Author Topic: Panama Papers  (Read 8517 times)

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Offline Bobboau

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http://panamapapers.sueddeutsche.de/en/

2.6TB of data from a company that deals with all of the world's most corrupt individuals.

This does not seems to be a wikileaks like situation though, you cannot look through the data yourself. and this is a really well produced website so I am a bit suspicious about this whole deal.
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Offline The E

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That's what happens when the leak happens old-style, with people offering their information to journalists, who then proceed to analyse whatever was leaked for a year.

I'm curious though, Bob, why is having a well produced website a suspicious thing?
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Offline zookeeper

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I'm curious though, Bob, why is having a well produced website a suspicious thing?

Because when you put time and resources into fancy graphics and trendy webdesign, it gives the impression that you're not trying to just present the facts, but a constructed narrative that's supposed to make things appear a certain way.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Because when you put time and resources into fancy graphics and trendy webdesign, it gives the impression that you're not trying to just present the facts, but a constructed narrative that's supposed to make things appear a certain way.

Or you just give two ****s about presentation after years of being indoctrinated into the cult of slick powerpoints like pretty much everyone working in a company with more than a hundred employees. Either way.
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Offline Bobboau

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it means this has been sat on for at least as long as it has taken for there to be a fancy site to be put together. and what zoo said. and its more the fact I can't look through the material myself and have to trust in in objectivity of the reporters reporting on it, and reporters have been ****ting on objectivity as a virtue in recent years.
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
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Offline karajorma

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Yeah, you do have to wonder if the person who pays these journalists is mysteriously absent from this website. Hopefully they'll put up all the data later on.
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Offline The E

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Because when you put time and resources into fancy graphics and trendy webdesign, it gives the impression that you're not trying to just present the facts, but a constructed narrative that's supposed to make things appear a certain way.

You do know that there are companies that can be hired to make sites these days? That the newspaper behind this actually does have specialist staff to do it?

And, for ****'s sake, of course these people are presenting a constructed narrative. They're journalists. It's what journalists do, what they have always done. It's what wikileaks et al have also done in the past.

it means this has been sat on for at least as long as it has taken for there to be a fancy site to be put together. and what zoo said. and its more the fact I can't look through the material myself and have to trust in in objectivity of the reporters reporting on it, and reporters have been ****ting on objectivity as a virtue in recent years.

It has been "sat on" for more than a year by this point. If by "sat on" you mean analyzed, investigated and corroborated. You know, because this was leaked to a Newspaper, not a random webserver.

Personally, I find this argument that you can only trust leaks like this if you can examine the source personally to be spurious. Because you, Bobboau, can't. You likely do not have the time to do it, you may not have the skills to do it. You'd be relying on other people's commentary for it, and what exactly makes them trustworthy or objective?
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Offline zookeeper

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You do know that there are companies that can be hired to make sites these days? That the newspaper behind this actually does have specialist staff to do it?

And, for ****'s sake, of course these people are presenting a constructed narrative. They're journalists. It's what journalists do, what they have always done. It's what wikileaks et al have also done in the past.

I don't know why you think I'd disagree with any of that. I used the wording "gives the impression" for a reason.

 

Offline Bobboau

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because everyone with every bias would be mining through it, not just people funding western media.

go here:
https://projects.icij.org/panama-papers/power-players/

after the intro animation is done, look in the upper right hand corner, you will see "Filters>Region>Country" click on country,
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
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This is not at all different from the wikileaks cables which were also screened by selected journalists considered trustworthy and objective before being released to the public. This isn't like that hillary e-mail dump from a while back which, considering how that was marketed, seemed more to pander towards already existing suspicions regarding Hillary's corruption rather then an interest in building a story.

 
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The US is already a tax haven to those who know how to exploit it's systems. They don't need a Panamian law firm to sort trough it all - they have all that stuff inhouse.

 

Offline The E

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You do know that there are companies that can be hired to make sites these days? That the newspaper behind this actually does have specialist staff to do it?

And, for ****'s sake, of course these people are presenting a constructed narrative. They're journalists. It's what journalists do, what they have always done. It's what wikileaks et al have also done in the past.

I don't know why you think I'd disagree with any of that. I used the wording "gives the impression" for a reason.

The point is, you could make the same comment if they had just spun up a plain old HTML 1 site for it. How the site looks is irrelevant for the "it gives the impression that you're not trying to just present the facts, but a constructed narrative that's supposed to make things appear a certain way" part of your argument; Any editorializing, anything that isn't a straight source dump would do it. And even then, as we have seen with wikileaks, there is a lot of influence over the narrative that's going to form on the part of whoever makes these leaks available.

All leaks are suspicious. All leaks are, in some way, constructed narratives from the get go.

because everyone with every bias would be mining through it, not just people funding western media.

go here:
https://projects.icij.org/panama-papers/power-players/

after the intro animation is done, look in the upper right hand corner, you will see "Filters>Region>Country" click on country,
USA is a good boy! USA didn't do nothing wrong!

You do know that not everything in those leaks has been released yet, right? That the full release of all names is expected to be sometime in May?

There are 31 named Journalists from the US mentioned on the ICIJ page as having worked on this data. Several hundred more from countries all over the world. Do you honestly believe that they're going to keep quiet about it when they find prominent US figures in this thing?
« Last Edit: April 04, 2016, 09:09:46 am by The E »
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Offline Bobboau

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all I am saying is I have suspicions.
and yeah, I could see that happening, I have completely lost all faith I ever had in the media.
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
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Offline zookeeper

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The point is, you could make the same comment if they had just spun up a plain old HTML 1 site for it. How the site looks is irrelevant for the "it gives the impression that you're not trying to just present the facts, but a constructed narrative that's supposed to make things appear a certain way" part of your argument; Any editorializing, anything that isn't a straight source dump would do it. And even then, as we have seen with wikileaks, there is a lot of influence over the narrative that's going to form on the part of whoever makes these leaks available.

It wasn't an argument for or against, I was just explaining what sort of pattern-matching I believe goes on in the minds of people who find it suspicious due to how it looks.

I don't really have an opinion on the suspiciousness of the leaks myself, since like most people I basically know nothing about them.

 

Offline Bobboau

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apparently wikileaks might have a copy of the data so I might get my wish.
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 
all I am saying is I have suspicions.
and yeah, I could see that happening, I have completely lost all faith I ever had in the media.

All of the media? How did that happen?

 

Offline Bobboau

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yeah, all of it, from CNN to MSNBC to Fox News. I've just seen them all lie too much over the years, especially when their power or money is threatened.
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 
yeah, all of it, from CNN to MSNBC to Fox News. I've just seen them all lie too much over the years, especially when their power or money is threatened.

NPR? And what's wrong with the Sueddeutsche?

 

Offline Bobboau

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you are seriously implying they don't have their own agendas to push?
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 

Offline The E

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Are you seriously implying that it was ever different?
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns