[Grizzly]

As per this article!

Essentially, the argument boils down to that the UK has been veto'ing any major change to how the EU works for years, as well as trying to opt out of any burdens whilst recieving the blessings. With the UK now gone, the EU can finally try to implement it's plans to become more democratic and can try to break the control the corperate lobby has.

[Luis Dias]

He calls the british delusional but he should look at the mirror instead.

[Grizzly]

He calls the british delusional but he should look at the mirror instead.

So smart, such insight, much wow. Have you seen Nigel Farage's speech or Johnson's speeches thus far? I really don't see how anyone could walk away with any impression other then 'delusional'.

[The E]

The thrust of the Article is that the EU could enact more sweeping reforms when the UK isn't around to block things anymore. But that's just as delusional a stance as Brexit's "The EU is constantly acting against our best interests" thing was; The UK delegation to the EU (both as part of the EP and the Commission) isn't significantly more obstructionist than any other (in fact, analysis shows that the UK was more often than not on the winning side of policy debates; in recent years, even with all the EU skepticism Cameron has been promoting, Germany was actually on the losing side of things more often than the UK).

A second argument is made in the article here:

Had remain won the referendum, the EU would have become hostage to British sabotage. Future British prime ministers would veto any fundamental change involving the transfer of sovereignty, arguing, correctly, that their people had voted only for the current set-up of the EU. Britain would continue to demand ever more opt-outs and concessions – playing to the fantasy that membership is a British favour to the rest of Europe. The British press and Europhobe politicians would go on portraying the EU in the most lurid, mendacious and derisory terms, making us look terrible in the eyes of Americans and English-speaking Asians, Africans and Russians.

Except that's not how it works. It assumes a continuation of the status quo, something that hopefully does not happen. It also assumes that the rest of the EU would allow Britain to be that obstructionist; as we've seen in the past few days, there is little hesitation among the rest of the EU governments to play hardball against the UK.

[Luis Dias]

Thank you for saying what my lazyness obstructed me into saying The_E. That's basically my point as well. As with all these silly "paradise is just ahead of us" delusional thesis, brexiteers are as faulty as these "we're better without you thanks" ****ty articles, which are very rethorical and of little actual justified substance.

And no, just because I disagree with X, doesn't mean I'm therefore with "Anti-X", which has been your constant misrepresentation Joshua (if you're not for this ideology, you must be anti-demographic X, if you're not for this remainer, you must be a brexiter, etc.). Pisses me off to no end.

[Phantom Hoover]

The idea that the EU is better off now that its second-largest economy is the first to leave it is just as delusional as the idea that Britain is better off for having severed and told to **** off most of its biggest trade partners at once.

[Luis Dias]

The only positive I could carve out of this would be if this crisis began an introspective analysis within eurocrats into making Europe way more demos - oriented, and a lot more beneficial to actual europeans, solving actual problems like Greece, etc.

But that's not gonna happen. If the people there didn't do it so far, sure as hell they can't wrap their heads into the need to do this now. Schauble has already goofed against Portugal yesterday, implying we would need a new bailout. As if that statement that was later retracted wouldn't be, at some level, a self-fulfilling prophecy (by talking about it, you're bringing it into reality). This after a successful good budget execution by our government. And after Brexit. These are the kind of morons who are leading europe into an abyss.

[The E]

Have you read this resolution here?

The European Parliament,

–  having regard to Rule 123(2) of its Rules of Procedure,

1.  Takes note of the wish of the citizens of the United Kingdom to leave the EU; points out that the will expressed by the people must be entirely and fully respected, starting with the activation of Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union (TEU) as soon as possible;

2.  Stresses that this is a critical moment for the EU: the interests and expectations of the Union’s citizens must be brought back to the centre of the debate; the European project must be relaunched now;

3.  Stresses that the will of the majority of the citizens of the United Kingdom should be respected via a swift and coherent implementation of the withdrawal procedure;

4.  Points out that negotiations under Article 50 TEU concerning the UK’s withdrawal from the EU must begin as soon as formal notification has been communicated;

5.  Warns that in order to prevent damaging uncertainty for everyone and to protect the Union’s integrity, the notification stipulated in Article 50 TEU must take place as soon as possible; expects the UK Prime Minister to notify the outcome of the referendum to the European Council of 28-29 June 2016; this notification will launch the withdrawal procedure;

6.  Recalls that the settlement agreed by the heads of state or government in February 2016 stipulated that it would only enter into force if the UK decided to stay in the EU; it is therefore null and void;

7.  Recalls that any new relationship between the UK and the EU may not be agreed before the conclusion of the withdrawal agreement;

8.  Recalls that the consent of the European Parliament is required under the Treaties, and that it must be fully involved at all stages of the various procedures concerning the withdrawal agreement and any future relationship;

9.  Invites the Council to appoint the Commission as negotiator on Article 50 TEU;

10.  Stresses that the current challenges require reflection on the future of the EU: there is a need to reform the Union and make it better and more democratic; notes that while some Member States may choose to integrate more slowly or to a lesser extent, the core of the EU must be reinforced and à la carte solutions should be avoided; considers that the need to promote our common values, provide stability, social justice, sustainability, growth and jobs, overcome persistent economic and social uncertainty, protect citizens and address the challenge of migration requires developing and democratising, in particular, the Economic and Monetary Union and the area of freedom, security and justice, as well as strengthening the common foreign and security policy; considers therefore that the reforms must result in a Union which delivers what citizens expect;

11.  Calls for a roadmap for a better Union based on exploiting the Lisbon Treaty to the full, to be completed by a revision of the Treaties;

12.  Will enact changes in its internal organisation to reflect the will of a majority of the citizens of the United Kingdom to withdraw from the European Union;

13.  Takes note of the UK Commissioner’s resignation and the relocation of his portfolio;

14.  Calls on the Council to change the order of its Presidencies to prevent the process of withdrawal from jeopardising the management of the day-to-day business of the Union;

15.  Instructs its President to forward this resolution to the European Council, the Council, the Commission, the European Central Bank, the national parliaments and the Government of the UK.

Seems to me that at least some of the EUP delegates recognize the need for change.

[Grizzly]

Vytenis Andriukaitis had some thoughts on that whole thing. I found it very interesting and actually a bit uplifting to read. That's the general feel I am getting here: That Britain's exit is a catalyst for something a bit more positive. Atleast for the countries still within the EU sans Ireland.

(Whilst the british politicians continue to fill me with apathy everytime I hear news coming from that region 0_o)

[The E]

Except the UK hasn't exited yet. With Boris Johnson abandoning his bid for Prime Minister, it's unclear right now who will take over and what his or her stance on invoking Article 50 will be. There's noone in the Brexit camp (except maybe Farage) who seems willing to actually step up and take responsibility for guiding the UK through this process (because, it has to be said, they didn't bother to plan for that eventuality).

We've already seen the markets stabilize because everyone has realized that nothing is actually going to be done until Cameron's exit from office (Which I think is still a few weeks away). But I would be hesitant to call that a recovery; it's very definitely a metastable situation at best.

[Luis Dias]

All I see in that resolution is just pure Eurocrat trash again. In what appears as something "positive" (hey, weren't they supposed to be anti-democratic? but here they are so appeasing the UK voters! They are actually more democratic than Boris or David!!), it's actually just typical eurotrash: they are merely being dicks to the UK by pressuring them to start negotiations as fast as possible for they have *seen* that the UK Leavers are not ready for these things altogether. Moreover, UK Tory politicians have all agreed with Cameron that an intra election within the Tory party should get them a new prime minister before any negotiations should unfold. This all makes sense: if Cameron is to resign, a new PM should be in the reigns of a new deal with Europe. The new PM should never inherit negotiations at the middle of them, but rather should initiate them.

However, ever since Cameron stated he was to resign, Europe started making this passive aggressive maneuver pretending they are oh so democratic now, but instead, as I said, being merely dicks.

No, ****heads, the UK will take its time and will enact article 50 when they want and how they want, not how *you* want it.

BTW, this is entirely my analysis alone, I haven't seen anyone commenting on this in the same veins that I have, although there's probably a lot who think likewise.

[Grizzly]

Meh, I kinda get the sense that the EP is reacting more to the brits being dicks within and without the EP (have you seen or heard Farage's rant in there?) then themselves being dicks. "You've made your bed, now lie in it" seems to be the response, which I do not consider 'being a dick'.

Then again, with Boris Johnson withdrawing from the conservative party it seems like the leavers don't actually want to lie in that bed (with the possible exception of Farage). One of the more interesting analysises I saw thus far is that the leavers never actually counted on winning the referendum but rather wanted to use the anger of disgruntled leave voters for their own political advantage. If that is the case, this has backfired spectacurarely. Honestly, I can't blame the various EP members to react badly to that. Because that's the definition of a dick move.

[Luis Dias]

What the EU is doing is dragging themselves down to Farage's level. Here's the difference between Farage and the Eurocrats: Farage is an asshole when he opens his mouth, the eurocrats are assholes when they do things. I'd say the latter is way more harmful than the former, but both are assholeish. The EU has no say about this issue and yet all pretend they do. They don't. Shut your pieholes, Juncker et co. Merkel has been a lot better in this, albeit she would also do 100 times better if she just stayed quiet and merely issued what the german position is regarding a brexit and the timing.

[karajorma]

The uncertainty over Brexit isn't doing European stock markets any good. And this is occurring over a matter which they had no power over. Boris Johnson has stated he wants to drag things out until 2020! Surely you can at least understand their desire to get the UK out as fast as possible so that they can return to some semblance of normality?

Yeah I agree that the Conservatives need to pick a new leader before negotiations start, but once they have a new leader I can't blame the rest of Europe for wanting them to start immediately.

[Luis Dias]

After Cameron has stated his decision and given the reasonability of having a new PM conduct the negotiations it's absolutely below any semblance of decency for the EU to pretend cluelessness and just demand they just push the button already. We all know, or *should* know, the political situation right now in the UK and understand the reasonableness of Cameron's decision. I think the EU has reason to demand relative rush for this process, but they are speaking in terms of days or weeks. That's absolutely untenable and reminds me of the Greece days of doom back a year ago, when they smothered the Greek politicians every single day with this kind of "rushed" limbo. So, I guess it's par for the course for these assholes.

I also think that Boris is an idiot who has probably "buyer's remorse" as I've seen defined elsewhere in the internets. 2020? I totally agree that that's just insane gibberish. He should also go **** himself. I hope the Tory party chooses someone with the inclination to start negotiations as soon as possible, like Theresa May. Gove has already stabbed Boris in the back, so those two should also go to hell.

[Phantom Hoover]

luis you would maybe do better in these threads if you didn't interpret everything as a personal slight

[Luis Dias]

I live in Europe so I'm so sorry (not) if I take this **** personally. I do for it's impacting me directly. And I could tell you the innumerous ways how, but since this thread is not about me, I won't, okthnksbye.

[karajorma]

After Cameron has stated his decision and given the reasonability of having a new PM conduct the negotiations it's absolutely below any semblance of decency for the EU to pretend cluelessness and just demand they just push the button already. We all know, or *should* know, the political situation right now in the UK and understand the reasonableness of Cameron's decision. I think the EU has reason to demand relative rush for this process, but they are speaking in terms of days or weeks. That's absolutely untenable and reminds me of the Greece days of doom back a year ago, when they smothered the Greek politicians every single day with this kind of "rushed" limbo. So, I guess it's par for the course for these assholes.

When haggling you always start out with something completely unreasonable and meet in the middle. If the Europeans actually tried to sound reasonable it probably would end up being 2020 because whoever ends up in charge of the party probably has realised that the longer they wait the better.

[Luis Dias]

Given how Greece's issues are still unresolved in the most irresponsible manner, I contest your idea that their procedure is designed to "meet in the middle". Not so. They start being ridiculous with the sole intent to being ridiculous. All in all, all european claptrap is about the French and German clashing with each other in brinksmanship's political shenanigans. Juncker, for all his sins, is merely a puppet. A ****ing moronic one, but still, just a puppet.

[NGTM-1R]

Given how Greece's issues are still unresolved in the most irresponsible manner, I contest your idea that their procedure is designed to "meet in the middle".

You say this as though Greece has had nothing to contribute to its own problems, which is...at the very least incorrect. Trying to meet them in the middle failed over their own extremism (until their position was too untenable to do anything but beg on their knees and the fact they get screwed in that situation should not surprise anyone), much like trying to meet the UK in the middle would probably fail if Nigel Farange was PM.