent them.

 

Offline Bobboau

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no other animal has nukes
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 

Offline Ford Prefect

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Humans, first of all, are the only animal with the vocal equipent necessary to produce the wide range of sounds that form a language. (No, not even parrots have it.)

There are many animals that have learned to associate sounds with certain objects or basic concepts, but that is not language, which must have rules of grammar and syntax, because otherwise it is limited to very primitive structures. In addition, our languages are the only form of communication that actually uses itself to describe other aspects of itself. This is how we are able to conceive abstract ideas, which form the basis of government, money, philosophy, art, mathematics, and basically anything that does not concretely exist. In short, we are the only animal that is capable of thinking about how we think, because such complex thought structures are simply impossible without a system that is capable of modifying itself to build new compartments and categories for an infinitely complex universe.
"Mais est-ce qu'il ne vient jamais à l'idée de ces gens-là que je peux être 'artificiel' par nature?"  --Maurice Ravel

 

Offline Sandwich

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Originally posted by Bobboau
no other animal has nukes


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Offline Martinus

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Quote
Originally posted by Ford Prefect
Humans, first of all, are the only animal with the vocal equipent necessary to produce the wide range of sounds that form a language. (No, not even parrots have it.)

There are many animals that have learned to associate sounds with certain objects or basic concepts, but that is not language, which must have rules of grammar and syntax, because otherwise it is limited to very primitive structures. In addition, our languages are the only form of communication that actually uses itself to describe other aspects of itself. This is how we are able to conceive abstract ideas, which form the basis of government, money, philosophy, art, mathematics, and basically anything that does not concretely exist. In short, we are the only animal that is capable of thinking about how we think, because such complex thought structures are simply impossible without a system that is capable of modifying itself to build new compartments and categories for an infinitely complex universe.

[color=66ff00]I'd think carefully about that reasoning. Dolphins, whales and birds are known to communicate a wide array of different things. The entire point of language is to allow a creature to convey meaning, something these creatures do albeit in a seemingly simpler fashion.

So long and thanks for all the fish. :)
[/color]

 

Offline Ford Prefect

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I'm not just pulling these things out of my ass; modern linguists will back me up on this. (It's my mom's field of expertise, also.)

Just because language is for communication doesn't mean that all communication is language. It is a simple fact that humans are the only animals that have what meets the scientific definition of language, and the difference between dolphins clicking and humans speaking is an immense gap of complexity.
"Mais est-ce qu'il ne vient jamais à l'idée de ces gens-là que je peux être 'artificiel' par nature?"  --Maurice Ravel

 

Offline Martinus

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Quote
Originally posted by Ford Prefect
I'm not just pulling these things out of my ass; modern linguists will back me up on this. (It's my mom's field of expertise, also.)

Just because language is for communication doesn't mean that all communication is language. It is a simple fact that humans are the only animals that have what meets the scientific definition of language, and the difference between dolphins clicking and humans speaking is an immense gap of complexity.

[color=66ff00]You'd probably need to quote a source then.

I just did a quick dictionary search: Link
Note point number 7.
[/color]

 

Offline Ford Prefect

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But note that this is a dictionary definition, and thus acknowledges colloquial uses of words as valid. You can call what dolphins do whatever you want, but it's still different from what we do.

I can't find any relevant articles online, but I would suggest reading Stephen Pinker's work, which talks about the same things I am.
"Mais est-ce qu'il ne vient jamais à l'idée de ces gens-là que je peux être 'artificiel' par nature?"  --Maurice Ravel

 

Offline Bobboau

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pinker fucking rocks BTW
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Offline Martinus

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[color=66ff00]I only pointed out the dolphin reference as an interesting coincidence the main point that I had hoped you'd see was 1a.

I have seen a interesting program about Stephen Pinker's blank slate theories but a lot of his material seems very hit and miss so I decided that if I were interested in the subject I'd have a much more comprehensive look at what's available.
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Offline Ford Prefect

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Originally posted by Maeglamor
[color=66ff00]I only pointed out the dolphin reference as an interesting coincidence the main point that I had hoped you'd see was 1a.[/color]

Even so, if semantics is ignored, there is a qualitative difference between what humans do and what any other animal does to communicate. Ironically, what we're doing right now is a case in point; we're struggling to transcend the common boundaries of our language in an attempt to make points about that language. Let's see Coco the gorilla do that! :)
"Mais est-ce qu'il ne vient jamais à l'idée de ces gens-là que je peux être 'artificiel' par nature?"  --Maurice Ravel

 

Offline Nico

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Originally posted by Bobboau
so you are saying that a sponge is on the same level as a human?


I'm sure a sponge could voice its opinion, it'd share the same as you, Bob :p "hint hint"
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Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by Ford Prefect
Humans, first of all, are the only animal with the vocal equipent necessary to produce the wide range of sounds that form a language. (No, not even parrots have it.)

There are many animals that have learned to associate sounds with certain objects or basic concepts, but that is not language, which must have rules of grammar and syntax, because otherwise it is limited to very primitive structures. In addition, our languages are the only form of communication that actually uses itself to describe other aspects of itself. This is how we are able to conceive abstract ideas, which form the basis of government, money, philosophy, art, mathematics, and basically anything that does not concretely exist. In short, we are the only animal that is capable of thinking about how we think, because such complex thought structures are simply impossible without a system that is capable of modifying itself to build new compartments and categories for an infinitely complex universe.


Language isn't defined by vocal equipment, though; hence the whole sign language example.  There is, IIRC, evidence that apes using sign language can form new word  groups/expressions- the only problem is that even with a human-devised method of communication it's still highly interpretive and what a person regards as intelligent language use (albeit only equivalent to a young human - about 2-3 years I believe).

It's an interesting question with regards to introspection; IMO one of the defining characteristics of human intelligence is that ability to conceive abstract ideas.  But I don't think that is something which can be defined by language alone; language can facilitate the expression of it, but I'm not convinced it is 'responsible' for it.

Of course, it's probably interesting that the animals we regard as most intelligent are the ones that behave and act - or are capable of acting - most like humanity.

 

Offline TrashMan

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Originally posted by Bobboau
so you are saying that a sponge is on the same level as a human?


Ok - let me rephrase that - animals with brains (mostly mamals)

Quote

Reasons why animals are considered lower; less cognitive ability (less ability to problem solve or use tools), simple inability to compete with humans for territory (we are very good at extermination, after all), inability to create food sources (i.e. such as in farming).


The problems we put before animals are problems created by US from OUR point of view and OUR way of thinking. I wouldn't call it representaive for animals. Regardless, mesuring intelligence is right down impossible even for humans - scientist tody say IQ tests are crap.
but granted, they may have a leser cognitive ability (child-level), but how does that make them lower? Or do you cosider children and babies "lower"?

Competing for territory is irrelavant. If a massive kiler virus or uber-venomus insects or something was to exterminate all people on the planet, would it be higher than us? After all, didn't it take over all our territory?

Animals don't need farms. They live in balance with nature - it is us who are overpopulating and shamelessly using every resource we can find.
but for your information - tehre are some animals that do grow food - ant's for instance. They grow mushrooms and keep a certin insect species as cattle...
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Offline TrashMan

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Originally posted by Ford Prefect

Just because language is for communication doesn't mean that all communication is language. It is a simple fact that humans are the only animals that have what meets the scientific definition of language, and the difference between dolphins clicking and humans speaking is an immense gap of complexity.


Actually, dolphins and whales communicate on a very complex manner. The frequency range and oscillations they use surpass by far our vocal capabilities..

In other words, the informational potential of their communication is far greater then ours. What they are saying to eachtoher is a mystey though...

B.t.w. - di you know that dolphins acutally have accents?
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Offline Bobboau

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Originally posted by TrashMan


Ok - let me rephrase that - animals with brains (mostly mamals)
what does that have to do with anything, an animal is an animal, fine, is a worm, or cockroach on the same level as a human?



Competing for territory is irrelavant. If a massive kiler virus or uber-venomus insects or something was to exterminate all people on the planet, would it be higher than us? After all, didn't it take over all our territory?

yes, they beat us in evolution, and therefore are a better design, ubber intelegence has a cost, and if that cost does not pay off  it becomes a huge liability, fortuneately it seems to be paying off. when an animal goes extinct because it gets out competed by another animal then the new animal is better than the old, and we have replaced every animal we have yet encountered, so untill we come upon an animal who we cannot replace it is reasonable to say we are simply the superior life form on the planet currently.
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Offline aldo_14

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Dammit, my sodding reply got lost.

Um;

1/ Virus is not alive (doesn't count)
2/ If an insect or other animal was able to wipe out humanity, then it would be top of the food chain and hence 'higher'.
3/ Being a 'higher' form of life entails the combination of intelligence, ability to control environment, etc; not just the singular ability of one.
4/Territory is highly relevant.  It's a perfect example of human intelligence and ability to adapt to other territories.  I don't think there is a single advanced species (i.e. not single celled, etc, but reasonably intelligent) that has the 'range' humanity has.
5/All animals have brains or some form of CNS control.
6/RE: dolphin, etc, communications.  Note that human communication is denoted by the ability to express complex thoughts via combination of terms.  The range of our vocal cords, etc, has nothing to do with the intelligence or content of human communicaiton.  At most it would mean dolphins et al could possible 'talk' faster.
7/It's completely pointless to bring up 'children as lower forms of life' as an argument (it's a lazy attempt to use a strawman IMO).  Firstly, you'd have to compare human vs animal children at the same developmental stage where AFAIK humans have a far greater capacity for learning and larger brain mass.  Secondly, children are still human; it's pretty obvious you don't partition species into age groups for definition, so you can't do so in comparison (unless you want a deliberately biased comparison).  Thirdly, human children are by nature 'lesser' than adults; they are still learning, developing and have worse judgement amongst other things.
8/humanity ****ing up the planet is just evidence of our success as a species;  No other species on earth has reached this level of control; it's not of any value to make assumptions that if another species reached this 'level', they'd be any better at managing the planet (in fact, they don't have the cognitive ability to identify a problem or communicate it, so they could be worse).
9/ the intrinsic 'balance' animals have with nature is simple environmental pressures.  It's not attributable to that species 'intelligence' in doing so, just the interplay of competing plant and animal life.
10/Intelligence can be measured demonstratively; IQ test is just an attempt to put a specific rating on human intelligence, but it's daft to suggest that's the exemplar for all forms of 'intelligence test'.
11/The very concept of intelligence is a human one.  As is every single arguement and counter arguement that can be used for this debate; you can't argue in terms of human perspective so long as you are human.