Author Topic: The Assault Gunboat - Unborn  (Read 38653 times)

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Re: The Assault Gunboat - Unborn

...expert level of detailing that makes his model look good rather than the overall ship design...


I thought I was alone in thinking that. It's a relief to know there are others who are noticing the same thing. There is at least one of Fractalsponge's designs that has a great shape, but I think he relies heavily on detail to hide weaknesses in the form.

 

Offline CountBuggula

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Re: The Assault Gunboat - Unborn
It's also one of the reasons why it's totally unsuitable for being used as a game resource, even if he gave it to us.  A good model for designed for use in game is built from the ground up in a completely different way than a super detailed render model such as his.  Most of those details that are actually modeled in 3d would need to have been created instead as a height or normal map, plus additional texture work.

 
Re: The Assault Gunboat - Unborn

A common complaint of the original Star Wing design from the video game was that it didn’t look Imperial enough. Given that both the Lambda Shuttle and Star Wing are both tri-wings designed by Cygnus Spaceworks, it makes sense that they share some common design motifs. I also wanted it to have a more armored look. If the X Wing is like an F16, then the Star Wing should be an A10.

That makes sense now. I'd been seeing the lambda style stuff thrown around and was confused. Interesting enough it was Sienar who made the shuttle. Cygnus had a sub-license to make them and decided to stick guns on it. 
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lambda-class_T-4a_shuttle Im sure you guys had seen it but just in case anyone wanted evidence.
I like the A10. Maybe thats why I've always liked the Star Wing.
Looking forward to seeing more progress  :yes:
Too many ideas.....not enough FREDing time!

 
Re: The Assault Gunboat - Unborn
I like Ansel's/Fractalsponge's take. And I disagree. I think it's the shape. The detailing just enhances it. I have renders from his WIP and it looks good naked. Some of the designs shown here, while good, look like they'd be a better match for the Missile Boat than the Gunboat, but that's just my opinion. Considering that several of Ansel's ships made it into The Essential Guide to Warfare and are now canon, I think it's a safe bet that his take is a pretty good one to follow. I understand not wanting to straight copy someone, but that's like saying you want to do a new version of the TIE Fighter and have it look only vaguely like a TIE Fighter. And I'm all for re-imaging... when the original design looks like hammered dog crap. The original E-wing fits that bill, and Starslayer and Brand did fantastic jobs re-imaging it. Now the Missile Boat... that looks like hammered dog crap and needs to be re-imaged. On the Gunboat, if I wasn't going to go with Ansel's, then I'd go with Starslayer's.

 

Offline swashmebuckle

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Re: The Assault Gunboat - Unborn
It missed Halloween, but the curse of the gunboat thread is alive and well!

 
Re: The Assault Gunboat - Unborn
Yes.

Yes, it is.

 

Offline rhettro

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Re: The Assault Gunboat - Unborn
I like Ansel's/Fractalsponge's take. And I disagree.

I can't say that my current design is better than Fractalsponge's, he has a lot more experience at this than I do. As for you example, there is no way I would try to reimagine the Tie Fighter, it is way to iconic for me to mess with. With the Gunboat though, if you look at the original design from the video game, I don't see anything from a design perspective that ties it back to any other Star Wars ship. My feeling is that the original designer simply cobbled together something that fit the functional role without much regard toward making it look like it belonged in the Star Wars universe. Fractalsponge did a masterful job of updating the original design, too bad the original design looks like crap (in my opinion. :) )

So to update everyone, I haven't done anymore work on my design. In truth, the longer I live with it the more I don't like it.  I'm going to go back and play with the proportions a little bit and rework the cockpit to be more like Starslayer's design. I still think it important for the model to look like it was built by the same company that built the Lambda, without looking like a repurposed Lambda Shuttle.

 

Offline rhettro

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Re: The Assault Gunboat - Unborn
It missed Halloween, but the curse of the gunboat thread is alive and well!

It's a minefield, but I knew that coming in.

 

Offline CountBuggula

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Re: The Assault Gunboat - Unborn
I like Ansel's/Fractalsponge's take. And I disagree.

I can't say that my current design is better than Fractalsponge's, he has a lot more experience at this than I do. As for you example, there is no way I would try to reimagine the Tie Fighter, it is way to iconic for me to mess with. With the Gunboat though, if you look at the original design from the video game, I don't see anything from a design perspective that ties it back to any other Star Wars ship. My feeling is that the original designer simply cobbled together something that fit the functional role without much regard toward making it look like it belonged in the Star Wars universe. Fractalsponge did a masterful job of updating the original design, too bad the original design looks like crap (in my opinion. :) )

So to update everyone, I haven't done anymore work on my design. In truth, the longer I live with it the more I don't like it.  I'm going to go back and play with the proportions a little bit and rework the cockpit to be more like Starslayer's design. I still think it important for the model to look like it was built by the same company that built the Lambda, without looking like a repurposed Lambda Shuttle.

Rhetto, I totally support what you're doing and the direction you've chosen.  I hope you're able to find some proportions you like by going back to Starslayer's concept - I think that's a great place to start from.  Keep it up and don't let yourself get too discouraged.  This IS quite the minefield.

Also, the Tie Fighter is a horrible example since it's a film ship.  Anything that appeared in episodes 4-6 is being reproduced as faithfully as possible here.  That said, the mod leads (Brand and Chief) have stated very explicitly that the only cannon that matters is the films, and anything else if fair game for a complete re-imaging.  Unfortunately the Assault Gunboat is a really mixed bag in that there are plenty of people that love the design as seen in the X-Wing games, but also a large group (including myself, Rhetto, and many team members) that didn't care for it at all.  That absolutely means a dangerous minefield when we're talking about a property so passionate as Star Wars.

It's just important to keep that all in mind when we're discussing and critiquing here.  It doesn't matter how much EU clout a ship has in any particular configuration - if it wasn't in the movies, the artist can do whatever he wants with it.  And hopefully impress us all with something amazing and new, that fits the movie look and design far better.

 
Re: The Assault Gunboat - Unborn
Have you considered using the gunboat in the launch animation from tie fighter as a good basis for the cockpit. It could easily be converted into a side by side two seater if that was one of your intentions. It can easily be turned into a slanted cockpit and lastly it removes the problem of the fragile neck issue giving it a more sturdy look, something the gunboat probably should have.
In case you haven't seen it yet.
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070805183022/starwars/images/d/d3/GUNhanger.jpg
Too many ideas.....not enough FREDing time!

 

Offline CountBuggula

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Re: The Assault Gunboat - Unborn
Have you considered using the gunboat in the launch animation from tie fighter as a good basis for the cockpit. It could easily be converted into a side by side two seater if that was one of your intentions. It can easily be turned into a slanted cockpit and lastly it removes the problem of the fragile neck issue giving it a more sturdy look, something the gunboat probably should have.
In case you haven't seen it yet.
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070805183022/starwars/images/d/d3/GUNhanger.jpg

That was the first starting point from the LAST attempt at creating this cursed vehicle.  I'd say it's a good idea to steer away from that particular image as concept art.

 
Re: The Assault Gunboat - Unborn
I never realised one vehicle could be so incredibly difficult for a community to come to a general consensus on what they want it to look like.
Come to think about it even Lucas-arts had several incarnations in one game. The launch animation, the opening cut-scene and the hi-res graphic model all were different to each other.

None the less, I'm sure rhettro will create an excellent design once he works out a design he's satisfied with. As long as it has five wings, two ion cannons (preferably on the vertical stabilizer) and at least two lasers i think ill be happy.
As much as it is a contentious issue, i think starslayers artwork is a good base design if the one I suggested earlier is a bad idea.
Hope to see some new stuff soon, keep up the good work.
Too many ideas.....not enough FREDing time!

 

Offline CountBuggula

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Re: The Assault Gunboat - Unborn
Honestly I think StarSlayer's concept art is the best overall design I've seen yet for the Gunboat.  That doesn't mean Rhettro has to exactly duplicate it, but I'd say it's as good a starting point as any.

Edit:
Just so you know how complicated of a history this ship has...here is the first Assault Gunboat attempt way back in '08 by Vertigo.  The thread quickly devolved into an...argument...about what the role of the Assault Gunboat should be, and how it fits in the Imperial Fleet.  Also, some discussion about the actual craft design.

Then in '11 TomShak decided to take a jab at it here.  While the model wasn't finished to completion, at least the discussion in that thread, combined with various WIP changes and models thrown around, gave us some really good ideas about the direction we want to go with the model.  And by "we" I mean there was at least concensus among the mod leaders and most other team members (and to be clear, I am not one of them).

An offshoot of that thread is here where we condinued debating the role and purpose of the Gunboat in the Impirial Navy.

So...yeah - this ship has a long and "colorful" history in the Fate of the Galaxy mod.  Rhetto is really brave to step up and make an attempt at it, and I give him props for that.  I just hope that before anyone criticizes his design decisions that they've read through the previous discussions so we're not re-hashing the same arguments over and over.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 12:39:35 pm by CountBuggula »

 
Re: The Assault Gunboat - Unborn
No, the TIE is the perfect example because it sets the boundary on what you feel you're allowed to change. These things are all canon, yet TPTB here have decided that some things will be sacrosanct and others are up for grabs. I don't really have a problem with this, but recognize that it is exactly what happened. I mean, in my version of SW, only ANH is canon and everything else was just conjecture. The other movies were just sequels and prequels and we all know that the sequels and prequels are never as good as the real thing. So in my version, the B-wing is called the T-wing and the A-wing looks like McQuarrie's concept art and not the horrible thing that ILM did to it. See what I did there? Really, though, I prefer to take the approach that it's all canon. If something looks like it needs a re-do (like the A-wing, that one I was actually serious about) then fine, go for it. Offer it as a variant. Look at it like the FW 190 A vs FW 190 D: Clearly the same fighter, but also clearly different versions. Or look at it like the A2 leather jacket (also WW2 era). These things were built on contract from a set of specs. Every factory followed the specs, and jackets from each factory looked different, even on points that were specifically called out in the specs.

Now, on the AG... I can't get behind the argument that the AG "looks too Rebel." If you don't want it with color and rust that's fine, but there's nothing wrong with the shape.* It looks like a combat derivative of the Lambda, which fits the backstory fine.. I would probably opt for Starslayer's cockpit over Fractal's, but otherwise they're both good to go. As was pointed out in some of those other threads (and seemingly not really acknowledged), the X-wing was an Imperial design. It was just stolen and given/sold to the Rebels.

*The fuselage is always going to look like three sticks glued together, unless you put a hood on it like the DeSanto Viper's.

I'm not attacking Rhettro. I applaud him for tackling a difficult design. When you share your work you know there will be some people who like it and some who don't (the response I received to my XJ X-wing was disappointing, but I don't let it get to me because I'm the only one who will have models of it and it's how I want it to look). I expect a similar response here. I'm okay with it if it's the way he wants it and TPTB here sign off on it. I won't use it, but I still respect his integrity. There are some designs that are just blah. I hated the E-wing, in all of its close-but-not-quite-the-same "official" iterations. Then came Starslayer and BrandX and, aside from the side intakes, the E-wing is now awesome. For me, the AG is similar. I've never liked the design until I saw what Fractalsponge did with it. Then I saw Starslayer's. The AG is now awesome. There's wanting to make something your own, and there's recognizing that "as good as it's likely going to get" has probably already been done. (It's like the Camaro. It was perfect in the late '60s/early '70s, and it's been all downhill ever since.)

Fractal's work is interesting in that he may be just a fan, but several (8, IIRC) of his designs are now official (from his work in The Essential Guide to Warfare). Those were all cap-ships. I would not be surprised if he worked on another book and his TIE/Variants and other Imperial attack craft became official. At that point I assume the argument will be back to "yes, but it's not in the first three movies, so we still get to change it." The point being, you can always justify doing whatever you want.

 

Offline rhettro

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Re: The Assault Gunboat - Unborn
Thanks for your input Hawk. In regards to what is considered a “canon” AG design, I am sure there are plenty of good arguments to be made on opposing sides. But from my point of view, since the very idea of what should be considered “canon” for the AG can’t be agreed upon, I’m not going to feel bound by one person’s take over another. The main “canon” aspects that concern me are the role it fit in X-Wing, its general size and crew size. Beyond that, I’m going to try and focus on what I think are the board’s expectations for the AG (as nebulous as they may be) and move forward. As stated previously, there is no way I can please everyone, so I’m not going to try. And that isn’t a slam on this board, that is true of any creative process one may want to pursue. That said, that doesn’t mean I won’t listen to dissenting opinions. I do want to hear them, whether I incorporate those ideas or not it will help me bring form to my own vision of what the AG should be. Per my last update, I’ve been waiting for inspiration to strike me so I can settle on a design I think I’ll be happy with over the long term. So far, nothing has really struck me yet, so I figured while I was waiting, I would try and do a little more modeling on Star Slayer’s design to see how it looks in 3D.  It is still very schematic but it should help people understand what it might look like in game.


Beyond that I’ve been messing around in SketchUp trying to refine what my design should be. Below is my attempt for a less bulky looking version of my last design.


Thoughts?

 

Offline CountBuggula

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Re: The Assault Gunboat - Unborn
@Hawkeye:

My point about the TIE being a bad example is because for the purposes of this mod, the only things that are canon are the original trilogy (Eps IV-VI).  I looked in the Noobie FAQ but unfortunately it's not stated out there, but Brand and Chief have stated repeatedly that this particular mod is using those and only those as an official point of reference - which happens to go along really nicely with my particular feelings on the matter.  I understand that there are many differing views and opinions about these aspects of Star Wars, but for this mod that's the only one that counts.  That was all I was trying to say.  And since the AG never appeared in the films, for this mod there is a lot of freedom in its design - while there isn't for a TIE fighter.

@Rhettro:

I love your start there!  The overall geometry feels very solid and in the right direction.  That's just my own opinion, but I like it.  I think there's plenty of room for you to play around with how the wing pods connect to the fuselage, but that's a great starting point.

That said, I'm not as big of a fan of your second image there.  I like what you're trying to do, but just don't think the execution really works.

 
Re: The Assault Gunboat - Unborn
Personally I like the look of starslayers design in 3D, I'm interested as to what it would look like if you incorporated the slanted pods in your sketch into it instead of the more standard side-on pods, might give it a more armoured look. However like CountBuggula I'm not big a fan on the rest of the sketch.
If you still want the slanted cockpit, you could maybe shorten the neck even more if you can so that the top of the body covers the plating above the canopy and give it a slight tilt. (If that makes sense.) Too much tilt might make it look weird.
Too many ideas.....not enough FREDing time!

 

Offline chief1983

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Re: The Assault Gunboat - Unborn
While you can follow along with 'whatever Lucas endorses is canon', you run into problems really quickly where canon starts to conflict with itself, like every prequel novel conflicting with the prequel trilogy, etc.  The assault gunboat began as an ugly bunch of polygons in the first X-wing game, and I don't think anything that's been proposed so far has been too far off from that first impression.  I do think rhettro has the perfect understanding of where the inspiration for this model needs to come from, and I applaud that, although at this point it shouldn't even have to be said.

rhettro, to address your direct question in your last post, the more I study what little there is on the gunboat, the more I'm thinking the pods need to be more aligned with the horizontal plane.  It may be one of the features that makes or breaks any association anyone would have with the XG-1.  Not sure what your thoughts on that are, but since you asked I'm being honest.  Rest of it looks fine :)
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Re: The Assault Gunboat - Unborn
First, let me apologize if I come off rough. It's not intentional. Sure, I'm a jerk (all of my friends say much worse), but I don't actually set out to be like that. So apologies if I ruffle feathers.

@CountBuggula -- That makes perfect sense and I can agree. No one would really know (because I didn't say anything), but I was looking at it from more than just how it would fit in this mod. I make toys. I'd like to see the AG as a toy. I'd like to see it as a toy that I'd like to have.

@Chief -- Very true, and I was hoping someone would say that. My only point was that it's very arbitrary to say "we're only using *this*."  Not saying it's bad, just arbitrary. Of course, when you drill down far enough, everything is arbitrary. :D

@Rhettro -- I quite like that. Maybe a little overall too wide, but I do really like where it's headed in this iteration. You're a good man. Very gracious in dealing with whiny people (most definitely me included). I'm glad to see you experimenting.

I agree with Chief in thinking that the pods should be more aligned in horizontally (I'm assuming we're talking the same thing here... not having them up-angled). That said... I absolutely despise the Missile Boat. It's supposed to be derived from the AG, but really doesn't look like it. Now, if you were to use your AG as a base, you could chop down the top fin and use the angled pods in place of the middle/angled fins and you'd be pretty much set. (and kill that stupid canard that the MB has on almost every pic)

 
Re: The Assault Gunboat - Unborn
And, marginally related, I always thought the AG was supposed to be a two-seater. Tandem or side-by-side, but it should seat two. Just saying. But, I know, it's a single.