[CT27]

How do you think the average GTVA pilot in Sol feels about the war?  While I'm sure there are a range of emotions, I'd imagine overall sentiment is in favor of the GTVA war effort because if all pilots hated what the GTVA was doing morale and the war effort would be a lot worse IMO.

[rubixcube]

I'd imagine the feeling is similar to how American soldiers felt during the Vietnam War.

[Darius]

Difference being that they're outright winning the war, which would help things.

[Gee1337]

I'd imagine the feeling is similar to how American soldiers felt during the Vietnam War.

I don't think that too much of a comparison could be drawn between Vietnam and the Sol war, although the premise is quite interesting.

I would think that the Tevs would be one of two things... either of the mindset of "fighting for their home" or indifferent. I don't think that there would be an out an out support for the UEF from the GTVA side of the node, mainly due to the amount of propaganda that would be fed to them by the GTVA government against the truth that would trickle through. Also, it would be extremely rare for opposing forces to actually talk to each other about the war and why they are fighting and what is said over the comms would be bit part dialogue based on already swayed opinions and a suppression of the truth.

I would like to think that Tev pilots would be a bit more susceptable to the UEF and perhaps even revolt if they learned the truth of the events at the end of Age of Aquarius... the fact that the UEF wanted to welcome the GTVA but were attacked instead, I think would speak volumes for the GTVA members who just wanted a way home!

[Lowane]

My guess would be that it varies from pilot to pilot, depending on how much they do/do not buy into the propaganda. Some probably believe everything the GTVA feeds them. Others might view the war more critical, but see it as an ugly necessity, while others might be completely opposed to it but still consider it their duty to serve.

[-Norbert-]

But can a place that wasn't your family's home for two or more generations really still be a true home for the Tevs?

I think the Vietnam analogy is quite fitting. They were fed propaganda that Ubuntu is evil in some way or the other so I suppose many might actually think they are freeing the "poor Sol inhabitant" from the "corrupt and evil government".... at least initially. But once the bombing of Luna and destruction of civilian transports and freighters comes into play I think even the most narrow-minded pilot might start to wonder about the how just their cause and how legitimate their methods really are.

Of course being raised to obey at all costs with the alternative to obedience being a Shivan genocide will do wonders for pilots doing their job even if they start to have doubts. And we already know that the GTVA rotates pilots in and out of the combat zone, so any pilot who shows signs of getting near to defecting could easily be "re-indoctrinated" while back in the home-systems. I don't really mean indoctrinated literally here, but being exposed to all the propaganda back home, while away from the brutal reality of the front-line might be enough to beat down those surfacing doubts. And if not, the GTVA might do some actual indoctrinating, for which we've seen a few pieces of evidence with the former captain of the Temeraire and the very existence of the facility in which she was turned from pro-UEF into a pro-GTVA fanatic.

[General Battuta]

My guess would be that it varies from pilot to pilot, depending on how much they do/do not buy into the propaganda. Some probably believe everything the GTVA feeds them. Others might view the war more critical, but see it as an ugly necessity, while others might be completely opposed to it but still consider it their duty to serve.

Welcome aboard! I like your analysis of complex systems. Also that's a cool username.

[The Dagger]

Remember those pilots that went undercover to try to release their captured capitain (Xinny, Zero, etc...)? I always remember this line by one of them:
"We're here for our Captain! Nothing more! We know what your Elders do to prisoners!"
I don't know if that's only Tev propaganda but those guys were sure that something ominous awaited their capitain. Enough to risk their lives. I think pilots know that the GTVA is doing something awful, but they believe the Elders are doing something worst.

[Gee1337]

But can a place that wasn't your family's home for two or more generations really still be a true home for the Tevs?

I think the Vietnam analogy is quite fitting. They were fed propaganda that Ubuntu is evil in some way or the other so I suppose many might actually think they are freeing the "poor Sol inhabitant" from the "corrupt and evil government".... at least initially. But once the bombing of Luna and destruction of civilian transports and freighters comes into play I think even the most narrow-minded pilot might start to wonder about the how just their cause and how legitimate their methods really are.

Of course being raised to obey at all costs with the alternative to obedience being a Shivan genocide will do wonders for pilots doing their job even if they start to have doubts. And we already know that the GTVA rotates pilots in and out of the combat zone, so any pilot who shows signs of getting near to defecting could easily be "re-indoctrinated" while back in the home-systems. I don't really mean indoctrinated literally here, but being exposed to all the propaganda back home, while away from the brutal reality of the front-line might be enough to beat down those surfacing doubts. And if not, the GTVA might do some actual indoctrinating, for which we've seen a few pieces of evidence with the former captain of the Temeraire and the very existence of the facility in which she was turned from pro-UEF into a pro-GTVA fanatic.

This is why I find the premise interesting. It depends on the angle you look at it! In the Vietnam war there was a lot of angst about the war from the American public but the soldiers had been brainwashed to fight communism and used derogatory terms to describe the Vietcong. If the GTVA represents the USA, then I wonder what the GTVA propaganda is saying around the GTVA and what the public response is, as so far we have only really seen the war from a UEF point of view, but when you factor in characters like Samuel Bei who turned against the GTVA because of the attack at first contact, that is another reason why I think most Tev pilots with a couple of brain cells to rub together would turn against the GTVA. If the public found out then there would be uproar, and I think that the GTVA would become divided and you would end up with sub-factions like those in Venice Mirror.

"The first casualty when war comes is the truth." - US Senator Hiram Warren Johnson 1918.

[AdmiralRalwood]

...but when you factor in characters like Samuel Bei who turned against the GTVA because of the attack at first contact, that is another reason why I think most Tev pilots with a couple of brain cells to rub together would turn against the GTVA.

And yet we encounter GTVA pilots who very clearly have more than a couple of brain cells to rub together and yet haven't turned against the GTVA. Your example actually seems to indicate that people who have been in contact with Vishnans turn against the GTVA...

[Phantom Hoover]

The length of separation means you can probably draw fruitful analogies with the two Koreas, though obviously neither side is as crazy as the DPRK.

[Lowane]

But can a place that wasn't your family's home for two or more generations really still be a true home for the Tevs?

I think the Vietnam analogy is quite fitting. They were fed propaganda that Ubuntu is evil in some way or the other so I suppose many might actually think they are freeing the "poor Sol inhabitant" from the "corrupt and evil government".... at least initially. But once the bombing of Luna and destruction of civilian transports and freighters comes into play I think even the most narrow-minded pilot might start to wonder about the how just their cause and how legitimate their methods really are.

Of course being raised to obey at all costs with the alternative to obedience being a Shivan genocide will do wonders for pilots doing their job even if they start to have doubts. And we already know that the GTVA rotates pilots in and out of the combat zone, so any pilot who shows signs of getting near to defecting could easily be "re-indoctrinated" while back in the home-systems. I don't really mean indoctrinated literally here, but being exposed to all the propaganda back home, while away from the brutal reality of the front-line might be enough to beat down those surfacing doubts. And if not, the GTVA might do some actual indoctrinating, for which we've seen a few pieces of evidence with the former captain of the Temeraire and the very existence of the facility in which she was turned from pro-UEF into a pro-GTVA fanatic.

This is why I find the premise interesting. It depends on the angle you look at it! In the Vietnam war there was a lot of angst about the war from the American public but the soldiers had been brainwashed to fight communism and used derogatory terms to describe the Vietcong. If the GTVA represents the USA, then I wonder what the GTVA propaganda is saying around the GTVA and what the public response is, as so far we have only really seen the war from a UEF point of view, but when you factor in characters like Samuel Bei who turned against the GTVA because of the attack at first contact, that is another reason why I think most Tev pilots with a couple of brain cells to rub together would turn against the GTVA. If the public found out then there would be uproar, and I think that the GTVA would become divided and you would end up with sub-factions like those in Venice Mirror.

"The first casualty when war comes is the truth." - US Senator Hiram Warren Johnson 1918.

It's very easy to spin that the other way though. A GTVA pilot will see the actions in Sol in a completely different light than the perspective we have in the game. If you believe in something strongly enough, you can justify almost anything, whether it's right or wrong. And even if a GTVA pilot believes what he is doing is wrong, it'd be an easy thing to simply use the end-justify-the-means argument. Yeah, we're blowing away a few civilian transports, yeah we're bombarding innocents but it's all for a greater good and will save more lives in the long run. (My guess is they also care a lot more about saving more GTVA lives in the future than taking some UEF lives in the present)

Besides, let's not pretend the UEF is the complete antithesis to the evil and monstrous GTVA. They have no problem viewing a few hundred of their own people as expandable before the ambush on the Carthage. They also (at least the Fedayeen) have no trouble spacing a few thousand Vasudans and implacting the Gef nor do they flinch when they have to kill some of their own pilots, which is something I haven't seen the GTVA do in the game.

And all that is before we even bring in any potential anti-Ubuntu propaganda. I think someone born in the GTVA, before or after the second Shivan incursion, who believes that the war is necessary to stop annihilation by the Shivans, sees some of the more questionable actions by the UEF and then buys into some or all of the GTVA propaganda makes it easy to see why most pilots won't turn against the GTVA.

My guess would be that it varies from pilot to pilot, depending on how much they do/do not buy into the propaganda. Some probably believe everything the GTVA feeds them. Others might view the war more critical, but see it as an ugly necessity, while others might be completely opposed to it but still consider it their duty to serve.

Welcome aboard! I like your analysis of complex systems. Also that's a cool username.

Thank you Been reading for a while now, but finally wanted to join in on discussions on this absolutely superb story.

[Gee1337]

@ AdmiralRalwood:- The example I'm using is meant to be a reflection of the implication from the Tev propaganda campaign. Hence, those Tev pilots with the brain cells don't know what happened at first contact as the battlegroup that went through the gate became segregated from the rest of the GTVA fleet. Command probably saw them as "corrupted by the truth". .If they knew the truth then would they be so "pro-tev" and not question the leadership of the GTVA? I wasn't really thinking of the Vishnan factor. If course I could be completely wrong by that as there would be those individuals who would quite happily be a bunch of twats, just because they can. Whereas it is of course an integral part of the overall story arc, I was trying to look at this from a pilot's point of view following their respective command, but the point you raise is something worth considering!

@ Lowane:- Yeah, you are bang on tbh! Kind of reinforces the point about the propaganda that the Tevs would be peddling. The best lie is the "half truth", scenario springs to mind.

@ Phantom Hoover:- Good analogy... and probably more accurate than you realise. Although the "crazy factor" could actually be very accurate depending on the perspective. For instance, the Tevs might see the Ubuntu religion as crazy unicorn land whereas it is a way of life for the UEF, a bit like how we see Kim Jong Un as a complete nutter but to his followers he is the best thing since sliced bread. Obviously in real-world terms, there are those in NK who probably fear for their lives... but bringing it back to the UEF, could there be GTVA sympathisers in the UEF who fear for their lives?

[Aesaar]

Gee1337: Do keep in mind that there people on this forum who saw exactly what happened and saw the same things Bei did (because we played AoA), yet still support the GTVA.  Supporting the GTVA doesn't require one to buy into the propaganda.

[Mars]

There is the reasons the GTVA gives their population for the war, their actual reasons, and the UEFs reasons for not surrendering, and their actual reasons.

Most of the extra lore for the game shows that much of the Tev dark ops genuinely believe the war to be humanities only hope. Check out some of the recent posts in the Granite Hunter thread.

[SmashMonkey]

Keep in mind that this is occurring only 20 years after the NTF Rebellion. Mistrust of the GTA government never died away, and only retreated into the background with the defeat of the NTF. Add to that an economy in a craphole and a war started on spurious grounds. If anything, the GTA is powder keg about to be set off by the slightest spark. And that is the role that Ken has been grooming Laporte for.

There very likely are GTVA pilots uncomfortable with the war, but the losing streak of the UEF coupled with the "just taking orders" mentality means that there will be very very few defecting over.


In other words, this is as if Vietnam occurred right after the US Civil War. Imagine the sheer chaos of that.

[-Norbert-]

That's the beautiful thing about BP. No side is absolutely right and no side is absolutely wrong... or at least not to the limited knowledge we have at the moment.

Yes the UEF (pre-war) seemed like an almost perfect Utopia much better than the GTVA, so it would seem reasonable to at least let them be or maybe even remodel Humanity into their image. At best it might even end the threat of the Shivans for good.

BUT if the Shivans are really interested in wiping us out no matter what we do, then this would spell certain doom to Humankind.

And there are many more such matters and layers upon layers in this story.

So who is right and who is wrong? The UEF? The GTVA? Both? Neither? All options are still open and it comes down to opinion and believes.

[Gee1337]

Gee1337: Do keep in mind that there people on this forum who saw exactly what happened and saw the same things Bei did (because we played AoA), yet still support the GTVA.  Supporting the GTVA doesn't require one to buy into the propaganda.

Fair comment! I never really thought that anyone would really support the GTVA after the attack on the UEF at the end... as to me it seemed a bit unprovoked! I do need to play through War In Heaven again as there is probably most definitely something I missed in the text which explains it better and it has been a while. I suppose I let my personal opinion get the better of me on this by thinking, "WTF are the GTVA attacking the UEF for when they stated at first contact that they wanted peace?" I tend to think "cause and effect" and for me the whole cause of the war was essentially the events at the end of AoA. If the GTVA had not attacked, would the war be happening? My interpretation of it is that the GTVA were working of sketchy information at best and why did they not pursue a more diplomatic solution?

Saying that though, if a more diplomatic solution had been made then we wouldn't have a great mod to play!

[Phantom Hoover]

The GTVA knew exactly what they were doing. Digging through the background material is fun, and will answer many of your questions. Have you gone through the library yet?

[CT27]

While there are probably lots more (each individual pilot probably has his/her own thoughts), I came up with a general range:

1-"Kill the Buntus!  Blood for Admiral Steele!"


2-"These Sol people should just roll over.  Can't they realize they're holding back humanity against a possible Shivan return?"


3-"Maybe it'd be nice if there could have been a more diplomatic solution, but we're doing this for the greater good."


4-"This war doesn't seem right; why does humanity have to fight among itself like this?  Oh well, to be prepared for the Shivans this is a necessary evil."


5-"I don't like this at all, it feels like we're the bad guys here.  Darn it, I need the paycheck though for my kid's future college and I don't want to be labeled a traitor."


6-"I'm looking for the first chance to defect."