[StarSlayer]

>>Let's try this again

[karajorma]

On a side topic, we'll probably never know exactly what happened to Boris Johnson's bid to become prime minister (well at least until people start writing memoires) but it's interesting to speculate.

Well that is if you aren't too busy laughing about the delicious irony that it is possible that both Johnson and Gove both wanted to stay in Europe and only joined the Leave campaign in order to have a better chance at a leadership run when Leave lost. Then leave won, Gove backstabbed Boris and now most likely neither will likely get the job (as Teresa May is the one who came out of the whole affair smelling of roses).

[Grizzly]

On a side topic, we'll probably never know exactly what happened to Boris Johnson's bid to become prime minister (well at least until people start writing memoires) but it's interesting to speculate.

On a meta level, I very much intended this to be a freshened up reboot of the brexit thread so I'd say it's not a side topic at all

But I honestly wasn't expecting the Brexit camp to crash so hard. I've seen populists fall like Icaruses before but still.

[The E]

Here is a handy summary of the situation that should clear everything right up:

[Luis Dias]

Given how Greece's issues are still unresolved in the most irresponsible manner, I contest your idea that their procedure is designed to "meet in the middle".

You say this as though Greece has had nothing to contribute to its own problems, which is...at the very least incorrect. Trying to meet them in the middle failed over their own extremism (until their position was too untenable to do anything but beg on their knees and the fact they get screwed in that situation should not surprise anyone), much like trying to meet the UK in the middle would probably fail if Nigel Farange was PM.

Utter bollocks. The talks in 2015 were anything but rational. Greece was found cooking their books and got itself thrown into a depression unlike any seen so far in history by a completely incompetent troika. This blaming **** on the greeks is for gullible people. The matter of the fact is that the Greeks paid their crimes 100 times what they deserved, and the Troika, knowing full well that their medicine was not working, decided to continue to "give it" to the Greeks because of politics, not economic realities. That you still fall for this rethoric is proof enough that humanity is still quite irrational.

I could give you numbers, but I have been doing this for years and I still get these ridiculous answers back so what's the point? If people want to delude themselves into thinking it must be the Greek's fault and not the Eurocrats' fault, then what some conservatives say is all but true in humankind: people want to be lied to. They crave for it.

[Det. Bullock]

Given how Greece's issues are still unresolved in the most irresponsible manner, I contest your idea that their procedure is designed to "meet in the middle".

You say this as though Greece has had nothing to contribute to its own problems, which is...at the very least incorrect. Trying to meet them in the middle failed over their own extremism (until their position was too untenable to do anything but beg on their knees and the fact they get screwed in that situation should not surprise anyone), much like trying to meet the UK in the middle would probably fail if Nigel Farange was PM.

Utter bollocks. The talks in 2015 were anything but rational. Greece was found cooking their books and got itself thrown into a depression unlike any seen so far in history by a completely incompetent troika. This blaming **** on the greeks is for gullible people. The matter of the fact is that the Greeks paid their crimes 100 times what they deserved, and the Troika, knowing full well that their medicine was not working, decided to continue to "give it" to the Greeks because of politics, not economic realities. That you still fall for this rethoric is proof enough that humanity is still quite irrational.

I could give you numbers, but I have been doing this for years and I still get these ridiculous answers back so what's the point? If people want to delude themselves into thinking it must be the Greek's fault and not the Eurocrats' fault, then what some conservatives say is all but true in humankind: people want to be lied to. They crave for it.

Greece for decades had ridiculous public spending (I mean, a pension for the unmarried daughters of state workers?) and a lot of tax evasion, my country was in the same situation between the 80s and the 90s and let's just say getting out of it was as much if not more painful as most of our politicians raised taxes and devalued money instead of cutting spending or forcing tax evaders to pay, we got away with it only because the world economy at the time was in good shape but it came back biting s in the arse years later when Berlusconi preferred to go home rather than make unpopular but necessary decisions (which was useless anyway because he then got condemned as was finally interdicted from politics), today the world economy isn't in a healthy enough state so Greece cannot go away with it and that's pretty much it.

[Luis Dias]

Yeah talk to me when your country is forced to depress itself 30% of its own GDP and still come up with a budget surplus, despite having to give unemployment benefits to 25% people, 60% amongst the young. Yeah, blame "socialist policies". LOL.

so Greece cannot go away with it and that's pretty much it.

You have absolutely zero idea of what was and still is going on, if we are to go by your words here.

[The E]

From my perspective in Germany, Greece got absolutely massacred. Never mind what the actual problems are that the country has, when the largest media outlets in Germany decide that you're an acceptable target for derision, you're toast. That's not meant to absolve Merkel and Schäuble et al from their responsibility for this mess, but it is my firm belief that the situation in Greece would never have escalated as much as it did if the german media as well as our own euroskeptics hadn't decided that the greek are all a bunch of wasteful corrupt good-for-nothings.

[Det. Bullock]

Yeah talk to me when your country is forced to depress itself 30% of its own GDP and still come up with a budget surplus, despite having to give unemployment benefits to 25% people, 60% amongst the young. Yeah, blame "socialist policies". LOL.

so Greece cannot go away with it and that's pretty much it.

You have absolutely zero idea of what was and still is going on, if we are to go by your words here.

Those aren't "socialist" policies, they are the state giving money around to keep the electorate happy, I'm not exactly a "libertarian" but Greece was essentially living on borrowed money which is fine until a crisis hits and the creditors knock at the door.

Italy has been largely in the same situation, only since **** hit the fan already in the 90s we were in a less dangerous position when the crisis hit us in 2008 but even then they had to put a few patsies like Monti to do the dirty job and find someone to blame for the unpopular decisions that had to be made.

And no, I'm not blaming socialist policies, I blame the people who try to exploit them as much as they can, Italy didn't have many deterrents in that regard before the 90s and Greece had much of the same problem until recently, and guess what when that happens deficit becomes a problem.

[Luis Dias]

From my perspective in Germany, Greece got absolutely massacred. Never mind what the actual problems are that the country has, when the largest media outlets in Germany decide that you're an acceptable target for derision, you're toast. That's not meant to absolve Merkel and Schäuble et al from their responsibility for this mess, but it is my firm belief that the situation in Greece would never have escalated as much as it did if the german media as well as our own euroskeptics hadn't decided that the greek are all a bunch of wasteful corrupt good-for-nothings.

This is touching in a very special problem: eurocrats and their fans cannot be annoyed at the level of xenophobia and general inter-european racism that was seen in the whole #Brexit brouhaha when they have been a central source of this problem in the fist place regarding what they called the "PIIGS" countries and, the worst of the worst "kind" of people, with an "atrocious anti-tax culture" that are the Greeks. I still see this pigeonholing today. I still see this scapegoating today. The reason why most people do it is that it is far easier and comforting to believe in this nonsense (and thus, **** those lazy greeks amirite) than to realise the real truth: that the institutions in power were deliberately incompetent and malicious to millions of people who are now starving, with schools reporting starvation in their children at alarming rates.

This truth just seems unbelievable. And so people willfully choose to not believe it, as this thread clearly demonstrates. And yet, it's the bare truth. Why was this possible? Well, for one, the very architecture of the Euro makes it almost inevitable, especially when you have a country that has in all effects been bankrupted but was forbidden to either default or to restructure its unpayable debts. As Schauble stated in the eurogroup in 2015, elections cannot be allowed to change the economic policies applied to Greece. So irrationality remained merely for political reasons. And if no one in Europe cares about the Greeks, because **** those lazy greeks amirite, then nothing will change.

Even when other countries were dragged into the mud, this racist meme continued and is still strong, even amongst otherwise "leftists", which still amazes me to no end.

Until I remember that I'm a mysanthrope at heart, and so everything checks out. Again.

Those aren't "socialist" policies, they are the state giving money around to keep the electorate happy, I'm not exactly a "libertarian" but Greece was essentially living on borrowed money which is fine until a crisis hits and the creditors knock at the door.

Wrong. They borrowed money because it was quite cheap to do so. Private institutions did the same for the exact same reason. They may have behaved "populistically" but they were always being rational. The rates only shot up when Merkel reminded Europe of the Maastricht treaty that there would be no european pool of risk between national banks. Something that was to the letter, but everything against its spirit. The reason why the treaty was written this way was because it was as far as they could have risked it at the 90s. They were with the firm belief, however, that if a crisis came to be, germans and french would come together and change these laws. Alas, they didn't because Merkel saw the risk would rise in the periphery but would lower in the center, which meant a capital flight towards Berlin.

IOW, Merkel played with "Europe" and basically won two major things: A currency which was amazingly cheap for Germans (thus giving them an amazing advantage) and all the capital that fled from the periphery. With all of this new found wealth, she then berated the peripherical economies for not being as successful as Germany. You probably can guess where I thought she could stick her success.

Italy has been largely in the same situation, only since **** hit the fan already in the 90s we were in a less dangerous position when the crisis hit us in 2008 but even then they had to put a few patsies like Monti to do the dirty job and find someone to blame for the unpopular decisions that had to be made.

Not to say that "unpopular" decisions had to be made, but bear in mind that all of this crisis was mostly manufactured so that Berlin could dictate to many countries what kinds of reforms they should enact in their own countries. Bear in mind also that much of this was completely ideological, not "pragmatic" nor "rational".

And no, I'm not blaming socialist policies, I blame the people who try to exploit them as much as they can, Italy didn't have many deterrents in that regard before the 90s and Greece had much of the same problem until recently, and guess what when that happens deficit becomes a problem.

Not much really. Unless you cannot devalue your currency and you don't have any say with the central banks of the currency. The worst that could happen pre-euro was a devaluation, that was always harmful, but in terms of quantity, it's probably one or two orders of magnitude less of pain. In terms of inequality, it was waaaay better. I could go on exactly why, but it's the ****ing internet, go educate yourself already.

[Det. Bullock]

From my perspective in Germany, Greece got absolutely massacred. Never mind what the actual problems are that the country has, when the largest media outlets in Germany decide that you're an acceptable target for derision, you're toast. That's not meant to absolve Merkel and Schäuble et al from their responsibility for this mess, but it is my firm belief that the situation in Greece would never have escalated as much as it did if the german media as well as our own euroskeptics hadn't decided that the greek are all a bunch of wasteful corrupt good-for-nothings.

This is touching in a very special problem: eurocrats and their fans cannot be annoyed at the level of xenophobia and general inter-european racism that was seen in the whole #Brexit brouhaha when they have been a central source of this problem in the fist place regarding what they called the "PIIGS" countries and, the worst of the worst "kind" of people, with an "atrocious anti-tax culture" that are the Greeks. I still see this pigeonholing today. I still see this scapegoating today. The reason why most people do it is that it is far easier and comforting to believe in this nonsense (and thus, **** those lazy greeks amirite) than to realise the real truth: that the institutions in power were deliberately incompetent and malicious to millions of people who are now starving, with schools reporting starvation in their children at alarming rates.

This truth just seems unbelievable. And so people willfully choose to not believe it, as this thread clearly demonstrates. And yet, it's the bare truth. Why was this possible? Well, for one, the very architecture of the Euro makes it almost inevitable, especially when you have a country that has in all effects been bankrupted but was forbidden to either default or to restructure its unpayable debts. As Schauble stated in the eurogroup in 2015, elections cannot be allowed to change the economic policies applied to Greece. So irrationality remained merely for political reasons. And if no one in Europe cares about the Greeks, because **** those lazy greeks amirite, then nothing will change.

Even when other countries were dragged into the mud, this racist meme continued and is still strong, even amongst otherwise "leftists", which still amazes me to no end.

Until I remember that I'm a mysanthrope at heart, and so everything checks out. Again.

Those aren't "socialist" policies, they are the state giving money around to keep the electorate happy, I'm not exactly a "libertarian" but Greece was essentially living on borrowed money which is fine until a crisis hits and the creditors knock at the door.

Wrong. They borrowed money because it was quite cheap to do so. Private institutions did the same for the exact same reason. They may have behaved "populistically" but they were always being rational. The rates only shot up when Merkel reminded Europe of the Maastricht treaty that there would be no european pool of risk between national banks. Something that was to the letter, but everything against its spirit. The reason why the treaty was written this way was because it was as far as they could have risked it at the 90s. They were with the firm belief, however, that if a crisis came to be, germans and french would come together and change these laws. Alas, they didn't because Merkel saw the risk would rise in the periphery but would lower in the center, which meant a capital flight towards Berlin.

IOW, Merkel played with "Europe" and basically won two major things: A currency which was amazingly cheap for Germans (thus giving them an amazing advantage) and all the capital that fled from the periphery. With all of this new found wealth, she then berated the peripherical economies for not being as successful as Germany. You probably can guess where I thought she could stick her success.

Italy has been largely in the same situation, only since **** hit the fan already in the 90s we were in a less dangerous position when the crisis hit us in 2008 but even then they had to put a few patsies like Monti to do the dirty job and find someone to blame for the unpopular decisions that had to be made.

Not to say that "unpopular" decisions had to be made, but bear in mind that all of this crisis was mostly manufactured so that Berlin could dictate to many countries what kinds of reforms they should enact in their own countries. Bear in mind also that much of this was completely ideological, not "pragmatic" nor "rational".

And no, I'm not blaming socialist policies, I blame the people who try to exploit them as much as they can, Italy didn't have many deterrents in that regard before the 90s and Greece had much of the same problem until recently, and guess what when that happens deficit becomes a problem.

Not much really. Unless you cannot devalue your currency and you don't have any say with the central banks of the currency. The worst that could happen pre-euro was a devaluation, that was always harmful, but in terms of quantity, it's probably one or two orders of magnitude less of pain. In terms of inequality, it was waaaay better. I could go on exactly why, but it's the ****ing internet, go educate yourself already.

I live in a country that devalued its money, believe me it's not exactly a bed of roses, it doesn't solve the problems it only hides them.

Also, I don't subscribe to "manifacturing" theories, never attribute to malice what can be more easily explained with stupidity and international economics are heavily infuenced by shortsighted or plain idiotic choices.

And I add that I educated myself enough by reading stuff, I don't really trust the internet to the point of using it to educate myself in economics, given that the field us so full of bull**** conspirationism even in unsuspecting places and nobody wants the blame for their troubles more than an entire nation.

[The E]

I live in a country that devalued its money, believe me it's not exactly a bed of roses, it doesn't solve the problems it only hides them.

A weak Euro is very, very good for Germany. If we were to return to the Mark, it would get valued so high that our exports would tank immediately; Germany has a deeply vested interest in keeping the Euro cheap.

Also, I don't subscribe to "manifacturing" theories, never attribute to malice what can be more easily explained with stupidity and international economics are heavily infuenced by shortsighted or plain idiotic choices.

Again: Keeping the Euro cheap, and thus making german exports cheap, is good for Germany. Nothing shortsighted about it (unless you are one of those idealistic people who believes that we should be strong together and that Europe should be more than just something that ensures prosperity in its center).

[NGTM-1R]

I could give you numbers, but I have been doing this for years and I still get these ridiculous answers back so what's the point? If people want to delude themselves into thinking it must be the Greek's fault and not the Eurocrats' fault, then what some conservatives say is all but true in humankind: people want to be lied to. They crave for it.

They do. That's why they lie to themselves, isn't in Luis? After all, lying to yourself is a necessary part of maintaining a lie in a world where you are literally bombarded with information on any particular subject. The first two bailouts were poorly considered and poorly implemented; the EU wasn't trying to actually fix the problem, and the Greek government through failures in implementation weren't trying to get the most out of what they actually had. The third round and Tsipras' attempt to play poker with the Troika with a literally empty hand was the height of arrogance and the fact Greece suffered for it was entirely predictable.

Or I dunno man maybe just putting all the blame on the EU makes you feel better about it. Curse the EU! It's a big scary thing with no faces! That makes it easy to blame!

2010: Bailouts suck. Let's lie to avoid one by lying. This was a bad plan! Now we need a bailout.
2011: Poor bailout implementation prevents the full effect reaching people. Second bailout. Maybe if we put on enough bandaids it'll cover this arterial wound.
2012: Second bailout is implemented slowly, things continue getting worse.
2013: It got worse, the year.
2014: Things will get better! We'll be good! Nope actually they got worse. A new government is elected. They reject the bailout and attempt to play hardball, threatening to leave the EU.
2015: It turns out you can't play hardball without a bat, or a ball, or any arms. Lacking any cards to play the new government is unable to force a concession from its creditors. Attempting to get some cards to play via public referendum backfires (shades of the current situation). Greece is forced to accept ruinous terms because their government attempted to handle things like Donald Trump would have approved of.

[Luis Dias]

I live in a country that devalued its money, believe me it's not exactly a bed of roses, it doesn't solve the problems it only hides them.

"It's not a bed of roses"

****ing hell, it's like talking to a wall. Perhaps you prefer a devaluation without devaluing the currency? Which basically means all the wages must go down and thus you have to synchronize every single job's wage downward perfectly to match what otherwise would be just a normal currency devaluation? Because that's what is deemed "Austerity", and it's amazingly worse than devaluation. You just showcase your ignorance on these matters. As the other would say, "ignorance is bliss". Be happy, remain ignorant.

Also, I don't subscribe to "manifacturing" theories, never attribute to malice what can be more easily explained with stupidity and international economics are heavily infuenced by shortsighted or plain idiotic choices.

I'm not ascribing pure evilness. The malice was intentional but wasn't directed at "Greece" per se: Greece is merely the sideshow. The real struggle is between Germany and France. But Greeks are the ones who suffer for this.

And I add that I educated myself enough by reading stuff, I don't really trust the internet to the point of using it to educate myself in economics, given that the field us so full of bull**** conspirationism even in unsuspecting places and nobody wants the blame for their troubles more than an entire nation.

Yeah? So why not read the actual people who were actually involved in the situations?

They do. That's why they lie to themselves, isn't in Luis? After all, lying to yourself is a necessary part of maintaining a lie in a world where you are literally bombarded with information on any particular subject. The first two bailouts were poorly considered and poorly implemented; the EU wasn't trying to actually fix the problem, and the Greek government through failures in implementation weren't trying to get the most out of what they actually had. The third round and Tsipras' attempt to play poker with the Troika with a literally empty hand was the height of arrogance and the fact Greece suffered for it was entirely predictable.

Tsipras was someone who didn't have the guts to challenge europe and risk Greece to go down the toilet. I don't blame him. I blame all those who put him in this situation. I blame the eurogroup.

Or I dunno man maybe just putting all the blame on the EU makes you feel better about it. Curse the EU! It's a big scary thing with no faces! That makes it easy to blame!

Quite the reverse. The eurogroup I very much wanted to believe. I very much want to believe that my country went through a Troika bailout and that everything they did had sense, for I paid for it like hell in my life. Facts just don't bear it out. A clear cut analysis just doesn't work. Fact: All the troika's prediction went LOL. All the pressupositions that justified the Troika's plans went absolutely haywire. Fact: they insisted on the same plans despite it being clear that the plans were not working at all as they predicted in every single case where they tried to implement them! Fact: Germany profited from all this shenanigan through currency and capital flight. Fact: Most PIIGS countries had less debt to GDP ratio than many other countries which had no problem whatsoever with their debts. Fact: The eurogroup threatened Varoufakis with a causus belli if he didn't sign the bailout. Fact: after 5 years of trying to implement austerity, Europe is still not growing economically.

I could go on for an eternity.

2010: Bailouts suck. Let's lie to avoid one by lying. This was a bad plan! Now we need a bailout.
2011: Poor bailout implementation prevents the full effect reaching people. Second bailout. Maybe if we put on enough bandaids it'll cover this arterial wound.
2012: Second bailout is implemented slowly, things continue getting worse.
2013: It got worse, the year.
2014: Things will get better! We'll be good! Nope actually they got worse. A new government is elected. They reject the bailout and attempt to play hardball, threatening to leave the EU.
2015: It turns out you can't play hardball without a bat, or a ball, or any arms. Lacking any cards to play the new government is unable to force a concession from its creditors. Attempting to get some cards to play via public referendum backfires (shades of the current situation). Greece is forced to accept ruinous terms because their government attempted to handle things like Donald Trump would have approved of.

False. They never threatened to leave the Euro, let alone the EU. Get your facts straight. And this idea that referendums are always bad and "populist" is quite the new meme amongst the leftists. Drop it. It ain't serious. The greek government was perfectly reasonable in letting the Greek public to vote on the paper that Europe ultimated Greece with. The reason: the greek government was only elected with 35%. They didn't feel they had sufficient authority to sign it. The Greeks voted 60+% to NOT sign it. Tsipras signed it anyway because of the threats he was getting from everyone else. Threats that completely bypassed what was normal and decent from many institutions (ECB, eurogroup, european commission, etc.).

[Grizzly]

Personally feel the greeks were treated too harshly, which is why I am happy to hear a few more social justice quips from various EPs.

I mean... This is a thing that happened.

[Det. Bullock]

****ing hell, it's like talking to a wall.

It's the same for me, I'm utterly fed up with people convinced that the EU is some sort of Evil Empire commanded by people who eat children for breakfast.

[NGTM-1R]

False. They never threatened to leave the Euro, let alone the EU. Get your facts straight.

Going back to the drachma was not only on the table but it was an almost certain end result of rejecting the deal given a lack of other options in that situation, nor would have rejecting the deal and then having to go back to their own currency allowed them to gracefully remain in the EU. Everyone knew that rejection would be an almost inevitable cascade to the Greek exit. Brexit as a term owes its existence to the previous use of Grexit. I suppose, in a world of shadowy adherence to absolute statements only when they're convenient and talking about halo effects when they're convenient, you can make this kind of statement.

Don't expect the rest of us to join you.

(Also you weren't listening to the Finance Minister I guess?)

And this idea that referendums are always bad and "populist" is quite the new meme amongst the leftists.

You need to get your head out of your ass and stop interpreting the words of others through the lense of some kind of grand left-right struggle, and start thinking about them as the words of individual people with whom you've interacted long enough to know that they probably have some kind of nuance and meaning to them that is unique to that person rather than something that is convenient to your grand ideological cause.

In this case, the statement about taking it to the streets is that the streets are not predictable, and cannot be relied upon to back the government. Any attempt to take something to the populace has a risk of backfiring upon the government, regardless of the issue in question and the government's own leanings. The leader of the government in both cases pushed for a vote and campaigned for the losing alternative, leaving themselves high and dry at the end. (Indeed, even Leave has ended up in this boat now.) This has nothing to do with "populism", being "bad", or even "the leftists". You have attempted to cast an observation as old as time as a leftist meme: "Be careful what alternatives you present to another, because they will chose one, and it will not always be the one you desired."

Well okay then, I guess everything is leftist if it's convenient to you.

[AtomicClucker]

Welp, my take on the Grexit was caused by a tourist economy using a strong currency like the Euro. Nations like France, Germany, and even small places like Slovenia have diverse enough economies and investments to keep them chugging along.

Greece? Oh boy, aside from the dearth of idiocy from the various governmental parties... the Greek government likes to spend egregiously without the native institutions and industries to partly back it up- combined with a fundamentally 'soft' economy heavily reliant on tourism and outside funding. The Greek economy didn't have enough vectors to keep it growing internally, and the Euro was a potent, strong currency. Some people think I'm crazy, but I think many economies would benefit from having their own native currency as opposed to the Euro, or allow both to be used, despite the obvious increase in paperwork and bureaucratic wrangling.

What benefits Germany doesn't benefit Greece. What France wants, doesn't benefit Greece's different economic needs... so I guess I'm trying to say the Euro was a fundamental mismatch for a mainly tourist driven economy.

While Britain leaves the EU, I think it's economy is strong enough it can absorb the long term process of renegotiation with the continent - and fundamentally speaking, the Brexit is a big deal, but is not inherently a disaster like propaganda claims. I just find it funny that the blame game has taken on American proportions of mudslinging.

[The E]

Well, this was unexpected. Reportedly, Farage has said that he "can now speak freely" and that "The real me will come out". I wonder what he means by that.

[Enioch]

False. They never threatened to leave the Euro, let alone the EU. Get your facts straight.

Going back to the drachma was not only on the table but it was an almost certain end result of rejecting the deal given a lack of other options in that situation, nor would have rejecting the deal and then having to go back to their own currency allowed them to gracefully remain in the EU. Everyone knew that rejection would be an almost inevitable cascade to the Greek exit. Brexit as a term owes its existence to the previous use of Grexit. I suppose, in a world of shadowy adherence to absolute statements only when they're convenient and talking about halo effects when they're convenient, you can make this kind of statement.

Don't expect the rest of us to join you.

(Also you weren't listening to the Finance Minister I guess?)

May I pitch in as  a Greek? While the wording of the referendum was something along the lines of 'Should the governemtn accept this deal?', it was made abundantly clear by both government representatives and experts that a rejection of the deal would result in a Grexit. Turns out, the government did not go for the exit after all, but it had been made clear that a Grexit would happen and Grexit had even been used as a threat by the Greeks during the negotiations.Even after the referendum, Varoufakis has been recorded drafting a government 'Plan B' for a Grexit (that would involve illegally hacking into tax databases, but that's neither here nor there for the purposes of this discussion)

And this idea that referendums are always bad and "populist" is quite the new meme amongst the leftists.

You need to get your head out of your ass and stop interpreting the words of others through the lense of some kind of grand left-right struggle, and start thinking about them as the words of individual people with whom you've interacted long enough to know that they probably have some kind of nuance and meaning to them that is unique to that person rather than something that is convenient to your grand ideological cause.

In this case, the statement about taking it to the streets is that the streets are not predictable, and cannot be relied upon to back the government. Any attempt to take something to the populace has a risk of backfiring upon the government, regardless of the issue in question and the government's own leanings. The leader of the government in both cases pushed for a vote and campaigned for the losing alternative, leaving themselves high and dry at the end. (Indeed, even Leave has ended up in this boat now.) This has nothing to do with "populism", being "bad", or even "the leftists". You have attempted to cast an observation as old as time as a leftist meme: "Be careful what alternatives you present to another, because they will chose one, and it will not always be the one you desired."

Well okay then, I guess everything is leftist if it's convenient to you.

[/quote]

No argument regarding most of this argument, but it has to be pointed out that, in Greece's case, the government backed the winning option. It had been made clear that the government expected the people to vote 'no'. Even the wording was skewed: the options were 'Do you want us to take this deal? No/Yes' in that order .

It was only after they had won the referendum, that they proceeded to say that 'Brilliant! So you (the people) don't want us to take this deal! We'll now go negotiate another one!' and ended up with a deal that was several billion Euros worse. Because we had no basis on which to negotiate in the first place.