[Dragon]

No, this is why I stayed out of this particular argument and instead focused on telling various kinds of Muslims apart. It's a pointless argument anyway, because no matter what sort of Muslims lived in France before, they had little in common with Syrians and Libyans. Syria was under French control only briefly, during the interwar period. Their most notable colonies were in northwest Africa, which is not currently a major source of problems.

You got him to admit it until the next post where he'd default to it again.

Tanks for making sure of that, too. I would've called him out on that if he did that here. Now, once the ban expires, I'll have to dig this thread up and quote him (and risk looking absurd if you banned him for, say, a month). If you simply backed me up instead of throwing him out, he'd either have a hard time finding arguments that this wasn't pure racism, or would have to argue racism is good, which would be simply unwinnable for him.

[karajorma]

Or you could send him a PM if it's so important to you.

My job as admin is not to back you up so you can win arguments. It's to ensure that this place remains civil. People posting blatantly racist comments is as far as you can get from that.

[Dragon]

It's not a matter of "winning an argument", this is just a mean to an end. This end is, ultimately, to make him think and, maybe, reconsider his opinion as illogical. Besides, aside from this racism thing, he was nicer than, say, Phantom Hoover usually is (and I distinctly remember you not lifting a finger against him, especially when he's insulting me for those of my opinions you don't agree with, either). My view is that you would have done more good by convincing him that he's wrong than you did by shutting him up.

If you're going to censor opinions that deviate from the acceptable standard, all that'll be left will be preaching to the choir, agreeing on things and discussing minutae, which are pointless activities.

[AdmiralRalwood]

aside from this racism thing, he was nicer than, say, Phantom Hoover usually is

Wow.

Wow.

You know, if you dislike the community guidelines actually being enforced that much, you're free to leave. If you honestly believe that banning someone for unacceptable behavior is a bad thing, I can guarantee that I won't miss your contributions.

[Bobboau]

You know nothing helps the alt-right like taking your community, drawing a line down the middle, banning everyone on the right side of the line and tell them that they are racists and there are places on the internet for them, and then repeating the process ad infinitum. This has been a mode of behavior in many online communities and it's been polarizing everyone. When you ban someone, they go somewhere. As much as I ***** about SJWs the alt-right is worse, and it's gaining strength and it is a direct consequence of SJW activities online and IRL.

but this is off topic.

[karajorma]

Besides, aside from this racism thing, he was nicer than, say, Phantom Hoover usually is (and I distinctly remember you not lifting a finger against him, especially when he's insulting me for those of my opinions you don't agree with, either).

See, this is where you're wrong. Only yesterday I told him to calm down when he insulted Goober (and I felt Goober was as wrong as anyone could possibly be) and I pointed out to the other moderators that I couldn't see any reason why we're letting PH get away with as much as he does.

[Turambar]

You know nothing helps the alt-right like taking your community, drawing a line down the middle, banning everyone on the right side of the line and tell them that they are racists and there are places on the internet for them, and then repeating the process ad infinitum. This has been a mode of behavior in many online communities and it's been polarizing everyone. When you ban someone, they go somewhere. As much as I ***** about SJWs the alt-right is worse, and it's gaining strength and it is a direct consequence of SJW activities online and IRL.

but this is off topic.

So what do we do about racism now that it hurts the racists' feelings to point out racism?

[Grizzly]

You know nothing helps the alt-right like taking your community, drawing a line down the middle, banning everyone on the right side of the line and tell them that they are racists and there are places on the internet for them, and then repeating the process ad infinitum. This has been a mode of behavior in many online communities and it's been polarizing everyone. When you ban someone, they go somewhere. As much as I ***** about SJWs the alt-right is worse, and it's gaining strength and it is a direct consequence of SJW activities online and IRL.

Dunno dude, many online communities have always had rules against being a dick towards other people, and if the alt-right movement is one thing, it's about being a dick towards other human beings because they are different from you. You'd really think this would fly in 2000?

Because, what it boils down to is that the alt-right is growing becuase people aren't willing to put up with their bull****. The alternative is putting up with their bull**** - either way, the alt-right wins, but this way others lose the least.

[Bobboau]

'putting up with their bull ****' keeps them talking with you. banning them allows them to go make even more concentrated versions of themselves. The fact the current state is the result of 20 years of this process going on doesn't affect it's truth value. This is a process that happens on both sides, someone gets banned from here because they said they don't like muslims, they might go somewhere more right wing and get banned because they don't want to gas the jews, eventually they have to settle on one side or the other and then they get pushed to the extreme. Unless they can find somewhere that doesn't try to socially engineer them. Saying "you are going to make that gay wedding cake it's 2015 deal with it" causes them to deal with it by electing Trump. You can't force it, you can't pull them kicking and screaming into the future all you can do is make them pull you even harder into the past, and all that will happen is the fabric you are both pulling against gets ripped to shreds.

[Bobboau]

I mean, look at Milo Yanopolis, I mean, just... look at him literally. Is that the face of conservatism? he found himself more opposed to what the left has become than in agreement with it, and so he has allied himself with people who honestly largely want to hang him for being a degenerate coal burner. Not because they agree with each other, but because they are collectively opposed to you. It's a bizarre coalition of Nazis, Anarchists, Christians, Pagans, Atheists, Libertarians, Republicans, and other random ideologies. how the **** did this happen? How the **** do we have people on the left trying to put INTO place segregation and laws that reverse presumption of innocence? That being color blind is racist? How the **** did we end up with the Democrats railroading a bland career politician backed by big money (including the GOD DAMNED Koch brothers!?!) with no principals and probably singlehandedly cause two wars and a massive terrorist organization, who has for most of her career talked about how "marriage is as a marriage has always been, between a man and a woman" and the Republicans have nominated.... that thing... "kill their families", "deportation force", "we need to close the internet", an isolationist foreign policy in favor of tariffs opposed to free trade and international military alliances (little things like NATO) who think transgender people should use whatever bathroom they feel like.

How the **** did this HAPPEN?
I am honestly worried about civil war.

[Turambar]

Yeah, things aren't that bad.  Milo is just a moron.


People can and will be forced, kicking and screaming, to join the future.  They won't like it, but less of their kids will care each generation.

[Bobboau]

He has a lot of people listening and many of those people vote and engage in activism, dismissing them as morons is part of what has gotten us to where we are.

[Grizzly]

Bobbeau, what you're describing is not the result of "SJW" but simply because both US parties have pushed to the right so hard that there's no more room for the republican party to breathe. The Democratic party, if it would run in the Netherlands, would be considered *very* right wing, just like Bernie Sanders is considered a communist for bassically arguing for a return to the New Deal.

Your kicking and screaming analogy does not really hold up. To argue this, I present you XKCD:

People often say that same-sex marriage now is like interracial marriage in the 60s. But in terms of public opinion, same-sex marriage now is like interracial marriage in the 90s, when it had already been legal nationwide for 30 years.

[Turambar]

He has a lot of people listening and many of those people vote and engage in activism, dismissing them as morons is part of what has gotten us to where we are.

Well if they don't like it they should find some less ignorant opinions to hold.

[Bobboau]

OK, that sounds like a plan and I'm sure it will work.

...I wonder if there is still a manufacturer of zyklon b I can invest my money in.

[Turambar]

OK, that sounds like a plan and I'm sure it will work.

...I wonder if there is still a manufacturer of zyklon b I can invest my money in.

I'm totally aware of how awful my statement sounds, but how ****ing hard is it to get everyone on the 'everyone has the same rights' page?

[Bobboau]

apparently pretty hard.

[NGTM-1R]

'putting up with their bull ****' keeps them talking with you. banning them allows them to go make even more concentrated versions of themselves.

You've yet to explain why they don't do that regardless (they do) and why it's a bad thing to allow extremists to create ever more extreme versions of their views, slowly alienating everyone and everything around them.

That last bit is key because it illustrates the delusion you're operating under, that somehow extremism increases its mass appeal the more it extreme it becomes. Increasing extremism is a self-perpetuating failure mode. The more extreme you become the less appealing your message and the more difficulty you have interacting with reality to advance it. This causes you to become more extreme, continuing the cycle. (c.f. the inability of the Republican-controlled House to pass legislation, even Republican legislation)

If Milo wants to have a civil war, it'll be a short one. It's fun to talk the talk but few of his followers are up for his agenda in practice, much like the white supremacists talk a good game on racial holy war but very, very few of them ever try to put it into practice. So all right then. Let's do it. It'll be quick. It'll provide a useful reminder who the tyrants in patriots and tyrants actually are.

[Bobboau]

because that's not what's happening, the extremists control the pit that you dump everyone right of center into when you ban them. The opposite of what you describe is happening, you are purging everyone who is too much of an "extremist" and so they end up siding with the actual extremists because it's the only other option and they are welcoming.

I have not followed Milo enough to know what he wants, I just see him pop up every now and then, typically doing something flamboyant and ridiculous or sitting with a **** eating grin while someone he doesn't like makes them selves look like the bad guy in front of him. I actually can't think of anything from him in like 6 months now that I think about it.
MY concerns about a civil war are due to the ever more extreme polarization of the population. Trump might win. It might be you who are on the side of rebels who start it. I actually think that is the more likely scenario, if Trump wins civil war is much more likely. If he and a republican led congress started mass deportations of Mexicans and Muslims and then started defunding universities they viewed as being too Leftist, do you honestly not see it as a possibility?

[Grizzly]

because that's not what's happening, the extremists control the pit that you dump everyone right of center into when you ban them.

... Err, I'd struggle to view Maslo as someone who is simply "right of center".

edit: removed bits about civil war as they made no sense in context.