Author Topic: Stuff's blow'n up  (Read 7760 times)

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Offline 666maslo666

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So there are two proposed solutions to this problem - one coming from the right is tightening immigration, a concrete and relatively simple to do thing, and the other coming from the left is some vague solving of poverty and muslim disconnect from society, blah blah. As if Europe is not already the most inclusive and wealthy place on the planet, but whatever. I am sure solution number one is much more effective and realistic.

There is also another important thing - this is not the US, right wing in Europe is not opposed to having social programs and the like for poor and immigrants. I dont believe anyone on the right would complain loudly if you treat immigrants well and help them integrate. If they want to try, good for them, I wish them luck! The opposite is not true - try to propose restricting immigration and the left will try their best to block that solution. Even tough it can coexist with their own efforts with no problem.

If you dont want to be part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
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'Having cause to be concerned' is a very different thing to literally, outright saying that "German right-wingers saying hateful things online is as bad as or worse than gangs of Muslim men sexually assaulting women". You want to try to debunk something, try to debunk the notion that Western progressives have a vested interest in downplaying that violence. Much like the notion that the West hates Muslims so much that they might as well throw their lives away fighting for an apocalyptic theocracy, you're going to have to; otherwise the entire moral foundation of your political stance will collapse.

Reading through your post, you don't seem to assign much agency to these immigrant people; you see them entirely reactive to Western actions. I don't think this is enough; I don't think you can understand ISIS, say, as just a reaction, and I don't think you can effectively make them go away by undoing whatever action you perceive as causing them.

"German right wingers saying hateful things online" is not the issue here.  You can criticize german ministers for downplaying violence (even though you would be wrong) but to dismiss the rhetoric that is leading to terrorist attacks as "German right wingers saying hateful things online" is in itself a massive downplaying of the issue in an enviroment where the NSU (no, not the car company) existed. Sexual assault is a huge issue in Germany as well, but the fascists frame this as a migrant only problem and use that rhetoric to justify attacks on migrants and migrant centers which now occur on a daily basis. That too is an issue. The attacks on women are an issue. The attacks on migrants are also an issue. They are both repugnant. They are both the result of various complicated circumstances that have to be dealt with en-masse.

And no, off course I am not assigning much agency to immigrants: Our contemporary political systems have *far* more agency then individual migrants. Or individual citizens for that matter - People are shaped much more by the world around them then they can shape themselves.

 

Offline The E

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What PH meant was that you're framing islamic terror purely in terms of it being a reaction to western politics. Which is fair enough, the mistakes we made in this regard are a huge factor in how this is playing out, but it's not the whole story.
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What PH meant was that you're framing islamic terror purely in terms of it being a reaction to western politics. Which is fair enough, the mistakes we made in this regard are a huge factor in how this is playing out, but it's not the whole story.

What can we, as western nations, do about the things that are not the results of western politics?

 

Online Bobboau

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in an abstract sense, if they are good, we can embrace them, if they are bad we can defend against them either by isolating ourselves from them or destroying them.

but acting like bad things are good things is certainly not a wise course of action.
what do other people in non-western parts of the world do about things that are the results of western politics?
« Last Edit: April 04, 2016, 04:17:13 am by Bobboau »
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Offline karajorma

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If you dont want to be part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

In which case you've just argued why the right should just give in and do what the left want. Since you've already established that there is no way in hell the left are going to do what the right want, the only solution that stands any chance of ever being implemented is the one the left want. You can argue that the restricting immigration solution is more effective all you like, but if it never happens it isn't effective at all. So given that we have a solution that you admit yourself might work, which might be implemented and a solution you believe would work but will never be implemented there can only ever be one choice.

So throw open your countries borders and start working on integration or you are part of the problem, right?
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Offline 666maslo666

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If you dont want to be part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

In which case you've just argued why the right should just give in and do what the left want. Since you've already established that there is no way in hell the left are going to do what the right want, the only solution that stands any chance of ever being implemented is the one the left want. You can argue that the restricting immigration solution is more effective all you like, but if it never happens it isn't effective at all. So given that we have a solution that you admit yourself might work, which might be implemented and a solution you believe would work but will never be implemented there can only ever be one choice.

So throw open your countries borders and start working on integration or you are part of the problem, right?

You are assuming that just because the left opposes the more effective solution means it has no chance of ever being implemented. The right can gain political power at the expense of the left and implement it without their cooperation - the right is already gaining political power all over Europe. I am not 100% sure this is how things would unfold, but I am even less sure of the viability and success of the leftist solution, so working towards the right's goal is still the best course of action.

That does not mean we cannot try the leftist integration solution in the meantime/alongside - the two are pretty much orthogonal, we can do both at the same time.

Even when we were discussing this topic for the first time, I have stated that the ideal solution would be to seal the borders while at the same time to treat immigrants really well. But, we dont live in an ideal world, and if I can choose only one of those options, I choose the more effective one - seal the border.

And one more thing, European right is pretty tame and even if it gets to power and achieves its goals, Europe as a whole will still be among the most inclusive and integrative places on the planet for immigrants. I dont even know what more we could do that we arent already doing...
« Last Edit: April 04, 2016, 09:32:39 am by 666maslo666 »
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Offline The E

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Meanwhile, that same right (as personified by Charlie Hebdo) is doing their best to encourage people to see any accommodation of Islam, even its most liberal, secular strains, as being paramount to enabling and encouraging terrorism (As seen here).

That's just pure xenophobia, pure isolationism right there. It's the good old lie about how "PC culture means we can't ask hard questions about Islam" again (Never mind that dozens of those questions are asked every week, every month on newspaper covers, in editorials and other media); it's just grade A bull**** from people who think that segregationism is a really good idea, but can't bring themselves to don the swastika.

Meanwhile, societies that are held up as successful examples of national purity (for lack of a better term) like Japan are having exciting new problems due to their collapsing social security systems, like an incredible rate of senior citizens being caught shoplifting because their pensions are way below the minimum necessary to live. If that's the world you want to build, go ahead. Personally, I'd want to find ways around those issues, and courting immigration to get the age pyramid balanced again seems like a really good idea.
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Offline 666maslo666

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And no, off course I am not assigning much agency to immigrants: Our contemporary political systems have *far* more agency then individual migrants. Or individual citizens for that matter - People are shaped much more by the world around them then they can shape themselves.

I really disagree with this, integration is 90% immigrant doing, 10% society doing. Do you think there would be much problems if instead of middle eastern muslims we were getting lets say, mass immigration of Jews or east Asians into Europe? No, there wouldnt be. In fact, both of those immigrant minorities tend to actually outperform the natives when it comes to crime rates or economic output, both in western and eastern Europe. So, while the role of society and political systems is important, there is a certain quality associated with an immigrant population itself that is even more decisive about integration. I dunno, this factor may be a result of parenting, immigrant peers, their cultural and religious baggage, traditional way of life and values, or even *gasp* genetics.. but this intrinsic factor exists and outweights the influence of political system and the like.
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Offline 666maslo666

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Meanwhile, societies that are held up as successful examples of national purity (for lack of a better term) like Japan are having exciting new problems due to their collapsing social security systems, like an incredible rate of senior citizens being caught shoplifting because their pensions are way below the minimum necessary to live. If that's the world you want to build, go ahead. Personally, I'd want to find ways around those issues, and courting immigration to get the age pyramid balanced again seems like a really good idea.

That is not the world that I want to build, but it is a world I would choose as a lesser evil. Your balanced age pyramid will be useless if it is balanced by a population with various integration problems. Then the net economic benefits will be quite underwhelming, if not even zero, while also leading to lots of other social problems. Thanks, but Id rather take my chances will demographic contraction.. perhaps go the way of AI and robotics to substitute the missing labor.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2016, 10:54:46 am by 666maslo666 »
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Online Bobboau

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yeah, clearly the solution is to give up on the whole overpopulation thing and just have as many kids as possible, then when we have too many flood them into some other part of the world.

I mean it's not like part of the reason no one has kids in the west is that there is not enough employment to afford them or anything.
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Offline 666maslo666

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I mean it's not like part of the reason no one has kids in the west is that there is not enough employment to afford them or anything.

I wouldnt be so sure, as far as I know wealthier and employed people tend to have even fewer children. Demographic-economic paradox is just weird...
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Online Bobboau

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or having fewer children tends to make you wealthier.
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Online Bobboau

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you know I just had a thought. It's going to be real funny when anti-gay/anti-women's rights/pro-religious/anti-science political leaders start getting elected in europe because of all of the new voters that have just been imported from the global equivalent of the American deep south.
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 
That hasn't happened in the past 50 years, doubt it's going to change now.

 

Offline 666maslo666

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you know I just had a thought. It's going to be real funny when anti-gay/anti-women's rights/pro-religious/anti-science political leaders start getting elected in europe because of all of the new voters that have just been imported from the global equivalent of the American deep south.

Oh, it is funny already :D In France, gays are significantly overrepresented among Front National voters. For a normal progressive-left party, this should be a huge embarrassment. Gays having to vote "far-right" to feel represented! Not so for modern western European regressive Left, who will readily choose to sacrifice secularism, womens rights and LGBT rights on the altar of multiculturalism, if required.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2015/01/how-marine-le-pen-is-winning-frances-gay-vote/
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Online Bobboau

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That hasn't happened in the past 50 years

That's what makes it funny, the fact it never could have possibly happened without the recent demographic altering levels of immigration.

and I forgot anti-jew in my list.
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 
That hasn't happened in the past 50 years

That's what makes it funny, the fact it never could have possibly happened without the recent demographic altering levels of immigration.

There have been far more demographically altering levels of immigration before this, back when our various nations where importing workers. The Netherlands currently has almost 2 million people (out of 17) living in it that are either themselves immigrants or children of immigrants from non-western descent. That's a big number to demographically alter, you'd have to do something rash like settle the entirety of 2015s syrian refugees in the Netherlands - and since there's a million of those, you would have an impact, but not one to the level of voting people into power.

This is offcourse assuming that they'd vote for the kind of bigotry that drove them away from their home country in the first place which is... meh.

 

Online Bobboau

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doesn't have to be enough to elect someone on their own, just enough to push an existing candidate into a win, the rise of the right in europe caused as a reaction against immigration is also promoting this sort of thing, ironically.
Would be funny if the literal nazis and the muslims found agreement on a few issues and managed to make enough of a voting block to start getting candidates elected and started using the weakened state of freedom of expression (weakened to try and shut these very forces down) to start getting 'degenerate' art banned (etc).
I would laugh my ass off if that were to happen.
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 
doesn't have to be enough to elect someone on their own, just enough to push an existing candidate into a win,

Right. You'd first have to find such a candidate that ticks your checkboxes - none currently exist. Then, you'd have to manage to shift the election in such a way that that party would get something like 40 seats (Which is what the current leading party of the dutch parliament, the VVD, has) out of 150. Then, you'd have to get another party to agree with them enough that they are willing to form a coalition government which has atleast 76 seats in parliament. Or bypass that and ensure that your hypothetical party has 76 seats.

Then you'd have to move up, since implementing the changes you require also requires changing the constitution for which you need 100 out of the 150 seats. Then you'd have to do that all again next election since changes to the constitution can only be implemented after there has been another election.