Author Topic: Stuff's blow'n up  (Read 7697 times)

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Offline NGTM-1R

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That would sort of be the point in the most Stalinesque way. Radicalize those who can possibly be radicalized

When it comes to how easy it is to make men do abominable things, one should consider the instructive lessons of Stalin's USSR and Hitler's Germany in two senses.

First, it's easier than you think.

Second, once you've wanked away the problem by using pigs and teaching the people who do the pig bits exactly what they're doing in trying to literally deny people the afterlife with your HARD MEN crap, you've created a bunch of guys who are all HARD MEN DOING THE HARD THINGS basically for the sake of showing off how hard you are. You are literally manufacturing sociopaths.

What do you intend to do with them when you are done?
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Offline Dragon

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Send them to cut trees in taiga. If you're gonna go Stalinesque, go all the way (if your country doesn't have any taiga, you can substitute any back-breaking labor in an isolated location). :)

 
i'm sorry was that meant to be a serious answer?

it is hard to tell because i'm working in the reference frame of you thinking all problems of governance can be solved with absolute monarchy
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Offline Mongoose

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Second, once you've wanked away the problem by using pigs and teaching the people who do the pig bits exactly what they're doing in trying to literally deny people the afterlife with your HARD MEN crap, you've created a bunch of guys who are all HARD MEN DOING THE HARD THINGS basically for the sake of showing off how hard you are. You are literally manufacturing sociopaths.

What do you intend to do with them when you are done?
Hey that wasn't a problem when we trained the mujahadeen fighters against the Soviets, right?  Didn't cause any trouble at all later, no sir!

 

Offline karajorma

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I'm pretty sure that suggestion was a joke everyone took too seriously.

Read the article I posted. It's really not.
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Offline 666maslo666

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I believe one thing you have to do is to break up muslim no-go zones such as Molenbeek. How can they integrate if most of the time they arent even surrounded by western culture? The problem is, you cant do that when muslims are like 30% of the city. Then you are just ****ed, lol. What will happen now is the emergence of a real multiculturalism, not merely a few kebab shops here and there, but cultures with different basic values living side by side. And it wont be pretty..
« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 01:22:47 am by 666maslo666 »
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Quote from: Maslo
Anyway, an incident from 1961 isnt relevant
Perhaps, but it is telling that the french authorities have managed to murder more of their own civilians then any terrorist can lay claim to. The effects of those atrocities do carry trough throughout the ages, as the people that were affected by this are still alive today.

Quote from: Maslo
Dont forget that muslims are not spread out evenly. One important reason why Belgium has so many Jihadgoers is that there is a very significant concentration of muslims in Brussels, which is now almost one third islamised (I kid you not!). In a way, Belgium is just a sign of a future to come as % of muslims in western Europe rises.

Not really, but you have touched upon one of the problems that lead to situations like what happened in in Paris in 2005: The banlieue and boroughs like Molenbeek are all areas with a very high amount of immigrants and areas that have been completely neglected by French and Belgian politics. Trough negligence such as this you create a social class where it is very hard to move out from, and history has shown time and time again that those are the people who radicalise.

There's no single word to describe how I feel about this. On the other hand I'm sad that people had to die (again) for something completely meaningless. And on the other hand I'm sort of happy that it happened in Bruxelles, hitting close the MEPs. Perhaps we'll now see something more rapid and sensible about this forced immigration issue?

you piece of ****!

I don't think that will help your agenda, whatever it is.

I don't refuse that I'm cold (or appear cold), but that's something you'll just have to cope with.

Do you realize that this goes both ways? When you aim to use a terror attack to advance the political goals that the terrorists themselves want to be advanced you're not being cold at all: You're simply playing directly into ISIS's hands. For that, you can expect a bit of blowback and cowering behind a double standard really won't help.

Second, once you've wanked away the problem by using pigs and teaching the people who do the pig bits exactly what they're doing in trying to literally deny people the afterlife with your HARD MEN crap, you've created a bunch of guys who are all HARD MEN DOING THE HARD THINGS basically for the sake of showing off how hard you are. You are literally manufacturing sociopaths.

But the thing is, the politics that Mika proposes is not HARD MEN DOING HARD THINGS, it's just hysteria. It's cowardly, even, suggesting to defile the dead as if they are possessed by demons that need to be exorcised. It is, at best, revelling in barbarism in order to hide from insecurity. At worst it's, as others have already pointed out, directly playing into our opponent's hands.

The work is being done in the classroom, teachers who notice that 2 kids (Because these are really just kids, unfortunately) are missing, alert the cops and trough their work prevent 5 more kids from radicalising, is the stuff that matters. It's what the Belgians are doing right now: Offering rooms to those affected, playing a Cello in the ruins without any fear for secondaries, kids chalking compassion into the scorched pavement. It's the blitz spirit: Keep calm and carry on. It speaks credit to the Belgian monarch that he did not respond to a terror attack by being terrified, but rather encouraged the people to respond with "Determination, calmth and dignity".

 

Offline The E

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1) When caught in preparing the act, don't throw the would-be martyrs in jail. Declare them clinically insane (well, they are if they are planning something like that) and throw them to asylum, preferably for the rest of their lives. Film their lives and broadcast to outside world, preferably after some years of treatments and sedatives.

What a great idea!

Hey, I have an even better one: Do this for all criminals! After all, noone in their right mind would ever commit a crime; getting everyone hopped on drugs is surely going to help.

For real though: This is a terrible idea. Not only are psychiatric care institutions not equipped to deal with something like this, it also runs counter to the goal of psychiatric care. It is generally accepted that deliberately injuring prisoners physically is unethical; why do you believe that doing injury to their minds is not?

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2) Bury the suicide bombers with pig carcasses. Any little doubt in their minds helps.

Doubt of what, exactly? Any suicide bomber already knows that doing the deed will elevate him in the eyes of his deity; Surely the transgressions of nonbelievers are irrelevant in this regard.
And yeah, this bull**** would do nothing except drive more moderates into the arms of the extremists, for it would be clear proof that the society that does this actually does hate islam as much as ISIS, Qaeda et al claim they do.

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3) Criminally charge those people who did not alert the authorities of preparation of the terrorist attack.

What's the threshold here? The guy at the electronics discounter who sold a prepaid phone to a foreign looking dude? The guy at the used car dealership that sold that van to that arabic looking dude a couple months back? The guy who answered a question on the chemistry stackoverflow? How do you establish, in an airtight way, that someone had enough knowledge to figure out that someone else was planning an attack?


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There's already laws in place for this, the only thing that needs to be done is to implement them as it was done before.

Name the laws, please.

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It doesn't matter you'll need to investigate the actions of couple of hundred people (in the worst case);

No, the worst case is that people will flood the authorities with bull**** reports because their neighbour prays to Mecca a couple times per day. Which means that perfectly innocent people will be heavily scrutinized, while actual perpetrators will find it easy to evade surveillance.


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in reality the worst case is not to do anything about their inaction and telling them hiding this sort of activity from the officials is somehow acceptable. If they don't have nationality, expel. If they acquired nationality, or are born in the country, then the verdict is significant time in jail, like 15-20 years.

So basically a jail sentence or deportation for not being a mindreader. Nice.

You haven't actually thought this through, have you.

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EDIT:
4) Offer significant cash rewards and protection for those who expose the jihadists.

Wow, would you look at that. Something that might actually work. Wouldn't have expected to see that here, kudos.

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Of course, the above has to hold pretty much for everybody so that the muslim population doesn't feel singled out. But hey, if they commit more crimes, then it's their fault as the same rules apply for everybody.

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Offline zookeeper

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Quote
3) Criminally charge those people who did not alert the authorities of preparation of the terrorist attack.

What's the threshold here? The guy at the electronics discounter who sold a prepaid phone to a foreign looking dude? The guy at the used car dealership that sold that van to that arabic looking dude a couple months back? The guy who answered a question on the chemistry stackoverflow? How do you establish, in an airtight way, that someone had enough knowledge to figure out that someone else was planning an attack?


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There's already laws in place for this, the only thing that needs to be done is to implement them as it was done before.

Name the laws, please.

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It doesn't matter you'll need to investigate the actions of couple of hundred people (in the worst case);

No, the worst case is that people will flood the authorities with bull**** reports because their neighbour prays to Mecca a couple times per day. Which means that perfectly innocent people will be heavily scrutinized, while actual perpetrators will find it easy to evade surveillance.


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in reality the worst case is not to do anything about their inaction and telling them hiding this sort of activity from the officials is somehow acceptable. If they don't have nationality, expel. If they acquired nationality, or are born in the country, then the verdict is significant time in jail, like 15-20 years.

So basically a jail sentence or deportation for not being a mindreader. Nice.

You haven't actually thought this through, have you.

...so you think that it should not be possible to charge people for choosing to not notice authorities if they have knowledge of a forthcoming case of mass murder? Because that's what you seem to be insinuating under the hyperbole and strawmen.

 

Offline The E

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...so you think that it should not be possible to charge people for choosing to not notice authorities if they have knowledge of a forthcoming case of mass murder? Because that's what you seem to be insinuating under the hyperbole and strawmen.

How do you prove that someone knew that someone else was planning an attack? If I told you, right here and right now, that I will be bombing my hometown's train station in exactly one hour, would you be compelled to contact the authorities, given all that you know about me through the interactions we've had online?

This is the same problem schools have when dealing with the possibility of a a spree killing by a current or former student. In those cases, there's usually a progression pointing towards the attacker contemplating and planning the attack days if not weeks before it happens, and yet despite all the previous cases, there are still ones that seem to happen out of the blue. Do you think that punishing the parents, teachers and friends of the killer(s) for not noticing what that person was planning would help prevent future killing sprees?

That's what I mean by punishing people for not being mindreaders. A sufficiently determined attacker will be able to conceal his or her intent until it's too late (This is analoguous to people who commit suicide despite being under psychiatric care); punishing the people around the attacker for not being able to figure out that person's true intentions is not going to help matters.
Now, a different case can be made about co-conspirators, people who were fully involved in planning the attacks and such, but as far as I can work out, those are already being prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

If there is a third category here, I would like to know what it is.
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Offline zookeeper

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...so you think that it should not be possible to charge people for choosing to not notice authorities if they have knowledge of a forthcoming case of mass murder? Because that's what you seem to be insinuating under the hyperbole and strawmen.

How do you prove that someone knew that someone else was planning an attack? If I told you, right here and right now, that I will be bombing my hometown's train station in exactly one hour, would you be compelled to contact the authorities, given all that you know about me through the interactions we've had online?

No, I wouldn't be. But it wouldn't exactly be a problem if I did and as a result the police caught you on your way out and took you in for questioning. Should you be charged? No. Should you be convicted? Definitely not. Is it wrong to stop you and check that you're not actually carrying a bomb and question you about your claimed intent? No.

Should I be charged for not reporting you? No. Should I be charged for not reporting you, if you actually did carry out the bombing? Seems understandable, even though I would disagree. Should I be convicted, in that case? No, because our interactions are on record and they suggest that it was entirely reasonable to not take your claim seriously.

However, if I believed that there's a decent chance that you're actually going to do it (for example, if you were someone I knew had attempted a bombing before) but still I didn't do anything, then yeah I should be convicted.


This is the same problem schools have when dealing with the possibility of a a spree killing by a current or former student. In those cases, there's usually a progression pointing towards the attacker contemplating and planning the attack days if not weeks before it happens, and yet despite all the previous cases, there are still ones that seem to happen out of the blue. Do you think that punishing the parents, teachers and friends of the killer(s) for not noticing what that person was planning would help prevent future killing sprees?

Obviously not. You'd have to prove that they actually knew or had a strong warranted suspicion and willfully turned a blind eye, just like you have to prove any allegation which involves whether the person knew or didn't know something. That's what courts do. If you don't have evidence that the person knew or clearly should have known, then of course they should not be punished. We don't decriminalize failing to provide assistance to a victim of an accident just because obviously it's possible that in some cases the person just genuinely didn't notice.

I have no doubt that in virtually all school shootings the parents, teachers and friends of the perpetrator didn't think that they'd actually do something like that. A plausible exception would be if they had told of their intentions to similarly-minded friends, who believed them but didn't try to stop it because they wanted it to happen too.


That's what I mean by punishing people for not being mindreaders. A sufficiently determined attacker will be able to conceal his or her intent until it's too late (This is analoguous to people who commit suicide despite being under psychiatric care); punishing the people around the attacker for not being able to figure out that person's true intentions is not going to help matters.
Now, a different case can be made about co-conspirators, people who were fully involved in planning the attacks and such, but as far as I can work out, those are already being prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

If there is a third category here, I would like to know what it is.

Criminals of all sorts reveal their intentions all the time out of stupidity, even though they could conceal them. Only smart and sufficiently determined ones won't.

A third category is of course people who aren't co-conspirators but are aware of what they are or have been up to.

If you want an easily palatable example, then consider a neo-nazi who their pals ask to help carry their ski masks and rifle-sized heavy bags into their unmarked van, while having heard them talk about good locations for a shooting spree and how they're totally gonna nail some of them n-words this time. Not a co-conspirator, yet (unless they're mentally handicapped) they should have known. If they get charged and convicted for failing to alert authorities, that's not punishing them for not being a mindreader.

Maybe there aren't any such non-co-conspirators who knew or should have known, maybe there are.

 

Offline karajorma

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If you want an easily palatable example, then consider a neo-nazi who their pals ask to help carry their ski masks and rifle-sized heavy bags into their unmarked van, while having heard them talk about good locations for a shooting spree and how they're totally gonna nail some of them n-words this time. Not a co-conspirator, yet (unless they're mentally handicapped) they should have known. If they get charged and convicted for failing to alert authorities, that's not punishing them for not being a mindreader

Wanna explain how you are going to prove that happened beyond a reasonable doubt without also basically proving said person was actually a co-conspirator? Cause in your above case, I suspect that's exactly what they would be charged as.
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Offline zookeeper

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Wanna explain how you are going to prove that happened beyond a reasonable doubt without also basically proving said person was actually a co-conspirator? Cause in your above case, I suspect that's exactly what they would be charged as.

No, I don't. The same way anything similar gets proven.


Cause in your above case, I suspect that's exactly what they would be charged as.

Then all anyone's talking about is co-conspirators and everyone agrees that they should be charged, and The_E would have manufactured perceived disagreement out of thin air. I'll give him more credit than that.

 

Offline karajorma

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Mika is suggesting that we criminalise being someone who knows a terrorist on the grounds that although we can't prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, they should have known. That's bull**** and a complete about-face on the most important assumption in criminal law, innocence unless proven guilty.

Mika is not talking about prosecutions for conspiracy because he's claimed that
3) Criminally charge those people who did not alert the authorities of preparation of the terrorist attack. There's already laws in place for this, the only thing that needs to be done is to implement them as it was done before.

i.e that we don't prosecute for conspiracy when it can be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. He has of course offered no proof whatsoever that this is actually the case.

Wanna explain how you are going to prove that happened beyond a reasonable doubt without also basically proving said person was actually a co-conspirator? Cause in your above case, I suspect that's exactly what they would be charged as.

No, I don't. The same way anything similar gets proven.

I'm an idiot. Explain to me exactly how it is proven that someone had full knowledge a crime was about to be committed, did nothing and yet wasn't a conspirator. Cause somehow I suspect that such cases are very rare even if they have actually happened. In which case Mika is making mountains out of molehills in an attempt to generate outrage.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 06:57:12 am by karajorma »
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Offline NGTM-1R

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No, I don't. The same way anything similar gets proven.

Hint: it doesn't. You and Mika are complaining about Accessory Before The Fact. This is rarely charged because unless you have someone on video looking into the bag and seeing it's full of rifles then it's more or less impossible to prove they actually know it's full of rifles and not rebar unless they straight up admit that.

I mean, I guess you can hope they break down on the stand and say the wrong thing, if you want. Other than that you can't really say what they knew and did not know.
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Offline 666maslo666

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Here is a pretty good article about recent attacks and the response to them:

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/03/a-terrorist-attack-has-happened-in-europe-let-the-standard-response-begin

The banlieue and boroughs like Molenbeek are all areas with a very high amount of immigrants and areas that have been completely neglected by French and Belgian politics. Trough negligence such as this you create a social class where it is very hard to move out from, and history has shown time and time again that those are the people who radicalise.

I think you are vastly overestimating the influence of politics over such places. Politics can be used to prevent the creation of immigrant ghettos in the first place, by strict immigration control, and maybe by a strong policy of spreading the immigrants around.

But once the ghettos began to be established, I doubt French and Belgian politicians could have done much. Trying to integrate someone who does not really want to assimilate is an impossible task. Dont blame the politicians, blame the immigrant communities themselves, they are at fault. It is their duty to integrate, not the duty of politicians to pander to them. We shouldnt have to teach them not to radicalize..


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Explain to me exactly how it is proven that someone had full knowledge a crime was about to be committed, did nothing and yet wasn't a conspirator. Cause somehow I suspect that such cases are very rare even if they have actually happened. In which case Mika is making mountains out of molehills in an attempt to generate outrage.

Somehow I suspect you will find several hundred similar cases in Molenbeek. I dont believe that neighbourhood wasnt aware that there are terrorists hiding among them for several months. That said, I dont agree with reducing burden of proof in terrorism related offenses.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 12:37:57 pm by 666maslo666 »
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Offline The E

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Given that we've had several cases in the past where people kidnapped women and kept them locked up in the basement or worse for years or decades without anyone suspecting anything, the assumption that the community must have known that there were terrorists among them is unfounded.
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Correct me if this is demonstrably false, but aren't openly extremist preachers fairly prevalent in European Islamic communities? These attacks were committed by an organised group in collaboration with a large international movement, comparing them to individual sex offenders is totally disingenuous; and it doesn't sound that unreasonable to me, on the face of it, that probably some members of the perpetrators' community were aware that they were planning to commit a violent attack.
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Correct me if this is demonstrably false, but aren't openly extremist preachers fairly prevalent in European Islamic communities?

No. There has been the occasional bout of political furor when an imam from, say, Saudi-Arabia comes over to preach in a dutch Mosque, but even then the extremism has been rather debatable. We do, unfortunately, have an enviroment where islamic preachers are very tightly monitored to see if they might say something objectionable.

 

Offline 666maslo666

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We do, unfortunately, have an enviroment where islamic preachers are very tightly monitored to see if they might say something objectionable.

And why the heck would that be unfortunate? If you have really managed to monitor them very tightly, then good for you..
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