Author Topic: John McAfee - Apple backdoor - Godwin's, defines "Hacker", threatens to eat shoe  (Read 10137 times)

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Offline The E

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Re: John McAfee - Apple backdoor - Godwin's, defines "Hacker", threatens to eat shoe
There's a reason why I use a rooted android phone :)
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Offline The E

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Re: John McAfee - Apple backdoor - Godwin's, defines "Hacker", threatens to eat shoe
The more serious answer here is that I rate the security of my data higher than the ability of law enforcement to access it. Ultimately, this is yet another attempt to put the genie of widely available strong encryption back in the bottle, and I am absolutely convinced that we need those tools to be available, even if it means that criminals may communicate freely.

I do recognise that what the FBI is asking for here is extraordinarily limited. They specifically asked for a firmware that only runs on that specific phone; not some sort of FBiOS they can slap onto any device they want. They are to be commended for the restraint shown, absolutely. But equally absolutely, someone needs to object to this, the powers of the writ the FBI used here need to be continually re-examined.
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Re: John McAfee - Apple backdoor - Godwin's, defines "Hacker", threatens to eat shoe
If you seriously think that brute-forcing a 4-digit PIN is at risk of putting the encryption genie back in the bottle you've severely misunderstood the status quo. Strong encryption is not in any way threatened by what the FBI are asking for; the only way this is putting your privacy at risk is if you trusted 13 bits of entropy to keep it secure, in which case it never actually was.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline The E

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Re: John McAfee - Apple backdoor - Godwin's, defines "Hacker", threatens to eat shoe
There is something to that argument.

I may need a bit to reevaluate my opinions in this matter.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: John McAfee - Apple backdoor - Godwin's, defines "Hacker", threatens to eat shoe
Yeah but it's not just the simple PIN encryption that is at stake here. The fact that the FBI are pushing the camel's nose into the tent is when you should protest. The rest of the camel will be much harder to complain about.
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Offline The E

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Re: John McAfee - Apple backdoor - Godwin's, defines "Hacker", threatens to eat shoe
Having reevaluated, and having read this article on Ars Technica, I've come to the conclusion that I've been arguing for the wrong team here. PH is right; I was wrong.

The thing to consider here is that this request by the FBI isn't actually a new thing; Apple has in the past agreed to similarly scoped requests. Their turnaround here seems to be more of a PR ploy than anything else.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
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Re: John McAfee - Apple backdoor - Godwin's, defines "Hacker", threatens to eat shoe
Yeah but it's not just the simple PIN encryption that is at stake here. The fact that the FBI are pushing the camel's nose into the tent is when you should protest. The rest of the camel will be much harder to complain about.

Google and Apple both redesigned the security schemes on their phones so that they didn't have the ability to break them, because they were regularly unlocking devices whenever asked to by law enforcement. The camel's been in the tent for a long, long time.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: John McAfee - Apple backdoor - Godwin's, defines "Hacker", threatens to eat shoe
I honestly think this is about establishing precedent rather than the FBI actually being unable to crack this phone.
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Re: John McAfee - Apple backdoor - Godwin's, defines "Hacker", threatens to eat shoe
The precedent of tech companies working with law enforcement to crack their devices has been around for a long, long time. This is a publicity stunt by Apple more than anything else.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: John McAfee - Apple backdoor - Godwin's, defines "Hacker", threatens to eat shoe
I don't completely disagree with you there. The problem is that Apple have designed a phone that they can hack. And now they have to save face when it comes to being required to hack it.

They should design a phone that they can't hack.

But nonetheless it is still an issue because I suspect the reason the FBI brought the case was very little to do with this particular phone, and more to do with establishing precedent.
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: John McAfee - Apple backdoor - Godwin's, defines "Hacker", threatens to eat shoe
there is a difference between a precedent of cooperation and a precedent of obligation.
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Offline Mongoose

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Re: John McAfee - Apple backdoor - Godwin's, defines "Hacker", threatens to eat shoe
Not that much, I suspect.  "Hey baby, our booty-call setup has been working great, sooooo how's about we move in together and start going antiquing?"

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: John McAfee - Apple backdoor - Godwin's, defines "Hacker", threatens to eat shoe
So this is kind of interesting...

San Bernardino Shooter's iCloud Password Changed While iPhone was in Government Possession

If I've understood correctly, the FBI is requesting that Apple create a new, signed firmware/version of the OS that allows brute force attacking the PIN code, rather than having the phone wipe itself clean after ten failed attempts.

But, and this is a big but, I've also seen claims that brute forcing the PIN is already possible by turning the phone off after a failed attempt, then turning it on, and trying a new number. If that is correct, then there is no real need for Apple to make it easier for the FBI or other officials to brute force their way through the PIN code and gain access to the phone data.


Again, assuming that information is correct, it does seem to me that the FBI's agenda is to create a legal precedent for forcing technology companies to create intentional backdoors on their technology so that law enforcement (and intelligence) agencies can basically use these backdoors whenever they have "need" for accessing that information.

Based on previous examples, these agencies tend to play fast and loose with things like wire tapping and other legally sanctioned breaches of privacy, and I don't believe this would be an exception.


This particular case of asking (or ordering?) Apple to help with accessing the phone might even be justified, but if they do create some kind of solution, who's to say that is the only case that solution could be used on? After the Pandora's Box is open, you can't easily close it.



Also, would be kind of tragicomic if they did crack the phone's PIN open and found that any potentially worthwhile information on it is behind another layer of encryption...
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Offline Dragon

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Re: John McAfee - Apple backdoor - Godwin's, defines "Hacker", threatens to eat shoe
They would still have to deal with delays that might incur. I imagine that it might even be possible to create an image of all data on the phone, then after it erases the data, just upload the backup and try again. However, all those measures raise the time needed for brute forcing to unacceptable levels. It could probably be done, but at an enormous cost of money, time and effort.

Again, this is not a backdoor. What they are asking for is more akin to telling Apple to remove metal plates from the front gate so they can ram through it. Nothing is being compromised except that particular phone. Sure, if they can do with that one, they can do so with any other one, but they'd have to physically acquire it first. Generally, it's common sense to consider any device that you don't have exclusive physical access to to be potentially compromised. Any device that is seized, stolen or lost is compromised, period. Also, this firmware would be useless for any phone but this particular one, because even though it can be modified to run on another one, Apple would have to re-sign that new version (as the signing system's entire point is to prevent unauthorized alterations like that).

There is no way to misuse software written specifically for a single device, one that they already have in their possession, to boot. It's hardly likely for them to misuse even the ability to force Apple to do this, because in the end, they'd still need physical access to the device in question. They might have been heavy-handed with wire tapping, but actually seizing someone's belongings is a much rarer occurrence.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: John McAfee - Apple backdoor - Godwin's, defines "Hacker", threatens to eat shoe
Okay, here's the question then. What do Apple do when they are approached by say, the Iranian government to do the same?


As I said before, this is kinda Apple's fault for writing the software in a way that made this possible.
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Re: John McAfee - Apple backdoor - Godwin's, defines "Hacker", threatens to eat shoe
There is a lot of really serious misunderstanding of what's actually going on in this thread. Read the Ars article The E linked.

This isn't a backdoor, it doesn't make it any easier for the FBI to access properly-secured data, it's not setting a precedent because this exact practice has already been routine for years.

What this actually is is Apple's CEO noticing that privacy is a hot political issue right now and taking the opportunity to grandstand.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: John McAfee - Apple backdoor - Godwin's, defines "Hacker", threatens to eat shoe
There is a lot of really serious misunderstanding of what's actually going on in this thread. Read the Ars article The E linked.

This isn't a backdoor, it doesn't make it any easier for the FBI to access properly-secured data, it's not setting a precedent because this exact practice has already been routine for years.

What this actually is is Apple's CEO noticing that privacy is a hot political issue right now and taking the opportunity to grandstand.

I won't deny that there is grandstanding going on. As I pointed out, it's because of the fact that Apple have made a phone that is basically insecure against their own actions. But as you pointed out yourself Apple deliberately changed things from the way they were in earlier models to avoid having to do this sort of hack. So it's obvious that they didn't want to be hacking phones in this way.
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Offline Klaustrophobia

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Re: John McAfee - Apple backdoor - Godwin's, defines "Hacker", threatens to eat shoe
The old "it's been happening for a while so it's fine" argument.  That DOES NOT make it okay.  And the fact that Apple is using this for publicity doesn't negate the fact that it's what they SHOULD do.  I don't want a corporation OR the government having unfettered access to my data (which is part of the reason I don't have a smartphone).  But if I had to pick one, it would be the corporations.  The government has proven time and time again that they don't give a flying **** about civil liberties.  It's easier to resist corporations by not buying their **** than it is the government, who can and do change the rules to suit them.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: John McAfee - Apple backdoor - Godwin's, defines "Hacker", threatens to eat shoe
I don't think either should have access. If Apple had taken the same care over the USB port that they did with the fingerprint scanner, this wouldn't be an issue.
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Re: John McAfee - Apple backdoor - Godwin's, defines "Hacker", threatens to eat shoe
As I pointed out, it's because of the fact that Apple have made a phone that is basically insecure against their own actions.

That's completely untrue. The encryption is still (as far as I know) rock hard; the only thing that Apple can circumvent is the rate limiter on passcode guesses. If you aren't using secure, high-entropy passcodes on your encrypted data then that's what made it vulnerable, not Apple or the government.

Also I'm not sure a lot of you quite grasp that encryption is a very, very, very exceptional instance of the state not being able to access your private information. Law enforcement are allowed to look at whatever they want if they have a warrant, this is a very old and probably reasonable principle; encryption is only and uniquely able to disrupt it by being physically impossible to breach without your consent.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.