[Bobboau]

Main differences in MP-Ryan's proposal are in default membership and accessibility/visibility to the board.

I do have some concerns with what constitutes a 'drive by' post, because sometimes you just don't have time to keep up with a thread. Or you get sick of it and what ever line of argumentation is going on.

[Scotty]

The correct answer in both of those cases is "don't post" and I thought that was pretty obvious but apparently it takes some thought.

[karajorma]

Because a week or two is not a good judge of anything.  The problem here isn't drastic actions, it's the drastic actions arrived at miss the mark completely.  So we get a dozen people who play nice for two weeks.  Then you open it up, and then other gradually move in, then the ****posting starts, and then suddenly we're back at "this is all garbage burn it to the ground."

Ah, but we have two weeks of relative peace as the baseline to point to and say "That's what it's meant to be like, none of this sarcasm and sniping at each other."

Why don't we try an actual different approach, rather than a rebrand of the same old tired measures that haven't worked multiple times?

Actually on the moderators side there isn't that much of a difference. If you can get the board to agree to

• Warnings given out in Political Discussion shall be done publicly in the thread; they are NOT up for public debate in the thread by the warned party or others (any dispute will be handled by PM)
• Suspension from the Political Discussion board will be for a minimum of one week to allow for a cooling off period.  Multiple temporary suspensions may result in permanent suspension.

I'd be happy to open up the board more. Problem is that if an admin tries that we get months of complaints from users who think we're being too repressive of their freedom of speech. Let me give you an example, get Bobboau to agree with that AND also agree that he would have deserved it had we kicked him out for a week for calling Joshua autistic earlier and you'll have proved your point that forumites will actually accept that. Cause one of the big problems moderators have is getting people to accept their own guilt instead of publicly blaming it on the moderators, starting off forum drama and then leaving. Limiting that was one of the main reasons we decided on a closed board.

And if you really want, I'll even put my money where my mouth is and volunteer to moderate the damn thing.

Good, I was kinda hoping you would.

One additional temporary idea would be a "Doesn't meet the cut" thread stickied in PD, where the moderation team moves, rather than deletes, posts not meeting the content restrictions above as an example.  Purpose would be not so much to shame the user in question as to provide examples to the entire userbase of what not to do.  I'd say a month should probably be sufficient for its existence.

Problem with that is that you can't always chop out a single post from a thread without creating a non sequitur. Usually by the time a moderator gets to an unsuitable post, someone has already replied to it. And the moderators try to avoid deleting post whenever possible anyway.

The idea has possibilites though.

[Scotty]

Actually on the moderators side there isn't that much of a difference. If you can get the board to agree to

• Warnings given out in Political Discussion shall be done publicly in the thread; they are NOT up for public debate in the thread by the warned party or others (any dispute will be handled by PM)

HLP has always had this problem where a significant number of people who receive a warning don't feel like they deserve it.  Warnings shouldn't be up for any debate whatsoever, PM or otherwise, or there will be disputes and debate and general unpleasantness about every single one of them.  Refusal to admit fault or wrongdoing is why most of the people who have been banned from HLP were banned, when it comes right down to it.  I don't see this going any differently.

Which isn't to say I think this is a bad idea, I just think that opening the door to even private disputes is sending the wrong message.  There shouldn't be any.  Take your lumps and get over it.

[karajorma]

Well there have been some past cases of shockingly bad moderation. But that should be in the past now so in general I tend to agree.

Or we can just tell them to PM MP-Ryan.

[Bobboau]

get Bobboau to agree with that AND also agree that he would have deserved it had we kicked him out for a week for calling Joshua autistic earlier

for the record I called him disingenuous.

also good luck on what you just volunteered for MP!

[karajorma]

So if I were to give you a week off for that, you'd agree it was deserved?

Or at least not publicly object to it?

[Bobboau]

for accusing him and you (you were the other person yelling "strawman" at me right?) of being disingenuous, yeah I would dispute that as deserving of punitive action because the two of you were.

but I don't think we need to rehash that subject in this thread again.

[Grizzly]

I'd like to point out again that you can just look up those posts if you follow the instructions in the OP.

[karajorma]

See what I mean about people not being able to take responsibility?

Jesus, you lot are either autistic or utterly disingenuous.

Quite apart from being a pretty loaded statement, either way it's insulting. It certainly doesn't further discussion. Would you say that  in the same way to a friend you're having a drink with? If not, you shouldn't be saying it here on HLP on a political discussion. If so, you're a terrible person and you still shouldn't be saying it here on HLP.

[Bobboau]

I felt like I was having accusations made against me in bad faith.

If you were a friend, and we were in person, I would have phrased it more like "are you ****ing me?  how can you possibly be that full of ****?" because in the scenario we were friends, and friends rip on each other all the ****ing time. I act the same way far less "civilly" than I do here other places on the internet (and no I don't mean 4chan) or in my personal life and **** never gets an eighth as vicious as it does here because I'll tell people to lick my dick and they'll tell me to suck their ass and we won't batt an eye about it. I tell my boss at work to shut the **** up, he laughs. But for some reason here if there is a way to possibly construe something as a personal attack or insult it's hyped to 11.

I guess that makes me a terrible person.

[Grizzly]

But for some reason here if there is a way to possibly construe something as a personal attack or insult it's hyped to 11.

Bobbeau, you have several times now have argued that what you said was okay because you were responding to something you saw as a personal attack. You have doubled down on this even after being repeatedly told that this was not okay, and you continue to do this now. The only one hyping here is you.

For you, here, now, that is a problem. All that is being asked of you, and it has only been asked of you becuase you asked where the line would be drawn, is not to throw around psychological diagnosisis willy-nilly. Why is this so difficult for you to accept?

[karajorma]

Actually, even if you were personally attacked it would still not be okay for you to just attack back. If you're being personally attacked you report it. See why moderation on here is so hard? Everyone decides to take things into their own hands rather than doing what they are meant to actually do.

[Bobboau]

being repeatedly told that this was not okay

By the two people who were attacking me. This is starting to feel like gaslighting.

I was not calling you autistic, that was put there to show how beyond reasonable your interpretation was. I was calling you disingenuous, I think both of you are disingenuous right now.

And the thing you were quoting was a general statement, not about this stupid ****ing argument.

And kara, 1) it's arguing in bad faith not simply an insult, 2) one of the two people involved is an admin, what is reporting going to acomplish?

[karajorma]

And what do you think an action that will get you banned is going to achieve? Apart from forum drama?

[Scotty]

HLP has always had this problem where a significant number of people who receive a warning don't feel like they deserve it.  Warnings shouldn't be up for any debate whatsoever, PM or otherwise, or there will be disputes and debate and general unpleasantness about every single one of them.  Refusal to admit fault or wrongdoing is why most of the people who have been banned from HLP were banned, when it comes right down to it.  I don't see this going any differently.

Which isn't to say I think this is a bad idea, I just think that opening the door to even private disputes is sending the wrong message.  There shouldn't be any.  Take your lumps and get over it.

Not empty quoting myself.

[Bobboau]

just by asserting someone was in the wrong over and over and saying that refusal to accept being in the wrong is the problem, does not make that someone one wrong.

mods/admins who are in the weeds and part of the argument making decisions on who is in the right I think is part of the problem.

[Phantom Hoover]

What this thread is making abundantly clear is that the problem of users getting into protracted rows in a spirit of belligerent bad faith is the real problem and PolDisc isn't going to contain it by itself.

mods/admins who are in the weeds and part of the argument making decisions on who is in the right I think is part of the problem.

literally the entire problem here is your total blindness to the social boundaries of the community

[Grizzly]

being repeatedly told that this was not okay

By the two people who were attacking me. This is starting to feel like gaslighting.

I was not calling you autistic, that was put there to show how beyond reasonable your interpretation was. I was calling you disingenuous, I think both of you are disingenuous right now.

Bobbeau, for the third time: It's really easy to actually follow the instructions in the OP, check the political board, and notice that you've been confusing me with Scotty these past three days.  It's like five clicks. This would only have taken a token amount of effort on your end.

[MP-Ryan]

As a preview of how I'd handle this inane multi-post dispute:

1.  Bobb, regardless of whether you feel like the strawman accusation was just, slinging about the word "autistic" in a derogatory sense is inappropriate and potentially hurtful to the multiple HLP users who have openly stated that they are on the autism spectrum.  Take your lumps, don't do it again.

2.  Everyone:  ****ing drop it already.