Author Topic: And some European countries wonder why they have integration issues...  (Read 27906 times)

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Offline MP-Ryan

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And some European countries wonder why they have integration issues...
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/what-is-lost-when-governments-seize-valuables-from-refugees/article28399833/

This should be criminal.  I don't have the words to express how wrong and outrageous the action of seizing the belongings of refugees is.
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Offline zookeeper

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Re: And some European countries wonder why they have integration issues...
On the other hand, that's not very different from what natives have to do; can't get welfare benefits if you have enough cash or notable non-essential assets you can sell to support yourself for the time being. Of course the major difference in this case is that the people don't get to choose which way they prefer it.

How many refugees even have that sort of money or pricey valuables left at that point? It's arguably a rather jerk thing to do, but also presumably applies only to a tiny minority.

 
Re: And some European countries wonder why they have integration issues...
...
How many refugees even have that sort of money or pricey valuables left at that point? It's arguably a rather jerk thing to do, but also presumably applies only to a tiny minority.


That's why this idea is a missed shot. Potential "profit" would be very small and Danish officials will gain a lot of hate towards them. Bad deal and definitely not a solution .

 

Offline zookeeper

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Re: And some European countries wonder why they have integration issues...
That's why this idea is a missed shot. Potential "profit" would be very small and Danish officials will gain a lot of hate towards them. Bad deal and definitely not a solution .

Sure, no disagreement there.

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: And some European countries wonder why they have integration issues...
Quote
Refugee claimants will be allowed to keep their wedding rings and family portraits, but the portrait frames may be taken away.
what the bloody ****

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: And some European countries wonder why they have integration issues...
What kind of refugee has a portrait frame that's worth over 540$ anyway? Is there a "most idiotic immigration policy in the world" contest going on among the government heads? I don't know what they were expecting when they passed that law. Even if some of them had that kind of stuff by the time they left their homes, I don't think that they'd be able to hang on to it the entire way to Denmark. The article even quotes a statistic, some 140 people out of thousands were subject to a similar policy in Switzerland (granted, their quota is around 2000$, but most refugees hardly have anything but clothes on their backs anyway).

Ultimately, I see this as a pointless, unpopular and downright moronic law. The number of people actually affected by this will be minimal, but the number of people pissed off by this will be many times greater. Sure, it's a very clear "Sod off, we don't want you here!" message for the refugees (a sentiment I kind of agree with), but at this point, I can see a number of better ways of getting that across.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: And some European countries wonder why they have integration issues...
I hate to be That Guy, but holy **** this is literally the sort of thing that the Nazis did.
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Offline Dragon

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Re: And some European countries wonder why they have integration issues...
Well, it's becoming hard to talk about the current situation without referencing Hitler... Stalin had also done things of that sort, too, but he didn't target a particular ethnic group. I'm afraid that it might be necessary to suspend Godwin's Law for the time being, seeing as pre-WWII was last time when we had that sort of situation.

 
Re: And some European countries wonder why they have integration issues...
Atleast they aren't playing human smugglers to deport refugees from the country yet...

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: And some European countries wonder why they have integration issues...
It might be "something that the nazis did", but I'd like to point out a simple key difference. This time, people are running into Europe, not from Europe.

I think we should keep in mind that distinction.

 

Offline S-99

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Re: And some European countries wonder why they have integration issues...
Reminds me of normal old civil forfeiture that any police officer is capable of over here. You have cash of any value? Well, obviously it's only for none other than crime x. You should have used a bank. Oh, you were on your way to a bank...sure you were. Let me take this off your hands and you can go on your way.

Put shortly; in america civil forfeiture is a controversial legal process in which law enforcement officers take assets from persons suspected of involvement with crime or illegal activity without necessarily charging the owners with wrongdoing. It is highly corrupt and is only meant for robbing people of their goods. A lot of the time it is as simple as being pulled over that you get forfeited your belongings and sent on your way. You could be sitting on a bus between crossing over to another state in the union and have stuff be taken as well. Whatever the hell being of their interest, usually cash of any amount.
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: And some European countries wonder why they have integration issues...
I think some of you might be overreacting to this a bit with the whole nazi thing. the Nazis took the property of the people they murdered, this is taking excess wealth from people seeking aid because they are supposed to be unable to survive any other way. as mentioned there are similar regulations in a number of places for receiving government benefits.

The Nazis built highways... OMGWERNAZISCAUSE WEPAVEROAD!!!1!!!
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Offline Scotty

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Re: And some European countries wonder why they have integration issues...
this is taking excess wealth from people seeking aid because they are supposed to be unable to survive any other way.

If you seriously thought this was going to sound better you might have tried saying it aloud first, because it's still ****ing awful.

 
Re: And some European countries wonder why they have integration issues...
Well, Germany does that, too, though not many are aware of that. The reasoning behind it is that refugees should be treated the same as public welfare receivers. Though, I have to ask why the refugees then don't get the german citizenship straight away, enjoy freedom of
movement and permission to work...  :wtf:

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: And some European countries wonder why they have integration issues...
taking excess wealth from people seeking aid

"Excess wealth?"  Wealth should be significant, not the sum total of a few personal belongings and family heirlooms people managed to cart with them across a continent.

I *might* be willing to support means-tested welfare support eligibility for refugees if set at a reasonable level - if a family manages to flee with several months worth of living expenses in cash, fine, make them pay their own way first, but outright seizure of belongings beyond a particular financial threshold is ****ing evil.
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: And some European countries wonder why they have integration issues...
If you seriously thought this was going to sound better you might have tried saying it aloud first, because it's still ****ing awful.

I don't agree with it but yeah, taking the vast fortunes of people who are claiming to be poor in order for them to qualify for aid does sound a little different from murdering someone ans taking their stuff. and as others have mentioned in this thread there probably are not a lot of people with those vast fortunes.

seizure of belongings beyond a particular financial threshold is ****ing evil.

it's a dick move, I'm not a fan of it, but it's not kicking them out naked into the Siberian winter to watch them freeze to death.

BTW how does everyone feel about that law requiring pork on all menus I heard about, same country IIRC.
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Offline 666maslo666

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Re: And some European countries wonder why they have integration issues...
Well, Germany does that, too, though not many are aware of that. The reasoning behind it is that refugees should be treated the same as public welfare receivers.

This. Seizing excess wealth from refugees makes sense since the same policy applies to welfare recipients, too. Where is your outrage about that? Do you think that refugees, who arent even citizens, should just get free money and stuff, no questions asked, when even the natives dont get to enjoy that privilege? I dont think so.

There may be issues with correct enforcement of this policy, for example it is not actually legal to seize things of sentimental value, so if it happens it should be corrected. And maybe those exact wealth limits should be tweaked. This kind of criticism may be very much legitimate.

But in principle, the action of seizing some excess wealth from refugees is reasonable and those comparisons to nazis are just way over the top...
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: And some European countries wonder why they have integration issues...
No. Seizing "excess" wealth from anyone, let alone those fleeing for their lives/livelihoods is never acceptable except as punishment for criminal wrongdoing.

Deny benefits on the basis of a financial means test or assets, fine. Actively seizing personal property from people who are already victims? That's wrong, no matter how you try to parse it.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: And some European countries wonder why they have integration issues...
Ja, ja maslo. We shall pick the gold teeth from their mouths!

I mean, holy ****, are you serious? What they have on them is literally all they own now; all they have with which to support themselves, to eat off of, to house themselves with. They are going to need literally every bit of money they have on themselves to survive and start a new life unless they're literally wearing spun gold clothing. This is beyond any intangible values it might have as family heirloom or religious artifact.

Do you think that refugees, who arent even citizens, should just get free money and stuff, no questions asked, when even the natives dont get to enjoy that privilege?

I mean, this right here basically encapsulates how utterly insane you are. You're equating "getting free stuff" with taking away things they already own, that are already their property. The only possible way to read this is as stateist thuggery of the worse sort, that no one has any personal property, they are merely allowed to by the state. This idea is inimical with basically every political system that acknowledges the concept of a salary, so aside from Sub-Saharan Africans, people of the Amazon Basin, that one island off Sri Lanka, and absolutist dictatorships not many people are going to back you on that one.

Or that you can't form an argument to save your life.
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Offline Dragon

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Re: And some European countries wonder why they have integration issues...
Every time I heard stuff about "excess wealth" and "wealth redistribution", I recall Communists and their approach to the matter. That is, robbing many people (including my ancestors, we still haven't got any of it back) from their land, their factories, their tenement houses, and then giving it all to the "state", which usually proceeded to drive it all into the ground, evict the inhabitants and fire the workers. There's no such thing as "excess wealth", private property should be sacred, like in the US. If someone is trying to apply for social benefits while carrying wads of cash on his back, the proper course of action is to tell him to scram and come back after he is in a real need. Such "refugees" should try to make a living in a regular way, like every other person. If they run out of valuables while trying to do so, they may then apply for welfare.

IMO, the whole welfare system in most European countries needs to be redesigned to be less prone to exploits. It should only give you enough to sustain you while you're looking for a job. If you stop looking, you stop getting money (IIRC, Poland does just that). It shouldn't be enough to live too comfortably, or more than one could earn in the crappiest jobs available. Also, criteria for applying for support should be tightened. This apply to regular citizens, not only to refugees.