Author Topic: technopredator's tangent  (Read 3242 times)

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Offline technopredator

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technopredator's tangent
I have questions please:
1) Why .com is it for profit? why not .org? you can get .tk for free
2) Why not making my suggestion here: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=89121.msg1777697#msg1777697
3) Why this installer doesn't recognize a manually installed FS2O, MediaVPs_2014 and wxLauncher?

 

Offline AdmiralRalwood

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Re: technopredator's tangent
I have questions please:
1) Why .com is it for profit? why not .org? you can get .tk for free
Lots of not-for-profit things have .com URLs.

2) Why not making my suggestion here: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=89121.msg1777697#msg1777697
Nobody has a comment or constructive criticism to my suggestion, is it out of place or too far fetched? I think not.

We already answered your question.  If you want a tool that does exactly what the FSO Installer does, by all means use the FSO Installer.

3) Why this installer doesn't recognize a manually installed FS2O, MediaVPs_2014 and wxLauncher?
It does, if you tell it to install them to the place where they're already installed; part of the installation process is seeing if the file is already there, and if so, checking its hash to see if it needs to be redownloaded or not.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Codethulhu GitHub wgah'nagl fhtagn.

schrödinbug (noun) - a bug that manifests itself in running software after a programmer notices that the code should never have worked in the first place.

When you gaze long into BMPMAN, BMPMAN also gazes into you.

"I am one of the best FREDders on Earth" -General Battuta

<Aesaar> literary criticism is vladimir putin

<MageKing17> "There's probably a reason the code is the way it is" is a very dangerous line of thought. :P
<MageKing17> Because the "reason" often turns out to be "nobody noticed it was wrong".
(the very next day)
<MageKing17> this ****ing code did it to me again
<MageKing17> "That doesn't really make sense to me, but I'll assume it was being done for a reason."
<MageKing17> **** ME
<MageKing17> THE REASON IS PEOPLE ARE STUPID
<MageKing17> ESPECIALLY ME

<MageKing17> God damn, I do not understand how this is breaking.
<MageKing17> Everything points to "this should work fine", and yet it's clearly not working.
<MjnMixael> 2 hours later... "God damn, how did this ever work at all?!"
(...)
<MageKing17> so
<MageKing17> more than two hours
<MageKing17> but once again we have reached the inevitable conclusion
<MageKing17> How did this code ever work in the first place!?

<@The_E> Welcome to OpenGL, where standards compliance is optional, and error reporting inconsistent

<MageKing17> It was all working perfectly until I actually tried it on an actual mission.

<IronWorks> I am useful for FSO stuff again. This is a red-letter day!
* z64555 erases "Thursday" and rewrites it in red ink

<MageKing17> TIL the entire homing code is held up by shoestrings and duct tape, basically.

 

Offline Goober5000

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Re: technopredator's tangent
What AdmiralRalwood said.  Also, a feature is under development that will recognize existing installations if you decide to delete fsoinstaller.properties, but it is fairly complex and will require significant work.

 

Offline technopredator

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Re: technopredator's tangent
.com is for commercial and .org for non-profit organization and should be done properly

No you actually didn't answer my question, you think you did, not the way I asked, you answered something related to it.
Quote
I'd like to request to each file gets a filename.sha file with its SHA-1 hash value and all of the files of this release to be compressed in a .7z file, and this file would have a .sha file too, so you'd add 2 links to the release for convenience to check integrity without too much trouble:

1) release_sha-1.7z
2) release_sha-1.7z.sha
Why this can't be done automatically as part of the installation verification process? it seems logical to me and very secure integrity-wise.


And no, it doesn't the way it's suppose to do it, it should start searching for installations on start up, and then ask you what to do, that's a more convenient way to do it and the proper IMO, so maybe the installer doesn't recognize my installation properly and starts it's own download and corrupts both of them, or just wastes a lot of bandwidth re-downloading FS2 build and the rest, that's why you search and recognize first to make sure yo won't be committing resources in case the recognition fails for some reason, so you know the recognition is done properly, because from the new user perspective I would not try to install something that is already installed, why would I? just to see if the installer recognizes it and it doesn't delete it and starts over? I don't know what the installer is going to do and it doesn't says so, so this is a flaw. An early recognition also helps having the calculation of the space required for other campaigns/mods done right with anticipation to see which ones a user would download. Also it'd be a nice addition to have the option for the installer to search on the local hard-drive for campaigns/mods files and download files if the campaigns/mods are incomplete.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2015, 01:57:36 am by technopredator »

 

Offline The E

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Re: technopredator's tangent
.com is for commercial and .org for non-profit organization and should be done properly

The rest of the Internet doesn't seem to care that much, why should we?

Also, if we should do things properly, why would we use a .tk address, as you earlier suggested? We're not based in Tokelau, after all.

Quote
No you actually didn't answer my question, you think you did, not the way I asked, you answered something related to it.
Quote
I'd like to request to each file gets a filename.sha file with its SHA-1 hash value and all of the files of this release to be compressed in a .7z file, and this file would have a .sha file too, so you'd add 2 links to the release for convenience to check integrity without too much trouble:

1) release_sha-1.7z
2) release_sha-1.7z.sha
Why this can't be done as part of the installation verification? it seems logical to me and very secure integrity-wise.

The checksums the installer uses are already part of the mod manifest files that a mod creator has to write in order to get the mod handled by the installer. Why should we add 2 more files that only hold information that is already recorded in a more convenient location? It's just added overhead for no actual benefit.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline technopredator

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Re: technopredator's tangent
Why should you? you wrote it yourself, it is proper, why you ask something you know the answer to? .tk is free but i think they don't store files for download just webpages, a .org might have a monthly fee if money is an issue, but probably you'll find some free file hosting too, like freefilehosting.net, files stay up as long they're downloaded.

If it's only 1 file you don't need to 7-zip it so you don't need the second file unless you want double integrity security. In case of several .vp/.7z/.zip/.rar files you'd need 1 .sha for each, so unifying all those .sha into a .7z file and having a .sha for it, I think it's a bit redundant but double integrity security always is, and since it's compressed and unified it'd be a little faster to download and handle and it's location it's no more convenient than any of the checksum files since the .7z file could be in the same folder. The utility it's to know in advance that if the .7z file integrity fails, probably the the Internet connection is unstable/corrupted and probably the .7z file it's corrupted, so you redownload it and check again, if it passes you check the .vp/.7z/.zip/.rar campaign/mod files but you'd know that they're probably corrupted, so this is a early transmission quality check and I don't see it as a big overhead in current computers, like a guarantee/originality/authenticity seal/logo/code for a package, I think in the long run everyone would benefit from it, FS2O and campaign/mod developers and take it as a quality assurance for their work making them happier developers and modders, even users .
« Last Edit: February 26, 2015, 02:49:24 am by technopredator »

 

Offline AdmiralRalwood

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Re: technopredator's tangent
:wtf:

I don't know why you're on about .tk domains now, but the rest of your posts seems to be "the installer could be better", to which I can only say yes, it could be. Are you volunteering to do the coding necessary to make it better? Features don't write themselves.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Codethulhu GitHub wgah'nagl fhtagn.

schrödinbug (noun) - a bug that manifests itself in running software after a programmer notices that the code should never have worked in the first place.

When you gaze long into BMPMAN, BMPMAN also gazes into you.

"I am one of the best FREDders on Earth" -General Battuta

<Aesaar> literary criticism is vladimir putin

<MageKing17> "There's probably a reason the code is the way it is" is a very dangerous line of thought. :P
<MageKing17> Because the "reason" often turns out to be "nobody noticed it was wrong".
(the very next day)
<MageKing17> this ****ing code did it to me again
<MageKing17> "That doesn't really make sense to me, but I'll assume it was being done for a reason."
<MageKing17> **** ME
<MageKing17> THE REASON IS PEOPLE ARE STUPID
<MageKing17> ESPECIALLY ME

<MageKing17> God damn, I do not understand how this is breaking.
<MageKing17> Everything points to "this should work fine", and yet it's clearly not working.
<MjnMixael> 2 hours later... "God damn, how did this ever work at all?!"
(...)
<MageKing17> so
<MageKing17> more than two hours
<MageKing17> but once again we have reached the inevitable conclusion
<MageKing17> How did this code ever work in the first place!?

<@The_E> Welcome to OpenGL, where standards compliance is optional, and error reporting inconsistent

<MageKing17> It was all working perfectly until I actually tried it on an actual mission.

<IronWorks> I am useful for FSO stuff again. This is a red-letter day!
* z64555 erases "Thursday" and rewrites it in red ink

<MageKing17> TIL the entire homing code is held up by shoestrings and duct tape, basically.

 

Offline The E

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Re: technopredator's tangent
Why should you? you wrote it yourself, it is proper, why you ask something you know the answer to? .tk is free but i think they don't store files for download just webpages, a .org might have a monthly fee if money is an issue, but probably you'll find some free file hosting too, like freefilehosting.net, files stay up as long they're downloaded.

We already have all the filehosting capability we need. We do not need to register new domains. What you posted earlier sounded like some sort of demand or recommendation that we shouldn't use a .com domain for fsoinstaller.com "because it isn't proper", then you turn around to recommend a .tk domain because it's free (despite such use not being "proper" as per your initial complaint). It's kinda hard to understand the thought process behind this.

Quote
If it's only 1 file you don't need to 7-zip it so you don't need the second file unless you want double integrity security. In case of several .vp/.7z/.zip/.rar files you'd need 1 .sha for each, so unifying all those .sha into a .7z file and having a .sha for it, I think it's a bit redundant but double integrity security always is, and since it's compressed and unified it'd be a little faster to download and handle and it's location it's no more convenient than any of the checksum files since the .7z file could be in the same folder. The utility it's to know in advance that if the .7z file integrity fails, probably the the Internet connection is unstable/corrupted and probably the .7z file it's corrupted, so you redownload it and check again, if it passes you check the .vp/.7z/.zip/.rar campaign/mod files but you'd know that they're probably corrupted, so this is a early transmission quality check and I don't see it as a big overhead in current computers, like a guarantee/originality/authenticity seal/logo/code for a package, I think in the long run everyone would benefit from it, FS2O and campaign/mod developers and take it as a quality assurance for their work making them happier developers and modders, even users .

The simple fact of the matter is that your scheme does not substantially improve anything. It doesn't guard against corrupted downloads, because we can only verify if a download was succesful after it has finished. In addition, if downloading a small file likely smaller than a 100 kbyte succeeds, we cannot make any inferences about downloads of 1 Mbyte, 100 Mbyte, or several Gbyte. In other words, being able to successfully download those checksum files does not give us the ability to make a prediction about whether or not the full download will go smoothly.

The way we currently do this, by downloading the archives and unpacking them as streams, then checking whether what we unpacked was correct and trying to reacquire it again later in case it isn't, is already all the functionality you want, without the added administrative overhead of creating a bunch of files that only hold duplicate information to what the installer already has.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline Goober5000

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Re: technopredator's tangent
Technopredator, before you start arguing so strongly for your favorite implementation design, you should learn and understand the current implementation design as well as whether and how it satisfies your requirements.  Case in point: before I started rewriting the FSO Installer, I carefully studied Turey's code and the design decisions he made.  This is despite the fact that it was universally agreed that Turey's installer was in need of improvement.

One detail that may not be immediately apparent is that the installer extracts files from archive as it downloads them.  It doesn't download the archive first and extract it locally.  This approach saves time because the individual files in the archive can be skipped if not needed (all that is downloaded are the header bytes for each section), and because the process is one-step instead of two-step.  This also means that there is no benefit to computing a hash for the entire archive file.

 

Offline technopredator

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Re: technopredator's tangent
We already have all the filehosting capability we need. We do not need to register new domains. What you posted earlier sounded like some sort of demand or recommendation that we shouldn't use a .com domain for fsoinstaller.com "because it isn't proper", then you turn around to recommend a .tk domain because it's free (despite such use not being "proper" as per your initial complaint). It's kinda hard to understand the thought process behind this.

Perhaps you missed it:
.tk is free, a .org might have a monthly fee if money is an issue
Which of course implies that if you're going to use the wrong domain at least do it with something that correlates your work as non-profit.

Another reason to not use a .com, is that it probably does have a fee because such domain is popular and most if not all domain registrars sell them, maybe it's possible to find a .org that it's free and I was suggesting change of domain not adding a new 1, it'd be inefficient. ALso I read somewhere that you had copyright issues in the past and you were about to lose the license to keep developing  FS2O because of mistakes similar to this 1 that gave the impression that you were trying to profit from it, for sure a .com would at least bring the issue back and raise some questions about hard-light.net intentions, which I thought it was obvious trying to avoid them, but looks like you all have forgotten about this.


Quote
The simple fact of the matter is that your scheme does not substantially improve anything. It doesn't guard against corrupted downloads, because we can only verify if a download was succesful after it has finished. In addition, if downloading a small file likely smaller than a 100 kbyte succeeds, we cannot make any inferences about downloads of 1 Mbyte, 100 Mbyte, or several Gbyte. In other words, being able to successfully download those checksum files does not give us the ability to make a prediction about whether or not the full download will go smoothly.

I never wrote it would, just added integrity check.  I never wrote it would guard against corrupted files completely but just somewhat by giving a early warning.  Actually we can make any kind of inferences about it, of course there isn't any guarantee but there isn't any method to do the job except the NIC TCP/UDP checksums which is not a guarantee neither, but it's a bit of a help against nothing we have today, and there is yet to be invented a method to allows you to make the inferences you suggest, and since it's a bit of a help and I think not much overhead in anyway, it wouldn't hurt.

Quote
The way we currently do this, by downloading the archives and unpacking them as streams, then checking whether what we unpacked was correct and trying to reacquire it again later in case it isn't, is already all the functionality you want, without the added administrative overhead of creating a bunch of files that only hold duplicate information to what the installer already has.

You should have started by clarifying this, if that's the way the installer work then my suggestion is out of place, and don't tell me what I want to not, you don't know that, perhaps you meant: that's all the functionality you'd need from the installer to deliver a fully functioning game.

@Goober5000: you should have started by clarifying the way the installer worked and I wouldn't had carried on trying to push my idea and yes I should have tried to learn this if it were handy, which it's not.

 

Offline Goober5000

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Re: technopredator's tangent
Another reason to not use a .com blah blah blah
We are not going to switch domains when we have a perfectly fine domain right now.  The installer has been hosted there since 2006 and there is no point in arbitrarily moving to a new domain.  Furthermore the .tk TLD didn't have a terribly good reputation in 2006.

Quote
You should have started by clarifying this, if that's the way the installer work then my suggestion is out of place, and don't tell me what I want to not, you don't know that, perhaps you meant: that's all the functionality you'd need from the installer to deliver a fully functioning game.

@Goober5000: you should have started by clarifying the way the installer worked and I wouldn't had carried on trying to push my idea and yes I should have tried to learn this if it were handy, which it's not.
Your entire discussion has been argumentative and accusatory.  You are essentially taking every one of your points for granted, from the .tk domain to the method of validating files, and demanding that we either conform to your expectations or justify in detail why we are doing thing differently.  You shouldn't be surprised that we are less than forthcoming.

To top it off you are now blaming me for your own terrible behavior.  Give me one good reason why I shouldn't monkey you for several days so you can cool down.

 

Offline technopredator

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Re: technopredator's tangent
We are not going to switch domains when we have a perfectly fine domain right now.  The installer has been hosted there since 2006 and there is no point in arbitrarily moving to a new domain.  Furthermore the .tk TLD didn't have a terribly good reputation in 2006.

Probably back in 2006 it was just like the mess you people still think the Internet is, but I have seen some domains have changed to more proper ones, some games that were .org clearly were for-profit so they have changed to .com, because that's the true nature of their website, so in that spirit I was making my suggestion.

Quote
Your entire discussion has been argumentative and accusatory.  You are essentially taking every one of your points for granted, from the .tk domain to the method of validating files, and demanding that we either conform to your expectations or justify in detail why we are doing thing differently.  You shouldn't be surprised that we are less than forthcoming.

To top it off you are now blaming me for your own terrible behavior.  Give me one good reason why I shouldn't monkey you for several days so you can cool down.

Wrong, that's what you think it has been, I've been fairly reasonable and patience with the closed minded attitude of you and E IMO, trying to be sensible about your POV and express mine clearly to avoid confusion, I'm not taking any of them for granted but defending their validity and usefulness. I never demanded anything, that's what you assume I did, which is another mistake from you, and I thought we were just discussing a possibility and now here you're somehow very intimidated by my logical defense of my perspective and exaggerating things out of proportion by victimizing yourself to the point of threatening me with a ban if I don't start begging you for forgiveness, trying to intimidate me to have the moral highground and be able to win and finish the discussion; these can only come from cowards and weaklings that hide behind authority and power, that probably wouldn't do it in person, to bully people that simply try to expose an idea for discussion in a public forum, which is the nature of the word forum. That I was grateful in previous posts, doesn't mean you have a permanent moral highground over me and that I won't see the BS behind your childish tantrum, because I seek truth, logic and wisdom, and you don't have those in your words.

I now see once more the justified complains of many people that felt bullied when they were just trying to share some thought and ideas; looks like the many compliments and thanks you have recieved over the years have gone up your head and now you think of yourself as of omniscient perfect human beings incapable of error, please... If you didn't want to discuss it, it'd had been easier to write so and don't write the offensive and dumb assumptions you concluded on your own out of ignorance and convenience.

If you want to ban me go ahead and make it permanent if you want, for sure I won't miss the moronic childish behavior of you and the E and some other "VIP" people here, I wasn't even going to say thank you but I wanted to give this another try and I'm now convinced is just not worth to log in, just come as a guest, download the cool stuff and close the tab, because that's how important are all of you and this website to me, just another tab on my browser.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 03:58:35 am by technopredator »

 

Offline Kazan

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Re: technopredator's tangent
Guys, Guys, everyone chill out. 

Goober, you are being slightly provocative

technopredator, stop acting like i did at age 18
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Offline Goober5000

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Re: technopredator's tangent
Here's some freshly baked logs:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/0393h1n2nh19fbh/fsoi-logs-20150227.7z
Thanks, that pinpointed it. :)  I'll have a new build later.


Wrong, that's what you think it has been, I've been fairly reasonable and patience with the closed minded attitude of you and E IMO, trying to be sensible about your POV and express mine clearly to avoid confusion, I'm not taking any of them for granted but defending their validity and usefulness. I never demanded anything, that's what you assume I did, which is another mistake from you, and I thought we were just discussing a possibility and now here you're somehow very intimidated by my logical defense of my perspective and exaggerating things out of proportion by victimizing yourself to the point of threatening me with a ban if I don't start begging you for forgiveness, trying to intimidate me to have the moral highground and be able to win and finish the discussion; these can only come from cowards and weaklings that hide behind authority and power, that probably wouldn't do it in person, to bully people that simply try to expose an idea for discussion in a public forum, which is the nature of the word forum. That I was grateful in previous posts, doesn't mean you have a permanent moral highground over me and that I won't see the BS behind your childish tantrum, because I seek truth, logic and wisdom, and you don't have those in your words.

I now see once more the justified complains of many people that felt bullied when they were just trying to share some thought and ideas; looks like the many compliments and thanks you have recieved over the years have gone up your head and now you think of yourself as of omniscient perfect human beings incapable of error, please... If you didn't want to discuss it, it'd had been easier to write so and don't write the offensive and dumb assumptions you concluded on your own out of ignorance and convenience.
Where did this philosophical posturing come from?  I'm not trying to intimidate you and you sure don't intimidate me.  I wonder why you suddenly decided to invent all sorts of motivations that you think I have.  Are you sure you're not projecting your own thought processes onto mine?  After all, throughout this discussion, I'm not the one who has shown a tendency to make demands and dismiss his opponent's explanations.

Quote
If you want to ban me go ahead and make it permanent if you want, for sure I won't miss the moronic childish behavior of you and the E and some other "VIP" people here, I wasn't even going to say thank you but I wanted to give this another try and I'm now convinced is just not worth to log in, just come as a guest, download the cool stuff and close the tab, because that's how important are all of you and this website to me, just another tab on my browser.
If I wanted to ban you I would have done it already.

It's informative to hear that this website and this community (all of us? really?) matter so little to you, but I don't see how that has any bearing on what features the Installer has or doesn't have.  If you don't want to log in any more, you don't have to.  Nobody is forcing you to come here.

 

Offline Aesaar

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Re: technopredator's tangent
If you want to ban me go ahead and make it permanent if you want, for sure I won't miss the moronic childish behavior of you and the E and some other "VIP" people here, I wasn't even going to say thank you but I wanted to give this another try and I'm now convinced is just not worth to log in, just come as a guest, download the cool stuff and close the tab, because that's how important are all of you and this website to me, just another tab on my browser.


But yeah, your walls of text really show how little you care.  Truly apathetic.

 

Offline technopredator

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Re: technopredator's tangent
@Goober5000: Keep picking only the parts of the conversation where you can have a winning posture and ignoring how I debunked all the BS you wrote, typical coward weakling childish hiding behind authority and power, you for sure are defensive and very intimidated by my posts without any reason from me doing so, so yeah, it's no projection is just your scared little ass writing out of fear, when you have the maturity to face truth and the courage to discuss like an adult and admit errors when they're pointed out maybe I'll discuss with you again.

 

Offline Spoon

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Re: technopredator's tangent
Bro, Don't get mad, or the consequences are revenging you.
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: technopredator's tangent
technopredator, stop acting like i did at age 18
Wow, you're right, this really is bringing back memories. :D

 

Offline Aesaar

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Re: technopredator's tangent
@Goober5000: Keep picking only the parts of the conversation where you can have a winning posture and ignoring how I debunked all the BS you wrote, typical coward weakling childish hiding behind authority and power, you for sure are defensive and very intimidated by my posts without any reason from me doing so, so yeah, it's no projection is just your scared little ass writing out of fear, when you have the maturity to face truth and the courage to discuss like an adult and admit errors when they're pointed out maybe I'll discuss with you again.


 

Offline Flipside

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Re: technopredator's tangent
Wow, we haven't had one of these for a while....