Author Topic: FSO sound code: request for community feedback  (Read 7752 times)

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Offline jg18

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Re: FSO sound code: request for community feedback
Something like dynamically adjusting the current per-sound concurrency limits based on the total number of sounds available would be very cool, at the same time avoiding clipping issue that Spoon mentioned.

Ah, instead of hardcoded limits. I wonder if that's the kind of thing Jason Gregory covers in the new edition of his game engine programming book. Now I really want to see what he says. Even if a complete version of his description is not feasible for integrating into FSO, just borrowing a few ideas might greatly improve how FSO games sound.

Ergh, it was supposed to release on July 18, but now it's not until August 4? What gives?! :banghead:

Quote
  • New chapter on audio technology covering the fundamentals of the physics, mathematics, and technology that go into creating an AAA game audio engine


EDIT: Jason was one of the lead programmers on The Last Of Us, so you can trust that he knows what he's talking about. He gave a great talk at this year's GDC on the games' character dialogue system.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2014, 06:12:29 am by jg18 »

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: FSO sound code: request for community feedback
can I throw doppler effects into this mix?
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Offline Kolgena

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Re: FSO sound code: request for community feedback
Many video players have clipping detection that drops/normalizes the volume of all audio temporarily to prevent distortion. That might be more useful than chorus effect to reduce the ugliness of 15 fighters warping in or lots of things exploding at once.

Does anyone know how SC2 handles sound code? You can set 128 audio channels and have a giant ball of infantry shooting at once without clipping issues.

 
Re: FSO sound code: request for community feedback
can I throw doppler effects into this mix?

Also: Sound morphing based on distance. HL2 has an interesting system where it uses stereo soundfiles, where hte left channel is the "close" sound and the right channel is the "far" sound, and then mixes them as a mono source based on distance. Alternatively, simply allow different sound files that work similar to model lods.
Sure, there is no sound in space, but I think it still would be a great boon to the immersion. Also, for mods that actually take place in athmospheric conditions (sound delay based on distance too, since even the most realistic games often forget about this - although I recognize that it may be *bloody hard*).

 

Offline jg18

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Re: FSO sound code: request for community feedback
Thanks, guys! Keep it coming.

Bobboau: Not sure how Doppler was used in retail, but I'm not sure where it would be logical to use it. Flyby sounds? Weapons fire (projectiles moving past you)?

Kolgena: No idea, sorry.

-Joshua-: Can you give an example or two of where distancebased sound morphing is used in HL2?

As for modifying the speed of sound and such, I wonder if this is where the EFX/EAX 2.0 sound environment presets that taylor added in the 3.6.12 sound code could be of use. My vague impression is that they currently don't work, but I really don't know. I'm not sure how much documentation there is on them, either.

More generally, It'd be good to look more into what OpenAL's EFX can do for us. I'll have to add that to the TODO list.

I would think the general rule for sound modifiers or any changes to the existing sound code would be
(1) does it sound good/better than before? and ideally also
(2) does it provide additional useful feedback to the player?
I suppose that immersion falls under both questions to some extent.

Also, Mjn, about sound stuttering  when the frame rate drops, does that apply to all sounds? As in sound effects, voiceover, music? Can you check if it applies to sounds/music that are played via SEXP, e.g. play-sound-from-file?

 

Offline z64555

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Re: FSO sound code: request for community feedback
Doppler should be used for everything, but maybe have a weight added to the formula to allow for scaling the effect. For standard FreeSpace flight speeds this wouldn't be much of a deal. However, for the faster mods such as DE and FringeSpace the effect would become unbearably high or low pitched quickly. (The weight would be a property of each sound byte).

Normalization means take the loudest sound that's currently playing, make that 100% volume, and then scale all other sounds down relative to it. It's more or less simple multiplacation and division.

Speed of sound is not difficult to simulate, but it may conflict with other effects, which may be why its not used as widespread as it should be.
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Offline Axem

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Re: FSO sound code: request for community feedback
When taylor first added the new sound code, there was doppler shifting applied to everything, and man was it distracting and annoying. It might have been ok if it was only weapon flyby effects, but the doppler shifting due to things like ships warping in just made everything sound weird. If doppler shifting does go back in, I'd really have to say just make it a sound entry option for mods that want it.

 

Offline jg18

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Re: FSO sound code: request for community feedback
Yeah TBH I'm pretty skeptical that Doppler will sound good or provide useful information to the player (my two criteria from before). except for maybe if just applied to flyby/weapons fire (even beams?)

FWIW I think the speed of sound is a variable you can control through the OpenAL API, but I'm not sure if it's intended to be adjusted on the fly.

The attenuation model, which IIRC controls how sounds fade over distance (sorry it's late and I'm too tired to fact check right now), might be something worth making moddable if there's enough interest. I forget which model FSO uses, but I do remember seeing it in the code somewhere.

EDIT: Clarification.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 01:21:24 am by jg18 »

 

Offline The E

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Re: FSO sound code: request for community feedback
can I throw doppler effects into this mix?

Also: Sound morphing based on distance. HL2 has an interesting system where it uses stereo soundfiles, where hte left channel is the "close" sound and the right channel is the "far" sound, and then mixes them as a mono source based on distance. Alternatively, simply allow different sound files that work similar to model lods.
Sure, there is no sound in space, but I think it still would be a great boon to the immersion. Also, for mods that actually take place in athmospheric conditions (sound delay based on distance too, since even the most realistic games often forget about this - although I recognize that it may be *bloody hard*).

I think the main problem with this is that this requires modified content which would need to be produced. For now, I think it's better to make existing content sound as good as possible.
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: FSO sound code: request for community feedback
I want Doppler on everything, sounds like a launcher flag. it also sounds like the support code is in place.
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Re: FSO sound code: request for community feedback
-Joshua-: Can you give an example or two of where distancebased sound morphing is used in HL2?

Gunfire. If you play some of the more open missions you can really tell if those SMGs are being fired far away or rather close to you. It's esp. prevalent on Minerva (the mod) and the sand buggy mission (Highway 17?)

I personally think it would work really well on explosions in FS2.

Quote from: The E
I think the main problem with this is that this requires modified content which would need to be produced. For now, I think it's better to make existing content sound as good as possible.

True that, but one can dream ;) (I'd actually be interested in producing that content, but I know enough about the nature of developing stuff in ones freetime to withhold myself from claiming full commitment :P).
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 05:36:08 am by -Joshua- »

 

Offline jr2

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Re: FSO sound code: request for community feedback
If Doppler sounds bad, maybe make the effect 25% of "realistic",  just so it's there, and neat, but not distracting?

 

Offline z64555

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Re: FSO sound code: request for community feedback
-Joshua-: Can you give an example or two of where distancebased sound morphing is used in HL2?

Gunfire. If you play some of the more open missions you can really tell if those SMGs are being fired far away or rather close to you. It's esp. prevalent on Minerva (the mod) and the sand buggy mission (Highway 17?)

I personally think it would work really well on explosions in FS2.

Quote from: The E
I think the main problem with this is that this requires modified content which would need to be produced. For now, I think it's better to make existing content sound as good as possible.

True that, but one can dream ;) (I'd actually be interested in producing that content, but I know enough about the nature of developing stuff in ones freetime to withhold myself from claiming full commitment :P).

I think this is already done in trunk, or in one of m|m's github branches. The trick would be to combine a sound effect and adjust the ranges and attenuation schemes.
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Offline swashmebuckle

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Re: FSO sound code: request for community feedback
can I throw doppler effects into this mix?

Also: Sound morphing based on distance. HL2 has an interesting system where it uses stereo soundfiles, where hte left channel is the "close" sound and the right channel is the "far" sound, and then mixes them as a mono source based on distance. Alternatively, simply allow different sound files that work similar to model lods.
Sure, there is no sound in space, but I think it still would be a great boon to the immersion. Also, for mods that actually take place in athmospheric conditions (sound delay based on distance too, since even the most realistic games often forget about this - although I recognize that it may be *bloody hard*).

I think the main problem with this is that this requires modified content which would need to be produced. For now, I think it's better to make existing content sound as good as possible.
You could apply an EQ rolloff and reverb (of the early reflections variety) to sound effects depending on distance from the player to get results without needing new files.

That would be simulating the attenuation of different frequencies of sound by the atmosphere and the sound bouncing off other objects in the environment (neither of which is present in a typical FS mission, but rule of cool). No guarantees it would sound any good.

  

Offline Kolgena

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Re: FSO sound code: request for community feedback
How's the current support for 5.1 surround sound? I haven't played any trunk builds for months, but about half a year ago 5.1 was pretty garbage, if it was even working. Is it also viable to make vertical separation good as well??

 

Offline m!m

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Re: FSO sound code: request for community feedback
OpenAL Soft can mix sound for 5.1 output so you could try installing that and see if that works better for you.

 

Offline gloowa

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Re: FSO sound code: request for community feedback
From time to time, i have this issue where one or 2 in-mission voices (people over comms) get played VERY quietly. Like 10% of what they should. This can happen to any voice, but is quite rare and almost never struck the same line twice. I think it may be present when there is lots happening sound-wise, big battles with beams and lots of explosions, but also happened in nebula once, where for entire mission i heard none of the voices. The thunder-strikes were LOUD tho. Restart the mission and everything works allright.

Same behavior on both Realtek HD Audio (built into mainboard) and USB Soundcard that comes with Creative Fatality Headset.
Win7 x64, 3.7.2 RC3 and this has been going on for a long time. I think i first noticed it after updating FSO halfway between mediavps 3.6.10 and 3.6.12.
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Offline coffeesoft

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Re: FSO sound code: request for community feedback
A I've always liked the idea of the possibility to route the messages voices of the pilots to a secondary audio card.
That would give us the possibility to send these messages to a headset  and use the primary card for music and sound effects even with 5.1 system.

That would be great for cockpit projects and nice inmersion of the game.  ;)
I don't know if it's too difficult or impossible, but i wanted to share the idea.

Thanks.