Author Topic: UNESCO just declared by vote: no Jewish connection to Temple Mount  (Read 7219 times)

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Offline Sandwich

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UNESCO just declared by vote: no Jewish connection to Temple Mount
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Re: UNESCO just declared by vote: no Jewish connection to Temple Mount
I'm not entirely sure what the problem is. The UN, an organization that was founded on the notion of that people should leave each other the **** alone, tends to care more about people's lives being made miserable then they do about claims based upon a 6000 year old text.

 

Offline zookeeper

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Re: UNESCO just declared by vote: no Jewish connection to Temple Mount
This? Google brought up nothing useful.

 

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Re: UNESCO just declared by vote: no Jewish connection to Temple Mount
I'm not entirely sure what the problem is. The UN, an organization that was founded on the notion of that people should leave each other the **** alone, tends to care more about people's lives being made miserable then they do about claims based upon a 6000 year old text.



...So we can get over the Native American nuisance claims as having any relevance, right?

 

Offline Sandwich

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Re: UNESCO just declared by vote: no Jewish connection to Temple Mount
I'm not entirely sure what the problem is. The UN, an organization that was founded on the notion of that people should leave each other the **** alone, tends to care more about people's lives being made miserable then they do about claims based upon a 6000 year old text.

There is exhaustive archeological evidence that Jews have lived in Israel going back thousands of years. Ignoring or denying historical facts does not get you brownie points.
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"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 
Re: UNESCO just declared by vote: no Jewish connection to Temple Mount
I'm not entirely sure what the problem is. The UN, an organization that was founded on the notion of that people should leave each other the **** alone, tends to care more about people's lives being made miserable then they do about claims based upon a 6000 year old text.

There is exhaustive archeological evidence that Jews have lived in Israel going back thousands of years. Ignoring or denying historical facts does not get you brownie points.


You miss the point: The Unesco does not care all that much about who lived where thousands of years ago, beyond preserving that knowledge. The Unesco is about preserving archeological sites today. Ancestral claims are not an excuse for... well, anything. If you actually look at the UNESCO piece the uproar is about, you'd read about how it considers Jerusalem the site of the three monotheïstic religions etc. It just refues to refer to the place as exclusively jewish, as the UN refers to the sites mentioned as being part of the nation of Jordan. This refers to an issue from the eighties.

...So we can get over the Native American nuisance claims as having any relevance, right?

Err, no? I'm quite sure that the native american's claim to the right of being treated as human beings supercedes manifest destiny.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2016, 04:45:02 pm by -Joshua- »

 

Offline 0rph3u5

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Re: UNESCO just declared by vote: no Jewish connection to Temple Mount
Some facts:

1) The UNSECO executive board voted on the issue which is not a scientific institution per se, as such they are not bound by the historical or acheological evidence in their findings and the representatives on that board are also meant to represent the nations that appointed them.

2) The UNESCO exectutive board, appointed for the term of 2016-19, isn't exactly made up to make fair decisions on the historic claims concering heritage sites in the state of Israel; Iran on that board. (Source)

3) The UNESCO executive board votes by simple minority with no quota for either yay or nay to be filled for a motion to carry. (So all that countries that abstained were a rather phyrric victory)

So yeah, the current make-up of the UNESCO executive board made it possible for states, who have higher interest in pointing out the problems that exist currently around the Temple Mount and laying blame for them solely at the feet of Isreali governement in attempt to damage said government and/or to delegitimze the state it represents, to pass a resolution that does just that.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2016, 05:00:59 pm by 0rph3u5 »
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Re: UNESCO just declared by vote: no Jewish connection to Temple Mount
The Unesco ruling in question does not actually make any historic claims. It simply notes that parts of eastern jerusalem are being damaged and states as Israel, as the occupying force, is still responsible for ensuring that the Unesco heritage sites stay intact. It refers to these areas in their Jordan names as, according to International Law, Jordan still owns the region.
The UN is simply following it's rulebook.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: UNESCO just declared by vote: no Jewish connection to Temple Mount
Quote
The controversial resolution starts by affirming the “importance of the Old City of Jerusalem and its Walls for the three monotheistic religions,”

So Sandwich, even the sources you have provided prove that your original starting claim and the title of this entire thread is bull****. Can you actually make a coherent argument about why Jewish people are upset? Cause if you're deliberately misrepresenting the argument from the first post (and even your sources are deliberately misrepresenting the argument), I see no reason for anyone to pay any attention to this.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2016, 11:03:51 pm by karajorma »
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Offline Black Wolf

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Re: UNESCO just declared by vote: no Jewish connection to Temple Mount
Experience with these threads has told me to assume that whenever Sandwich posts something about Israel, it's almost always slanted to the point of being ridiculous/flat out wrong. :doubt: Even reading the article seems not worth my time - just assume the opposite.
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Offline Sandwich

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Re: UNESCO just declared by vote: no Jewish connection to Temple Mount
Oh please... :rolleyes:

You miss the point: The Unesco does not care all that much about who lived where thousands of years ago, beyond preserving that knowledge. The Unesco is about preserving archeological sites today. Ancestral claims are not an excuse for... well, anything. If you actually look at the UNESCO piece the uproar is about, you'd read about how it considers Jerusalem the site of the three monotheïstic religions etc. It just refues to refer to the place as exclusively jewish, as the UN refers to the sites mentioned as being part of the nation of Jordan. This refers to an issue from the eighties.

From the Wikipedia page on UNESCO (emphasis mine):

Quote
UNESCO pursues its objectives through five major programs: education, natural sciences, social/human sciences, culture and communication/information. Projects sponsored by UNESCO include literacy, technical, and teacher-training programmes, international science programmes, the promotion of independent media and freedom of the press, regional and cultural history projects, the promotion of cultural diversity, translations of world literature, international cooperation agreements to secure the world cultural and natural heritage (World Heritage Sites) and to preserve human rights, and attempts to bridge the worldwide digital divide. It is also a member of the United Nations Development Group.

UNESCO is very much involved in cultural history, and hey, guess what! That has to deal with "who lived where thousands of years ago", which—if discarded—renders the entire point of archaeological sites moot. Please quit spouting nonsense.

#Butwaittheresmore!

It refers to these areas in their Jordan names...

Later on, in the Controversies section:

Quote
In October 2010, UNESCO's Executive Board voted to declare the sites as "al-Haram al-Ibrahimi/Tomb of the Patriarchs" and "Bilal bin Rabah Mosque/Rachel's Tomb" and stated that they were "an integral part of the occupied Palestinian Territories" and any unilateral Israeli action was a violation of international law.

Different date, different sites, different issue—but look at the names. Both are referred to in two ways - by their Arabic-in-English (i.e. Arabic transliterated into English letters) Islamic names as well as their English Jewish names (although the Hebrew-in-English Jewish names, such as "Me'arat HaMachpelah" and "Kever Rachel", respectively, are omitted for some reason, but whatever). So precedent exists for UNESCO acknowledging both the Jewish and Islamic historical significance of such locations (rendered language notwithstanding).

...according to International Law, Jordan still owns the region.

This is an aside, but I'd be very much interested in seeing how International Law gets translated to mean that Jordan has a legitimate claim to the region. After all, they captured and occupied that region in an offensive war they initiated to eradicate the newly-formed State of Israel in 1948.

But getting back to the issue of the thread, let's say that's why the names are as they are—because Jordan owns said region. What region are we referring to? What you call the "West Bank", or what was known for thousands of years as Judea and Samaria? Guess what—both "al-Haram al-Ibrahimi/Tomb of the Patriarchs" and "Bilal bin Rabah Mosque/Rachel's Tomb" are located in that same region, just like the Temple Mount/whatever-it's-called-in-Arabic. So why does UNESCO refer to the Temple Mount exclusively by its Islamic name, and exclude the Jewish name?

Finally, let's look a bit further on in Wikipedia, at the paragraph specifically referring to the issue of this thread (again, emphasis mine):

Quote
On 13 October 2016, UNESCO passed a resolution condemning Israel for purported "illegal aggression" against the Palestinian people, while subsequently denying that the Temple Mount had any connection to Judaism, referring to the holy site exclusively by its Islamic names. After receiving "vilification" from numerous Israeli politicians and diplomats, including Benjamin Netanyahu and Ayelet Shaked, Israel froze all ties with the organization. Netanyahu was quoted as saying, “To say that Israel has no link to the Temple Mount is like saying that China has no link to the Great Wall or that Egypt has no connection to the Pyramids”. On 14 October 2016, Ban ki-Moon and the Director-General of UNESCO highly criticized the draft-declaration, declaring that Judaism, Islam and Christianity have clear historical connections to Jerusalem and any attempt to deny the links between Judaism, the Temple Mount and the Western Wall were an affront to history and made the struggle for peace a more difficult one.

So please, quit your attempts at pretending this issue was illegitimate affronting history and making the struggle for peace a more difficult one. :rolleyes:

Quote
The controversial resolution starts by affirming the “importance of the Old City of Jerusalem and its Walls for the three monotheistic religions,”

So Sandwich, even the sources you have provided prove that your original starting claim and the title of this entire thread is bull****. Can you actually make a coherent argument about why Jewish people are upset? Cause if you're deliberately misrepresenting the argument from the first post (and even your sources are deliberately misrepresenting the argument), I see no reason for anyone to pay any attention to this.

Let's look at the context for that line:

Quote
The controversial resolution starts by affirming the “importance of the Old City of Jerusalem and its Walls for the three monotheistic religions,” but then goes on to accuse Israel — which it consistently calls “the occupying power” — of a long list of wrongdoings.

The text “firmly deplores the continuous storming” of the Al-Aqṣa Mosque/Al-Ḥaram AlSharif — Muslim names for the Temple Mount compound and the mosque located there — “by Israeli right-wing extremists and uniformed forces.”

It also decries Israeli works in the Western Wall Plaza, which it terms the al-Burak plaza after the Muslim name for the site.

The Western Wall, the outer retaining wall of the Second Jewish Temple, is the holiest site where Jews today can pray, and sits at the bottom of the Temple Mount, Judaism’s holiest spot.

The Al-Aqsa Mosque, regarded by Muslims as the third-holiest site in Islam, sits atop the Mount, known to Muslims as the Haram al-Sharif, along with the Dome of the Rock.

Or, as stated far more succinctly in even the left-wing, liberal Ha'aretz article:

Quote
The resolution asserted that Jerusalem is holy to the three monotheistic religions: Judaism, Islam and Christianity. However, it includes a special section dealing with the Temple Mount, which says the site is sacred only to Muslims and fails to mention that it is sacred to the Jews as well. In fact, it mentions neither the Hebrew term for the site – Har HaBayit – nor its English equivalent, the Temple Mount. The site is referred to only by its Muslim names – Al-Aqsa Mosque and Haram al-Sharif.

Do I need to spell the issue out for you any further?

Experience with these threads has told me to assume that whenever Sandwich posts something about Israel, it's almost always slanted to the point of being ridiculous/flat out wrong. :doubt: Even reading the article seems not worth my time - just assume the opposite.

Thanks - your thoughts and opinions mean SO much to me (hint: continue assuming the opposite).
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"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline zookeeper

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Re: UNESCO just declared by vote: no Jewish connection to Temple Mount
Quote
The resolution asserted that Jerusalem is holy to the three monotheistic religions: Judaism, Islam and Christianity. However, it includes a special section dealing with the Temple Mount, which says the site is sacred only to Muslims and fails to mention that it is sacred to the Jews as well.

So can we get a link to the resolution and/or that specific quote from it? Because in the one I linked, there seems to be no such thing.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: UNESCO just declared by vote: no Jewish connection to Temple Mount
So this is about them not using the Hebrew names for a place? Sounds like one of the pettiest complaints I've seen yet. Does Israel not have any real anti-Semitism to deal with that they have to bother with this nonsense? 
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Offline T-Man

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Re: UNESCO just declared by vote: no Jewish connection to Temple Mount
I know very little about the situation (and don't really want to get into it) but If I may I would say this to everyone involved (from a neutral standpoint); The UNESCO vote was arguably the latest political proxy move in a very long-running feud. It is a tainted move by a tainted party but (as seems to be the norm nowadays), the other side in the argument is just as tainted as the side making said proxy move. There is no good side to argue for, not anymore.

The 'truth' or 'facts' of any of these religious sites (which I am aware are sacred in both Judaism and Islam, and apparently Christianity too I heard recently) was arguably lost hundreds of year ago in a quagmire of bias, bad blood and revisionism between two partisan factions. I don't wish to get into it because I honestly think there's no point anymore; try to actually look into the problem and establish fairness you'll just get burned by both sides, or spun, or threatened, or slandered, or worse.

I appreciate this is quite a sore subject (especially to community members who are put directly at risk by the feud this is part of; It hurts a lot), but I fail to see how letting it rip apart HLP achieves anything. It's not my right to say lock the thread but I beg people try to avoid getting aggressive at others on here. Otherwise your only helping it continue, and letting it drag in more people.

Media like this vote or any article is written by someone, somewhere, sometime and for some reason; something worth thinking of regardless of the opinion one holds on one piece or another.
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Offline 0rph3u5

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Re: UNESCO just declared by vote: no Jewish connection to Temple Mount
Quote
The resolution asserted that Jerusalem is holy to the three monotheistic religions: Judaism, Islam and Christianity. However, it includes a special section dealing with the Temple Mount, which says the site is sacred only to Muslims and fails to mention that it is sacred to the Jews as well.

So can we get a link to the resolution and/or that specific quote from it? Because in the one I linked, there seems to be no such thing.

The point of contentions, as it appears to me (raised Lutheranian-Christian, now atheist), the terminlogy imployed when it comes to construction projects near the Temple Mount, like in I.B.2 section 16, and the deliberate omissions in regards to their significance.

The Kedem Center referenced in that section is meant to be a visitor's centre displaying the archeological findings at the Western Wall Excavations, planned and run by the Israel Antiquities Authority.

Section 18 also mentions the construction of a Jewish Prayer Plattfrom at the street adress of Western Wall Plaza, which is basically the street adress of the Western Wall aka the Wailing Wall without context. Again I cannot claim to judge whetever or not the construction mentioned is violation of any internation agreement, but the omission of the local context of the site is there (as much as an omission can be there)

Someone with more intimate knowledge of geography and cityscape of Jerusalem might dig up more - I just used Google Maps to get an impression... Also someone with more time than me could run this past older statements of the same states against the Western Wall Excavation - again, I am not an expert on the Middle East but I am pretty sure that I've read/heard the Western Wall Excavations being liked to demolition work before in the context of anti-Israeli statements...
« Last Edit: October 20, 2016, 08:33:44 am by 0rph3u5 »
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Re: UNESCO just declared by vote: no Jewish connection to Temple Mount
UNESCO is very much involved in cultural history, and hey, guess what! That has to deal with "who lived where thousands of years ago", which—if discarded—renders the entire point of archaeological sites moot.
You're conflating two different issues. Like I said, the Unesco cares about archeological sites only up to the opint to care about historical knowledge. It does not, and *should not*, care about claims made by Israel or any other nation based on those fondings, as people who lived thousands of years ago are now long dead and should not be used as an justification for any people claiming it's legacy.

Quote
This is an aside, but I'd be very much interested in seeing how International Law gets translated to mean that Jordan has a legitimate claim to the region. After all, they captured and occupied that region in an offensive war they initiated to eradicate the newly-formed State of Israel in 1948.

The state of Israel was formed during a civil war that raged in the British Mandate of Palestine. Before the war, all the territory was British, and in effect the entire area was captured and occupied by another power.  Jordan's legitimacy to the territory is recognized in the same way that Israel's legitimacy to it's own territory has been: Via the 1949 armestice agreements and accompanying Tripartite decleration. This is why many peace talks talk about returning to the pre-1967 borders, as they are the the borders which were at the time agreed upon by all parties. It should be noted that this war predates the 4th geneva conventions (which also happened in 1949) which has those specific outlines regarding the occupation of another nation's territory. Anything that happened before 1949 is effectively rendered moot by this: The state of Israel is a thing that was created in 1948 as the result of both a civil war and a not-so-civil war. It bears no relation to the Kingdom of David, whilst Israel's many kertuffles regarding archeological sites are all about trying to establish a link to the Kingdom of David (for which archeological evidence is rather shaky) and deriving legitimacy from that.

Quote
But getting back to the issue of the thread, let's say that's why the names are as they are—because Jordan owns said region. What region are we referring to?
I thought it was specifically about East Jerusalem?

Quote
Quote
On 13 October 2016, UNESCO passed a resolution condemning Israel for purported "illegal aggression" against the Palestinian people, while subsequently denying that the Temple Mount had any connection to Judaism, referring to the holy site exclusively by its Islamic names. After receiving "vilification" from numerous Israeli politicians and diplomats, including Benjamin Netanyahu and Ayelet Shaked, Israel froze all ties with the organization. Netanyahu was quoted as saying, “To say that Israel has no link to the Temple Mount is like saying that China has no link to the Great Wall or that Egypt has no connection to the Pyramids”. On 14 October 2016, Ban ki-Moon and the Director-General of UNESCO highly criticized the draft-declaration, declaring that Judaism, Islam and Christianity have clear historical connections to Jerusalem and any attempt to deny the links between Judaism, the Temple Mount and the Western Wall were an affront to history and made the struggle for peace a more difficult one.

So please, quit your attempts at pretending this issue was illegitimate affronting history and making the struggle for peace a more difficult one. :rolleyes:

Sigh, it's the thin-skinnedness in which the various sides involved talk about this being OUR LAND(tm) that makes the struggle for peace more difficult. That Ban ki-Moon has to be summoned to resolve an issue that is simply about a ****ing name should give you a clear indication of how ridickilous this looks.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2016, 12:10:21 pm by -Joshua- »

 

Offline S-99

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Re: UNESCO just declared by vote: no Jewish connection to Temple Mount
Would the next move in this topic be that the holocaust never happened or reduce it to a matter of insignificance?

That is rhetorical. But, my understanding is that when people start calling other's belongings theirs is that it is in fact a play to usurp ownership.
So this is about them not using the Hebrew names for a place? Sounds like one of the pettiest complaints I've seen yet. Does Israel not have any real anti-Semitism to deal with that they have to bother with this nonsense? 
"Move along, nothing to see here", is a dangerous precedent as is, "It's not as bad as it seems". This kind of ignorance is unfortunately a powerful down play that furthers ignorance out of popularity. This is one of the mindsets that simply lets bad things happen by convincing others that what is happening will not come to fruition.....until it does.

If i owned a car, and one person started calling it theirs with their own name for it, then got back up from other people who believed the lie; they will all be pissed when i produce the car title with my name on it. But, they will still try to take what is mine even after that, and then comes the fight. God forbid any of you would simply let someone claim false ownership over any of your items; i am very certain that when "move along, nothing to see here" and, "it's not as bad as it seems" applies to any of your belongings and resources, guarantee you will think differently. I suppose no one cares until it's happening to them. However, the morality behind the tenth commandment, "thou shalt not covet" has a lot to do with what one should not do, since the aftermath is what you wrongfully take from others will be taken from you (you reap what you sew). And yes, personally i don't like to lie, cheat, and steal because of reaping what i sew.

Naming parts of israel with islamic and jordanian names is nothing more than to lay false claim and cause confusion in an attempt to make a steal.
Last i remember, when you conquer, you keep the spoils of war, you don't give it back to your enemy that is found wanting. Otherwise what is the point of the conflict in the first place?

To conclude since i know i will get backlash from atheists claiming that I cannot possibly be an intellectual, and that there is no such thing as morality. I not only disagree with these false assertions, but know that i am on a pecking plate like sandwich, and that it takes a real warped mind to find the simple truth i explained as wrong.
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Offline Unknown Target

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Re: UNESCO just declared by vote: no Jewish connection to Temple Mount
I'm not entirely sure what the problem is. The UN, an organization that was founded on the notion of that people should leave each other the **** alone, tends to care more about people's lives being made miserable then they do about claims based upon a 6000 year old text.

There is exhaustive archeological evidence that Jews have lived in Israel going back thousands of years. Ignoring or denying historical facts does not get you brownie points.

Are others supposed to please the Jews? Are we (as in the world) looking for brownie points from Israel now?

The Jewish people have historical ties to the Temple Mound - everyone does. That's the whole point. I think the people at UNESCO might be trying to force people to get along - which won't work. But Israel and the Western Democracies need to stop turning blind eyes to corruption of justice. In Israel, it's the permanent citizenship limbo a large portion of uneducated, angry non-Jews within their borders. They also need to chill the **** out about the religion thing. Everyone does. Seriously in what holy text anywhere does it not say something to the effect of "we're all a big family, so be nice to each other".

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: UNESCO just declared by vote: no Jewish connection to Temple Mount
If i owned a car, and one person started calling it theirs with their own name for it, then got back up from other people who believed the lie; they will all be pissed when i produce the car title with my name on it. But, they will still try to take what is mine even after that, and then comes the fight. God forbid any of you would simply let someone claim false ownership over any of your items;

And suppose that you own that car cause you stole it from someone else and then said it was yours because you had legally owned it years ago and the fact that it got impounded and legally stopped being your property doesn't count.

Cause that is much closer to what actually happened than your argument.
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Re: UNESCO just declared by vote: no Jewish connection to Temple Mount
And except that it's not a car that someone paid for but rather a geographical and archeological feature that predates everyone involved by a thousand years.

Quote from: S-99
Would the next move in this topic be that the holocaust never happened or reduce it to a matter of insignificance?

**** no. The near-annihilation of the jewish population in several countries is a testimony to the absolute worst humanity is capable of. Anything one can think of pales in it's comparison. This includes squabbles over the names of really old things.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2016, 06:14:48 am by -Joshua- »