Author Topic: Vishnans as "the bad guys"  (Read 3487 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline An4ximandros

  • 210
  • Transabyssal metastatic event
Vishnans as "the bad guys"
It suddenly hit me, as I was casually making a pseudo-sandwich, that perhaps the Vishnans were the problem all along.

In the Intel Database one can find an entry citing the Fermi paradox; poetically alluding that we should inhabit a bazaar of wonders, but there is nothing.
We know that the Brahmen died and made the Vishnans (if the Shivans can be trusted to speak the truth, they might not even know the concept of a lie).

What if that was their greatest blunder? Trying to preserve things only deemed worthwhile by the terminal protocol.
Never permitting anything to reach a point where it had to mutate and evolve, culling the previous generation in a natural selection.
Instead of selecting the most desirable traits that should be preserved, the Vishnans demand a pure race, one that should reach an unattainable standard in which failure is never tolerated.
And that is why there is nothing; nothing can ever reach enlightenment because they intervene, they destroy.

 

Offline Luis Dias

  • 211
Re: Vishnans as "the bad guys"
"nothing" is a deep philosophical concept. What does it mean? Clearly the freespace universe is not filled with nothing. As far as we can tell, our own real universe is probably a lot emptier than that one. The mere existence of the Vishnans is a refutation of the existence of this nothing. So I'd guess that what the intel is ranting about or complaining about is how the universe is lacking density of species. It's a desert, mostly. So what is a desert? It's not nothing. It's perhaps the end result of an ecological disaster, a post-apocalyptic scenario, filled with ruins. We know the words for this apocalypse, they are written in the fiction within BP. The Vishnans are not "at fault", I don't think, I would say rather that they are the current status quo, the current state of this universe.

 
Re: Vishnans as "the bad guys"
My reading of the Vishnans, which at this stage seems so obvious as to be trite, is that they aren't some cosmic dual or rival to the Shivans with all the implied teleology lingering in the notion, but that they're just the result of intelligent life surviving and adapting to a universe in which the Shivans exist. All trajectories for a species are either terminal or lead to the same common meta-sentience, except perhaps for whatever unusual liminal circumstances humanity has found itself in.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline Gee1337

  • 27
  • Sh!tlord/Human Garbage
Re: Vishnans as "the bad guys"
It will be interesting to see where the BP writers take the concept.

The best I can liken the Shivans and the Vishnans too is Babylon 5's Shadows and Vorlons. Maybe the Brahmen aren't actually dead but went beyond the rim and will return and be the equivalent to a Lorien!

Also, if you look into Hinduism you might get an idea that there is a "holy" trinity between the three races (although Hinduism actually has five primary gods). With hinduism having five gods, maybe the Vasudans and the Terrans are the other two entities required for the universe to figure itself out. The ancients were probably an experiment created by one of the "super races" to see if they could be the answer to the ultimate balance that the guardians sought. Possibly a creation of the Vishnans, but seen as the wrong path by the Shivans.

My interpretation of the two "super" races is that they are the guardians of the galaxy which had an understanding with one another, but have ultimately lost their way in their own philosophies, which is essentially the same as B5. My interpretation of the universe in both BP and real life, is that the universe is all about balance. Hence, without the bad you can't have the good, 1 and 0, yes and no, positive and negative etc... Balance to me is the defining "neutron" (for lack of a better word) or the sword of truth cutting the middle of the two extremes.

So, to say one or the other are the "baddies" I believe does not accurately reflect what is going on in the BP universe. This is rather a story of survival against what appears to be overwhelming odds. Maybe the Sol VS GTVA war is a parody of what the Shivans and Vishnans have already been through which is why both races could potentially deem Terrans as a failed experiment to be "black shelved", but the Terrans have to prove to both races that they are willing and will fight for our survival to cement our place in the cosmic balance, and that is the test that we must pass in order to do so.

In "Age of Aquarius" we saw the GTVA's fleet following the Vishnan example of preserving, but ultimately they also showed the Shivan way of destroying when they reached Sol. Good and bad is just a matter of opinion.
I do not feel... I think!

 

Offline An4ximandros

  • 210
  • Transabyssal metastatic event
Re: Vishnans as "the bad guys"
The thing about the Vishnans is that they intervened rather than allow humanity to enlighten itself "naturally"; they subverted the Ubuntu movement when it was in its infancy to reach their own goal: Assimilation.

The Shivans have a much simpler alternative: If they cannot find peace themselves, races they are culled; what makes me wonder though, is why did the Shivans let the Ancients grow a multi-galactic empire before culling them? Did the Vishnans told them not to cull in hopes they would reach enlightenment on their own and realized too late that was a mistake?

 

Offline Gee1337

  • 27
  • Sh!tlord/Human Garbage
Re: Vishnans as "the bad guys"
I thought the answer to that lied within the first Freespace game.

IIRC, in the cutscenes the Ancients described themselves as conquerors before the Shivans entered the fray. Therefore, the Ancients were upsetting the natural process of enlightenment by interfering with the affairs of other races via conquest. This would be deemed as unacceptable to the Shivans and prior to their arrival, they could have been discussing the affair with the Vishnans and maybe even the Brahmans before deciding to cull.

In all the theorised Shivan philosophy, the real question for me is why the Shivans decided to continue the cull of the GTVA after the Terrans and Vasudans had essentially made peace with one another?

Do the Shivans fear the potential power of younger community strength?

Do the Shivans fear that they might be replaced?

Do the Shivans fear that they might have no role in the cosmic process if Brahman or Vishnan experimentation succeeds?

In response to your statement about intervening in the natural enlightenment process, maybe that supports the theory that both these "guardian" races have lost their way! Could the Vasudans and Terrans be the ultimate alternative to the Vishnans and Shivans?
I do not feel... I think!

 

Offline AdmiralRalwood

  • 211
  • The Cthulhu programmer himself!
    • Skype
    • Steam
    • Twitter
Re: Vishnans as "the bad guys"
In all the theorised Shivan philosophy, the real question for me is why the Shivans decided to continue the cull of the GTVA after the Terrans and Vasudans had essentially made peace with one another?
If the Shivans had abruptly broken off all hostilities when the Terrans and Vasudans made peace with each other (solely because of the threat posed by the Shivans), how long would that peace have lasted?
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Codethulhu GitHub wgah'nagl fhtagn.

schrödinbug (noun) - a bug that manifests itself in running software after a programmer notices that the code should never have worked in the first place.

When you gaze long into BMPMAN, BMPMAN also gazes into you.

"I am one of the best FREDders on Earth" -General Battuta

<Aesaar> literary criticism is vladimir putin

<MageKing17> "There's probably a reason the code is the way it is" is a very dangerous line of thought. :P
<MageKing17> Because the "reason" often turns out to be "nobody noticed it was wrong".
(the very next day)
<MageKing17> this ****ing code did it to me again
<MageKing17> "That doesn't really make sense to me, but I'll assume it was being done for a reason."
<MageKing17> **** ME
<MageKing17> THE REASON IS PEOPLE ARE STUPID
<MageKing17> ESPECIALLY ME

<MageKing17> God damn, I do not understand how this is breaking.
<MageKing17> Everything points to "this should work fine", and yet it's clearly not working.
<MjnMixael> 2 hours later... "God damn, how did this ever work at all?!"
(...)
<MageKing17> so
<MageKing17> more than two hours
<MageKing17> but once again we have reached the inevitable conclusion
<MageKing17> How did this code ever work in the first place!?

<@The_E> Welcome to OpenGL, where standards compliance is optional, and error reporting inconsistent

<MageKing17> It was all working perfectly until I actually tried it on an actual mission.

<IronWorks> I am useful for FSO stuff again. This is a red-letter day!
* z64555 erases "Thursday" and rewrites it in red ink

<MageKing17> TIL the entire homing code is held up by shoestrings and duct tape, basically.

 

Offline Gee1337

  • 27
  • Sh!tlord/Human Garbage
Re: Vishnans as "the bad guys"
But, then why a 32 year gap?
I do not feel... I think!

 

Offline procdrone

  • Formerly TheHound
  • 29
  • Balance breaker! Thats me!
    • Steam
Re: Vishnans as "the bad guys"
In all the theorised Shivan philosophy, the real question for me is why the Shivans decided to continue the cull of the GTVA after the Terrans and Vasudans had essentially made peace with one another?

If we are speaking about GTVA, that means second shivan incursion. (GTVA was formed looong after the great war) If we put up a theory, that Shivans decided to destroy the species that engage in full war against each other, i think you're missing something here - NTF. Shivans might detect this large scale conflict, and intervene. (look how quickly GTVA defeated the NTF when shivans arrived, but they could order the Colossus into Gamma-Draconis).
--Did it! It's RELEASED! VeniceMirror Thread--

 

Offline Gee1337

  • 27
  • Sh!tlord/Human Garbage
Re: Vishnans as "the bad guys"
I had thought about the NTF, but then it begs the question about the Hammer of Light and the GTI during Silent Threat!

But the trigger of the SSI was the NTF activating the Knossos portal in Gamma Draconis. If the portal had not been opened, would the Shivans still have come?

We still don't know where that portal led, but we know that Bosch was trying to initiate some form of contact via ETAK. So, was that a portal to their territory and did they only attack because of the GTVA/NTF incursion into the nebula and would they left us alone if the portal had not been activated?

It again has a Babylon 5 feel to it as there is an example of a potential misunderstanding like the one which led to the start of the Earth Minari War.
I do not feel... I think!

 

Offline procdrone

  • Formerly TheHound
  • 29
  • Balance breaker! Thats me!
    • Steam
Re: Vishnans as "the bad guys"
I had thought about the NTF, but then it begs the question about the Hammer of Light and the GTI during Silent Threat!

But the trigger of the SSI was the NTF activating the Knossos portal in Gamma Draconis. If the portal had not been opened, would the Shivans still have come?

We still don't know where that portal led, but we know that Bosch was trying to initiate some form of contact via ETAK. So, was that a portal to their territory and did they only attack because of the GTVA/NTF incursion into the nebula and would they left us alone if the portal had not been activated?

It again has a Babylon 5 feel to it as there is an example of a potential misunderstanding like the one which led to the start of the Earth Minari War.

I believe that was all Bosh doing. Our little civil war could have slipped past the terminal protocol, if not Bosh activly seeking ways to meet, and speak with the Shivans. He might provoke them somehow. Or maybe it was something else, like GTVA commiting sin, by activating the knossos... Im sure there are lot of people who have better theories then mine own.

And about GTI and HoL insurections... both took place during the great war, so shivans couldn't intervene even more then they did... they were already on the move. (im not sure, if we count destruction of the Lucifer as end of the great war, or defeating rest of the shivan armada later on)
--Did it! It's RELEASED! VeniceMirror Thread--

 

Offline Gee1337

  • 27
  • Sh!tlord/Human Garbage
Re: Vishnans as "the bad guys"
I've always counted the destruction of the Lucifer the end of the first Shivan incursion and the GTI rebellion came after, as did the HoL insurrection IIRC.
I do not feel... I think!

 

Offline procdrone

  • Formerly TheHound
  • 29
  • Balance breaker! Thats me!
    • Steam
Re: Vishnans as "the bad guys"
HoL emerged at the outbreak of the great war. I am sure of that.
--Did it! It's RELEASED! VeniceMirror Thread--

 

Offline Gee1337

  • 27
  • Sh!tlord/Human Garbage
Re: Vishnans as "the bad guys"
Yes, I believe that is when they emerged... but wasn't Operation Templar set post-Lucifer?
I do not feel... I think!

 
Re: Vishnans as "the bad guys"
So continuing the sharing of notes theme this thread has going: Shivan activity during the Second Incursion conformed fairly well to a limited escalation between them and the GTVA up until dozens of Sathanai started pouring in from beyond the binary system... literally minutes after Bosch's transport left.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline An4ximandros

  • 210
  • Transabyssal metastatic event
Re: Vishnans as "the bad guys"
Based Bosch is just that good at heuristic injections? There might have been many more nodes in the nebula, don't want humans clogging up an artery.

 
Re: Vishnans as "the bad guys"
This whole thread makes sense in the BP universe.
Certainly Shivans and Vishnans have an ongoing agenda. And it's all about balance. That's why they're referenced as "counterparts".
You can look at this a different way, however:
The Vishnans and Shivans are conterparts same as Ubuntu and Fedayeen. They keep a balance and ruthless destroyers are needed to preserve a society of pacifists. One can not exist with the other. Clearly, it makes sense, now. The Vishnans order culls to species which pose as a thread to their own society. This may make them the "baddies", after all. Their role in Ubuntu was their last try to shape humanity, to integrate them, rather than destroying them. After all, they are great preservers.

However, about the SSI and actual canon information on that, here's a little paragraph from the FreeSpace retail box:
"In the introduction (back side), the last paragraph says: "Your nemesis has arrived... and they are wondering what happened to their scouting party." This most likely refers to the Shivan force that attacked in 2335 (FS1). "
Found here: http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/FreeSpace_Trivia
Canon teaches us that the lucifer fleet acted like a hive-mind. As soon as the lucifer had been destroyed all elements of the remaining Shivan fleet swarmed around headless.
Assuming the lucifer fleet was nothing than a scouting party which probably is deployed for years before it returns it makes sense that it took years for the Shivans to recognize that their scout went missing. The shivan race is very old, far more than 8000 years. They maybe think in different concepts of time, 32 years can be nothing for them. The sathanas fleet poses as an actual strike force of that race and the activation of the Knossos provided a new entry point for them into terran-vasudan space. The nebula beyond the portal could be remains of another shivan induced supernova 8000 years ago.

And this is where we leave actual canon information as it is on the wiki:
I don't remember where, but I did read some statements of Volition, years ago. How FreeSpace 3 could've developed. I will try to find them when I have time, but I'm afraid they are purged off the interwebz.
what they said is the following:
They weren't done with the entire story and most secrets were kept for the final Act as in FS3. The destruction of Capella wasn't just a vicious act to eliminate every terran and vasudan in that system. Most of the juggernaut fleet jumped out shortly before the star turns to ashes. They probably returned home.
The final cutscene on FS2 gives us some hints on that. "Maybe, they're exiles just like we are. Nomads wandering the universe, searching for a way back home." Look at that, we're back to actual canon information! One of the last statements was, that FreeSpace 3 would state the final war between Terrans, Vasudans and Shivans including the shivan homeworlds. Information on why the Shivans destroy everything was not given away. But tech room descriptions from FS1 and FS2 give us a little hint. You can read that Shivans developed in an environment without gravity. They are cyborgs and it rather seems as if this species had been "designed" rather than developed naturally. Probably as a weapon which, in the end, turned against it's creators. You can read this in the tech-room, it's all there.

It is obvious that BP states in a totally alternative storyline, here. Where the Shivans are rather made of "universal knowledge, being capable to adapt to any enemy, any weapon system, possible, sleeping below the waves of the universe since the beginning." Maybe, the Vishnans and Shivans were one race, once, same as Ubuntu and the Fedayeen.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2015, 08:32:03 pm by Alzurana »