Author Topic: Stuff's blow'n up  (Read 7759 times)

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Offline 666maslo666

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The issue with this is, as ever, that that the countries with the highest relative amount of radicalized muslims in Europe are Belgium and France, which are both countries which are rather decidedly un-liberal when it comes to the treatment of immigrants (esp. France, and it's questionable whether colonial subjects can be considered immigrants).

By "liberal immigration policy" I mean they let lots of them inside, not how they treat them. Belgium and France are some of the most liberal European countries in this aspect, certainly not un-liberal. Anyway, an incident from 1961 isnt relevant and I wouldnt call French treatment of immigrants un-liberal.

You are going to have to explain why Belgium has more then double the absolute amount of Jihadgoers in comparison to the Netherlands even though The Netherlands has three times as many immigrants then Belgium does (To the point that the amount of non-western immigrants in the Netherlands outranks the total amount of immigrants in Belgium). When you start looking at the relative values instead of the absolute ones, the differences are fairly massive.

This is not something that can be explained trough the amount of immigrants in a country.

Dont forget that muslims are not spread out evenly. One important reason why Belgium has so many Jihadgoers is that there is a very significant concentration of muslims in Brussels, which is now almost one third islamised (I kid you not!). In a way, Belgium is just a sign of a future to come as % of muslims in western Europe rises.
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Offline Mika

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Yeah,

There's no single word to describe how I feel about this. On the other hand I'm sad that people had to die (again) for something completely meaningless. And on the other hand I'm sort of happy that it happened in Bruxelles, hitting close the MEPs. Perhaps we'll now see something more rapid and sensible about this forced immigration issue?

Quote
One can prevent people from radicalising. It is not an inborn trait, even if some politicians say otherwise.

I don't think there's a 100 % effective method. There's an old saying in Finnish, which goes like: violence is rarely the working option, but when it is, it is also the only right option. Which refers to people you just can't reason with.

Since I know folk wisdom is not on high scientific basis around here, my suggestion would be the following:

1) When caught in preparing the act, don't throw the would-be martyrs in jail. Declare them clinically insane (well, they are if they are planning something like that) and throw them to asylum, preferably for the rest of their lives. Film their lives and broadcast to outside world, preferably after some years of treatments and sedatives.

2) Bury the suicide bombers with pig carcasses. Any little doubt in their minds helps.

3) Criminally charge those people who did not alert the authorities of preparation of the terrorist attack. There's already laws in place for this, the only thing that needs to be done is to implement them as it was done before. It doesn't matter you'll need to investigate the actions of couple of hundred people (in the worst case); in reality the worst case is not to do anything about their inaction and telling them hiding this sort of activity from the officials is somehow acceptable. If they don't have nationality, expel. If they acquired nationality, or are born in the country, then the verdict is significant time in jail, like 15-20 years.

EDIT:
4) Offer significant cash rewards and protection for those who expose the jihadists.

Of course, the above has to hold pretty much for everybody so that the muslim population doesn't feel singled out. But hey, if they commit more crimes, then it's their fault as the same rules apply for everybody.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2016, 05:00:06 pm by Mika »
Relaxed movement is always more effective than forced movement.

 
One can prevent people from radicalising. It is not an inborn trait, even if some politicians say otherwise.

Sure. Prevention is better than cure.

2) Bury the suicide bombers with pig carcasses. Any little doubt in their minds helps.

I don't know if it works, but I've always thought that this idea is diabolically clever, worthy of a "magnificent bastard".

 

Offline Mika

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I don't know if it works, but I've always thought that this idea is diabolically clever, worthy of a "magnificent bastard".

Given the idiocy around, I think it has a small chance of reducing the amount of jihadists. It at least makes them doubt their own prophets, priests and teachers.

It wont take long till there's some kind of addendum that the rule doesn't apply if you are already dead when it happens, but getting them to debate it is already a small victory. And there's still that little nagging doubt regardless what the nowadays priest says compared to a thousand years old sacred text...

But really, the home brewn mass-murderers never needed any religious justification for their actions and these guys are likely not any different, so I think that this should be considered as a mental health issue. Those unable to function in the society end up in the asylum. I think that will work better for everyone than just sitting in the jail.
Relaxed movement is always more effective than forced movement.

 

Offline jr2

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* jr2 waits for the above comments about pigskins to be raked over by a dozen HLP justice plasma flamethrowers

:yawn: Something something it would only further radicalize other moderate Muslims something something.

 

Offline Mika

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* jr2 waits for the above comments about pigskins to be raked over by a dozen HLP justice plasma flamethrowers

:yawn: Something something it would only further radicalize other moderate Muslims something something.

Well, I suppose that would work as a litmus test then. Those becoming radicalized, well, if any crime is committed, you lock them up or expel them.
Relaxed movement is always more effective than forced movement.

 

Offline jr2

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* jr2 waits for the above comments about pigskins to be raked over by a dozen HLP justice plasma flamethrowers

:yawn: Something something it would only further radicalize other moderate Muslims something something.

Well, I suppose that would work as a litmus test then. Those becoming radicalized, well, if any crime is committed, you lock them up or expel them.

Yeah, personally, I think it could only radicalize those Muslims who were forming a silent assent behind the radical ones.  Those who disapproved, while they might also disapprove of such a response, IMHO would not radicalize.

 
There's no single word to describe how I feel about this. On the other hand I'm sad that people had to die (again) for something completely meaningless. And on the other hand I'm sort of happy that it happened in Bruxelles, hitting close the MEPs. Perhaps we'll now see something more rapid and sensible about this forced immigration issue?

you piece of ****!
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline Mika

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* jr2 waits for the above comments about pigskins to be raked over by a dozen HLP justice plasma flamethrowers

:yawn: Something something it would only further radicalize other moderate Muslims something something.

Come to think of it, I'm actually a bit curious why would you be cautious about this in the first place and how does this cautiousness relate to the other religions?
Relaxed movement is always more effective than forced movement.

 

Offline Mika

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There's no single word to describe how I feel about this. On the other hand I'm sad that people had to die (again) for something completely meaningless. And on the other hand I'm sort of happy that it happened in Bruxelles, hitting close the MEPs. Perhaps we'll now see something more rapid and sensible about this forced immigration issue?

you piece of ****!

I don't think that will help your agenda, whatever it is.

I don't refuse that I'm cold (or appear cold), but that's something you'll just have to cope with.
Relaxed movement is always more effective than forced movement.

 

Offline AtomicClucker

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Well, my response to this mess is "****!"

Whatever the agenda, seems to me all of the "spying" powers combined doesn't make up for good old fashioned police work and investigation. More time and energy is spent of collection of potential threats than actually investigating said threats and a little cloak and dagger work. European governments seem more concerned about Nationalists than they do about dialogue - and sadly, the European government will only feed into the Nationalistic fears as they make things worse.

Perhaps its time for a military solution to ISIS, or really, a good dose of common Liberal sense, but the current crop of European governments lack both in spades.
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Offline Mika

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European governments seem more concerned about Nationalists than they do about dialogue - and sadly, the European government will only feed into the Nationalistic fears as they make things worse.

That's the thing what me and some Eastern Europeans have been saying for some time. Nationalism has been down-played and portrayed as a bad thing because that will slow down the integration of the EU, but the unfortunate side effect has been that the EU nations currently lack the self-preservation that comes with healthy nationalism. Then you get the rise of ultra-right wing, and the longer the moderate nationalists image is stretched to the limit in the media, the better support the ultra-right wing gets.

My prediction is that the Schengen treaty will break or become modified within this year and national borders are either partially restored or reinstated.
Relaxed movement is always more effective than forced movement.

 

Offline Dragon

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Moderate nationalism is indeed a good thing. We used to call it "patriotism" back when it was in fashion. I think that Germany in particular has a big problem with it (what with its experiences with hardline nationalism in the previous century), but other countries are lacking that as well. It's as if they lack the nation-level "will to survive". A sensible amount of patriotism could probably help with integration, since it could instill enthusiasm for the immigrants' new home. Of course, it's not like any of it is going to cross the politicians' minds...

I think that the current crop of European governments is simply inadequate at governing at just about anything but a perfect situation. They're too soft, and that softness is being exploited both by hardline nationalists and terrorists. Compare that to Russia, which despite its own problems (crime and corruption, mostly) is growing stronger. I think that given everything, Russia is currently a safer bet than most European countries. I guess it just shows just how well such enlightened ideas as "human rights", "liberty", "social security" and "democracy" are working out in a time of crisis.

Fortunately, Poland, of all places, seems to be doing rather well. Maybe it's too insignificant to bother bombing it, or perhaps our government did something right for once. I dunno, but I certainly haven't heard of any ultranationalists threatening to dislodge the usual clique that's running the show here. :)

 

Offline Mika

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I wouldn't be willing to write off values such as liberty, democracy or human rights because of this, but social security we could debate to some extent. Those values are what prevents us from becoming the same or falling back to Middle Ages, and I don't want to go there. As in, there is actually a military solution to Middle East despite what people say, but is principally glassing that particular section of the globe. It's just that I don't want to live on that sort of world. It's those values that actually make living above 63 degree of latitude possible in the first place.

So we play by our own laws, and it's up to immigrants whether they like them or not. If they don't follow the laws and still want to stay, it's first a legal matter and if it goes worse, then it is a national defense matter.

I'd refine the statement by saying that all the values touted in the media mean nothing if all what is currently done in the name of the values results in a period of anarchy and revolution.

The politicians are a reflection of the average population; the European nations have not been challenged for some time by any outside force (which was seen with Ukraine), and the current crop of politicians are mostly engaged in securing best deals for themselves and possibly for their countries (or for some major corporations there), with the advantage of the EU coming last - and this is coming from somebody who has dealt with EU officials and travelled to Bruxelles several times.
Relaxed movement is always more effective than forced movement.

 

Offline karajorma

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2) Bury the suicide bombers with pig carcasses. Any little doubt in their minds helps.

Pork is not Kryptonite to live Muslims, let alone dead ones.

This would be like trying to un-radicalise Westbro Baptists by having gay people **** on their graves. Is there anyone stupid enough to think that it wouldn't entrench the existing radicals more as well as possibly bring in new recruits? Is there anyone who thinks we should start doing that to Jewish terrorists?

The entire idea is basically only useful in recognising who is a bigot incapable of thinking about the problem and instead reaching for quick fix solutions that will make the problem worse if they do anything at all.
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Offline Mika

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Is there anyone stupid enough to think that it wouldn't entrench the existing radicals more as well as possibly bring in new recruits?

That would sort of be the point in the most Stalinesque way. Radicalize those who can possibly be radicalized and deal with it now rather than later when they've been "integrated" to the society. It'd be possible to do that here with a relative controllable number of muslims around, don't know about Central Europe then.
Relaxed movement is always more effective than forced movement.

 

Offline Dragon

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I'm pretty sure that suggestion was a joke everyone took too seriously. The problem with dealing with radicals is that it can be difficult to tell who's already radicalized and who isn't. You might err on the side of caution, of course, but that'd be a whole new level of "Stalinesque"... :)
I wouldn't be willing to write off values such as liberty, democracy or human rights because of this, but social security we could debate to some extent. Those values are what prevents us from becoming the same or falling back to Middle Ages, and I don't want to go there. As in, there is actually a military solution to Middle East despite what people say, but is principally glassing that particular section of the globe. It's just that I don't want to live on that sort of world. It's those values that actually make living above 63 degree of latitude possible in the first place.
Maybe not Middle Ages, but if things keep going like that, I can see the world eventually reverting to a more 19th/pre-WWI 20th century philosophy. Somehow, it seems that the most "modern" countries, with spotless human rights records and all that stuff, are the ones that aren't doing all that well lately. On the other hand, we've got countries like Russia and China, which play fast and loose with those values and seem noticeably better off... It's a very cynical conclusion, but that's the way things look.

Of course, I would prefer living in a world in which those things hold up, but ultimately, it seems like such a world can't last long. You're either willing to do horrible things to people, or eventually get overrun by those who are. That's precisely what happened in Ukraine (and those guys weren't even all that soft, the Ukrainians went pretty far themselves). TBH, I'm just resigned to that. If the world decides to drop the enlightened stuff and go back to the old "nobles and peasants" routine, I'll just do my best to find myself in the former category, no matter how they decide to call it.

The politicians do reflect the "average population", but only from the time of the last elections. In the modern world, things change quickly and that "lag" can be quite important. See Germany, which has been furious with the current government for quite a while. Granted, by this point, Merkel gets flak even from her own party, but it took a good while to get to that point, too.

 

Offline AtomicClucker

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Well, I see the "security" state as a sham. It's a monster created by paranoia and fear, rather than providing safety, instead becomes as oppressive as the thing it claims to fight. It isn't just the war on encryption, surveillance and crap, but it's the paper tiger erected to provide the government, not the populace a sense of security. And the recent crackdown on free speech in European countries has me deeply concerned.

Rather than dialogue, referendums, and perhaps analysis, the governments were quick to capitulate to migrant demands and regressive leftist policies to stifle any talk. And debate and actually factual solutions are what regressives and hardliners don't want. They benefit politically from the chaos, while people grow desperate. Yeah, and I'm purposely invoking what I and many other pseudo-intellectuals call leftists-marxist asshats, regressive, because their political aims are self-serving and counter productive. The leftist and right-wing media have only made things worst. Attempting to be a centrist is considered career suicide it seems.

That being said though, the bigger problems are a complex set of interactions and events playing off one another. And I think it would take a few firm displays of sanity to starting mooring us on the right course again.
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The pig thing has to be the perfect summary of how ****ing stupid chickenhawk reactionaries are. "Oh this movement is gaining huge ground by spinning a narrative about the righteous being downtrodden by the infidel and fighting back, well let's start acting out their ****ing script, that'll show them!"
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline AtomicClucker

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The pig thing has to be the perfect summary of how ****ing stupid chickenhawk reactionaries are. "Oh this movement is gaining huge ground by spinning a narrative about the righteous being downtrodden by the infidel and fighting back, well let's start acting out their ****ing script, that'll show them!"

Well, it's easy to be reactionary on either end of the spectrum - but while I find the pig thing god awfully stupid, Screaming about Islam doesn't help - and I tend to argue the problem for radicalism is a mix of identity crisis and social anxiety. And with the way things are, Western society is beginning to turn on itself in disturbing ways rather than closing ranks and trying to sort things out.
Blame Blue Planet for my Freespace2 addiction.