Author Topic: BP: War in Heaven discussion  (Read 908655 times)

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Offline Firstdragon34

  • 27
  • Bowties = Awesomeness
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
That is very true, Norbert, but couldn't this frigate fire several kilometers away? Farther then the GTVA's Big Blue Beam?
A small voice in my head tells me they are have followed us here in the Milky Way. They follow us until we are dead at their feet. We are nomands of the stars, no longer the race that was loved by the Great Elders. My name is Kyral and this is my story of survival.

There is no sanctuary for us, in this Universe. We will fight the Terror for one last time on this Shining World. May the Transcendent judge us kindly in the Life Stream.

 

Offline Mars

  • I have no originality
  • 211
  • Attempting unreasonable levels of reasonable
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Yes, but range is only one component of combat effectiveness. Tev ships have a particular love for one-shotting everything out of existence, for instance.

 

Offline Firstdragon34

  • 27
  • Bowties = Awesomeness
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
The GTVA of course wanted that 'One shot, one kill,' option, after all they went through two wars with the Shivans.
A small voice in my head tells me they are have followed us here in the Milky Way. They follow us until we are dead at their feet. We are nomands of the stars, no longer the race that was loved by the Great Elders. My name is Kyral and this is my story of survival.

There is no sanctuary for us, in this Universe. We will fight the Terror for one last time on this Shining World. May the Transcendent judge us kindly in the Life Stream.

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

  • Captain Obvious
  • 212
  • Frenchie McFrenchface
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
The new-gen Tevs ships are just an attempt at emulating the Shivan shock jump tactics at their finest. Chimerae and Bellerophons are specifically designed as Sathanas hunters. They are also designed to fend multiple waves of low-tech Shivans bombers, instead of the advanced gunships the UEF likes to field.
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

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666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 

Offline Firstdragon34

  • 27
  • Bowties = Awesomeness
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
I am curious, what happened between the GTVA and the Vasudans? I hope Earth doesn't get bombarded in WIH.
A small voice in my head tells me they are have followed us here in the Milky Way. They follow us until we are dead at their feet. We are nomands of the stars, no longer the race that was loved by the Great Elders. My name is Kyral and this is my story of survival.

There is no sanctuary for us, in this Universe. We will fight the Terror for one last time on this Shining World. May the Transcendent judge us kindly in the Life Stream.

 

Offline crizza

  • 210
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Relationships have suffered and no, Earth will not be bombarded, since they need it intact^^

 

Offline TwentyPercentCooler

  • Operates at 375 kelvin
  • 28
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
You know what's an awesome weapon that doesn't get much attention in WiH? Hydra torpedoes.

Any chance we could get bomber-mounted Hydras someday? Could be a fun option to have alongside the Jackhammer/Sledgehammer/Warhammer, since we're gonna be seeing more of the Durga and hopefully Vajrahadra.

 

Offline crizza

  • 210
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
The Hydra is used if they're running out of apocalypse.
But it is still nice.

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

  • Captain Obvious
  • 212
  • Frenchie McFrenchface
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Hydra is a capitalship-grade swarm torpedo. There are about as much chances of seeing it mounted on a bomber as seeing an Apocalypse mounted on a bomber, aka none.
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

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666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 

Offline Mars

  • I have no originality
  • 211
  • Attempting unreasonable levels of reasonable
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
They're used in different combat situations. The Hyrdra is proficient against better point defenses, and against close in enemies, but it lacks the raw punch of the apocalypse

 

Offline Firstdragon34

  • 27
  • Bowties = Awesomeness
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
I want to see a UED Solaris kick some serious GTVA butt! I can imagine that thing wiping out half a Tev fleet before going down!
A small voice in my head tells me they are have followed us here in the Milky Way. They follow us until we are dead at their feet. We are nomands of the stars, no longer the race that was loved by the Great Elders. My name is Kyral and this is my story of survival.

There is no sanctuary for us, in this Universe. We will fight the Terror for one last time on this Shining World. May the Transcendent judge us kindly in the Life Stream.

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

  • Captain Obvious
  • 212
  • Frenchie McFrenchface
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Well, you do have the Toutatis kicking some GTD Hood butt. But then again, it's an Hecate. A Sanctus could have done it.
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

Mod management tools     -     Wiki stuff!     -     Help us help you

666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 

Offline Firstdragon34

  • 27
  • Bowties = Awesomeness
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
quote author=MatthTheGeek link=topic=70746.msg1547503#msg1547503 date=1315955396]
Well, you do have the Toutatis kicking some GTD Hood butt. But then again, it's an Hecate. A Sanctus could have done it.
[/quote]

*laughs* Oh, man I bet that Captain crapped his pants when he saw 3km Destroyer coming out subspace.  He probably took the logistic ship that was heading out. ;p
A small voice in my head tells me they are have followed us here in the Milky Way. They follow us until we are dead at their feet. We are nomands of the stars, no longer the race that was loved by the Great Elders. My name is Kyral and this is my story of survival.

There is no sanctuary for us, in this Universe. We will fight the Terror for one last time on this Shining World. May the Transcendent judge us kindly in the Life Stream.

 

Offline crizza

  • 210
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Uhm...the Solaris is considered to be the..."weakest" of her class...
On their own, no Solaris can take on a Fed fleet...

 

Offline Mars

  • I have no originality
  • 211
  • Attempting unreasonable levels of reasonable
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Solaris destroyers are pretty freaking tough, yes; but they're not "take out half the Fed fleet" tough.

 

Offline TwentyPercentCooler

  • Operates at 375 kelvin
  • 28
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Hydra is a capitalship-grade swarm torpedo. There are about as much chances of seeing it mounted on a bomber as seeing an Apocalypse mounted on a bomber, aka none.

Ah, rats. Oh well, it never hurts to dream that it could have been miniaturized sufficiently. I'm aware that it has both a shorter range and lower total damage than the Apocalypse, but point defenses in BP are frighteningly competent at either destroying warheads or shredding a bomber that gets close enough to have its warheads get through. It's a bad example because of the beefed up AI class, but just about the only time we see Durgas, engaging the Serkr corvettes, they get Swiss cheesed pretty quickly.

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

  • Captain Obvious
  • 212
  • Frenchie McFrenchface
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Ah, rats. Oh well, it never hurts to dream that it could have been miniaturized sufficiently.
Yup. It's called Warhammer.

You're welcome.
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

Mod management tools     -     Wiki stuff!     -     Help us help you

666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 

Offline TwentyPercentCooler

  • Operates at 375 kelvin
  • 28
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Ah, rats. Oh well, it never hurts to dream that it could have been miniaturized sufficiently.
Yup. It's called Warhammer.

You're welcome.

I was curious and did some (relatively) empirical testing.

Conditions:

Aggressor - UEB Durga
Range - Approx 2100m
Weapon - Warhammer swarm bomb
AI class: BP-Colonel

vs. Hyperion cruiser:
Sides are impenetrable. 50 salvos (400 bombs) out of 50 shot down by point defenses.
Top approach equally futile. 50/50 salvos shot down.
Bottom approach futile. 50/50 salvos shot down.
Front approach surprisingly futile. 50/50 salvos shot down.
Back is the weak point, no appreciable coverage.

vs. Chimera corvette:
Side approach free of holes. 50/50 salvos shot down.
Ditto for the top. 50/50 salvos shot down.
Bottom is well-covered. 50/50 salvos shot down.
Direct frontal approach is almost completely vulnerable.
Back approach has some coverage, but on a rough estimate approx 50%-80% of bombs get through.

vs. Bellerophon:
50/50 side approach bomb salvos shot down. Side approach on a Bellerophon is suicide thanks to placement of AAA beams.
50/50 top approach bomb salvos shot down.
50/50 bottom approach bomb salvos shot down.
As with the Chimera, front arc is almost completely uncovered and the aft coverage is woeful.

vs. Deimos, retrofitted with BP-era weaponry:
50/50 side salvos shot down.
Top coverage is easily overwhelmed.
50/50 bottom salvos shot down.
Again, the front is extremely vulnerable, although getting in the way of the business end of a slash beam makes the front approach a risky endeavor.
50/50 back salvos shot down; the Deimos is frightful from the back, and the ship most capable of protecting its engines from bombs.

Some interesting observations: the Hyperion cruiser is a nightmare to attack. The Chimera and Bellerophon seem to me to be flawed designs in combat with the UEF because the front beam emitters are almost completely defenseless. The Chimera probably has the worst overall point defense coverage. The Bellerophon is AAA beamrape except from the front and back. Besides having less than optimal anti-capital armament, the Deimos is just as competent in anti-strikecraft defense as its newer counterparts, especially when its missile launchers are armed with things that don't suck, although that's another discussion entirely.

After firing about 5000 total Warhammers, firing them at areas covered by point defenses still has dubious results, since the turrets will prioritize incoming warheads over any other targets. Depending on the ship and coverage area, some of these point defenses could likely handle 2-3x the volume of Warhammers that I was able to fire at them without breaking a sweat, and the low damage of individual Warhammer warheads makes the attrition rate an interesting data point. If I were a UEF analyst, I would deem it unacceptable. Yes, the test is flawed because the conditions absolutely don't reflect a battle environment, but when you start adding variables, it's hard to stop. If you're able to choose your angle of approach to fire at the weak points of the vessel you're attacking, you don't need Warhammers anyway. Warhammers are an attempt to compensate for less-than-ideal firing conditions.

I maintain my observation that BP-era point defenses are frighteningly competent.  :D

 

Offline Deadly in a Shadow

  • 29
  • Buntu!
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Ah, rats. Oh well, it never hurts to dream that it could have been miniaturized sufficiently.
Yup. It's called Warhammer.

You're welcome.

I was curious and did some (relatively) empirical testing.

Conditions:

Aggressor - UEB Durga
Range - Approx 2100m
Weapon - Warhammer swarm bomb
AI class: BP-Colonel

vs. Hyperion cruiser:
Sides are impenetrable. 50 salvos (400 bombs) out of 50 shot down by point defenses.
Top approach equally futile. 50/50 salvos shot down.
Bottom approach futile. 50/50 salvos shot down.
Front approach surprisingly futile. 50/50 salvos shot down.
Back is the weak point, no appreciable coverage.

vs. Chimera corvette:
Side approach free of holes. 50/50 salvos shot down.
Ditto for the top. 50/50 salvos shot down.
Bottom is well-covered. 50/50 salvos shot down.
Direct frontal approach is almost completely vulnerable.
Back approach has some coverage, but on a rough estimate approx 50%-80% of bombs get through.

vs. Bellerophon:
50/50 side approach bomb salvos shot down. Side approach on a Bellerophon is suicide thanks to placement of AAA beams.
50/50 top approach bomb salvos shot down.
50/50 bottom approach bomb salvos shot down.
As with the Chimera, front arc is almost completely uncovered and the aft coverage is woeful.

vs. Deimos, retrofitted with BP-era weaponry:
50/50 side salvos shot down.
Top coverage is easily overwhelmed.
50/50 bottom salvos shot down.
Again, the front is extremely vulnerable, although getting in the way of the business end of a slash beam makes the front approach a risky endeavor.
50/50 back salvos shot down; the Deimos is frightful from the back, and the ship most capable of protecting its engines from bombs.

Some interesting observations: the Hyperion cruiser is a nightmare to attack. The Chimera and Bellerophon seem to me to be flawed designs in combat with the UEF because the front beam emitters are almost completely defenseless. The Chimera probably has the worst overall point defense coverage. The Bellerophon is AAA beamrape except from the front and back. Besides having less than optimal anti-capital armament, the Deimos is just as competent in anti-strikecraft defense as its newer counterparts, especially when its missile launchers are armed with things that don't suck, although that's another discussion entirely.

If I remember right, the Chimera and the Bellerophon were never intended to be used in a long-length combat situation, more for tactial strikes. They were also never used as lone capital ships. Serkr Team is a good example. While they screw other capital ships, they can set up a relatively good anti-fighter screen together due to their close formation. And it also looks cool.

Oh and while the GTVA discovered the UEF relatively early, they didn't seem to informed the TEI to make some design changes.
"Ka-BOOOOOOOOM!!!!"
"Uh, Sir we can hear the explosion."
"No you can't, there is no air in space. Sound can't travel through a vacuum!"

 

Offline TwentyPercentCooler

  • Operates at 375 kelvin
  • 28
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Ah, rats. Oh well, it never hurts to dream that it could have been miniaturized sufficiently.
Yup. It's called Warhammer.

You're welcome.
snip

Yeah, that's why I didn't say the designs were flawed in general. They work exactly like they're supposed to. But I think they have some interesting weaknesses the UEF in particular could exploit to render them almost completely useless. There's a reason almost all of the frontal beams on the Chimeras/Bellerophons/Titans have to be guardianed in WiH missions, and that's because they're almost completely defenseless to assault fighter/bomber attack. One determined Uriel could probably disarm Serkr team's frontal beams with the Archer and Paveways without ever getting fired at by their turrets. Since the BP team isn't stupid, I imagine we're either going to be exploiting these weaknesses in WiH2, or be specifically prevented from doing so by more than guardian sexps.

But, my original want of a bomber-sized Hydra was exactly because of the competence of non-frontal point-defenses. While I think it's awesome and sensible that warships can defend themselves from incoming warheads, the arms race is constantly changing leaders. Again, if I were a UEF analyst, I would deem the Warhammer torpedo to be inadequate in its role of attempting to saturate point defenses so that bombers can engage from non-optimal vectors. Pulse turrets absolutely pick their teeth with warheads. Now that I think about it, most GTVA cruisers and corvettes in WiH get damaged by mass drivers or strikecraft; the torpedoes on the Karuna and Narayana are much better against destroyers that have much more surface area to cover. The time we see a frigate engaging a corvette at short range - she's using Hydras for a reason.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2011, 12:01:04 pm by TwentyPercentCooler »