Author Topic: Forum avatars and titles  (Read 31880 times)

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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Forum avatars and titles
The argument against avatars because it's traditional is based on a series of falsehoods, by the by.

"It's traditional", but so is starting major mod projects and not finishing them here, so, you know, tradition is not automatically good and right. More seriously this argument hinges on a perceived specialness of HLP. It is traditional in many, many places to have avatars. This has not resulted in the sky falling in on them or caused them to spontaneously combust. The sole reason to value this tradition more than any other tradition is the belief that it makes us unique and better.

If the argument is "so that people will focus on post content" then the corollary is "so that people will not focus on the poster". (I'm going to point out that if the assumption is that "so posters don't focus on who has the shiniest avatar" that this is not something that happens to people past the age of 12 and if the reason admins have them is it's really such a concern that they be inherently shinier and more worthy of respect in the eyes of 12-year-olds then...well, the dubiousness of that position should be obvious.)

First, it's pretty obvious without even looking at the poster name (and if applicable, avatar, because we regularly violate our supposed tradition for admins) when you're dealing with a Luis post, a Battuta post, a Dragon post, or a Goober post. And you will evaluate the content's usefulness and trustworthiness accordingly. We have blatant examples of people in the moderation dismissing the content of others' posts in this very thread because of who posted it. People will focus on poster and not content regardless if they are minded to do so. Nay, do not make the hackneyed argument that avatars would somehow make it “easier” to do so. These are opinions that can only emerge from having observed the poster's content across weeks or months. If someone regards a poster as contributing nothing to a discussion, they will not be swayed in that opinion by having to take a tenth of a second longer to identify that poster. (We have already proved this, right here.) Nor will they be swayed from considering someone as having things to offer to a discussion by making it a tenth of a second less time to identify the poster.

Second, "so that people will not focus on the poster" is at odds with the fact that administrators wear their avatars at all times, even when not acting in an administrative capacity and when their posts have no reason to be accorded special weight, in effect prompting others to focus on the poster even when the poster is supposedly irrelevant. "I am specialer than you" they say. "Pay attention to me." If the goal is truly to make all posters be judged equally, this is not only counterproductive but actually speaks to a desire that the administration be accorded special weight they are not, by the supposed logic of having no avatars for everyone else, due.

Third, the fact that we have custom text colors for users more or less destroys the argument that we are trying to enforce some kind of poster uniformity to encourage judging solely on content. BW and Mobius and Maeg had their own tags coded into the board to let them post in their own colors, making them even more instantly identifiable than an avatar would, because it's taking up far more of the visual area, and does not even require a momentary diversion of the eyes from the center of the screen where they would normally rest to identify who's posting.

Fourth, does this not sound a bit Orwellian? If one wishes to create a uniformity of posters so that all may be judged solely by their content (as impossible as this dream is it is a worthy one to pursue), it would be hoped that among all us American and European types it would already be understood that the way one does so is to raise all posters to the same level, rather than restrict away the opportunities for individual expression in a majority. One creates equality by extension of rights, not by hording them.

The argument that HLP's “traditional” approach to a lack of avatars makes HLP somehow better is undermined, thus, by the inherent dynamics of people posting on forums, by the implementation of avatars for certain people anyways, by the creation of workarounds for posters who desire to establish instant recognition regardless of the lack of avatars, and finally by good old-fashioned Enlightment principles. It should not and can not be taken seriously.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Forum avatars and titles
As an aside, no matter which way the discussion goes, I still haven't heard a single good argument for why we shouldn't let global moderators have admin powers (with the exception of Goober's "That's how we've always done it" which probably wasn't even about that issue) so unless I hear any objection I'll assume that everyone is okay with giving them avatars and turn that on regardless of where the rest of the discussion goes.

How did you get from avatars and titles to "admin powers"?

Also, dismissing competing views and priorities as "not good arguments" is completely the wrong way to go about having a discussion.  You are not the unilateral arbiter of what is and is not good policy.

I'm not entirely sure myself. Brainfart most likely. I obviously meant Admin Avatars though.

As for no good arguments, has anyone (with the possible exception of yourself, which I acknowledged) said we shouldn't give global mods an avatar? Cause if not and if you don't raise an objection I'm turning that feature on. If, as you claim avatars are a perk that admins get for having to work on HLP then I see no good reason why global mods shouldn't have one too. Especially when you yourself included moderating the forums as one reason why admins get them.



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« Last Edit: July 17, 2016, 11:07:20 pm by karajorma »
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Offline Goober5000

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Re: Forum avatars and titles
Hi Goober, I don't engage with you because of various reasons. Most of the mudslinging that has been done is done by you though! And if you read the first page back there isn't actually any mudslinging going on and it's actually nothing but a constructive normal discussion. My first post in this thread was not a '****post' and I am hurt you keep saying that it was. You actually have said a lot of really backhanded things about me in this thread but I'll just pretend that you didn't.

Your first post in this thread was certainly a ****post because a) it was posted in defiance of The E, and b) you taunted The E about it.  Neither of which you have apologized for, by the way.

Quote
Also I wholeheartly disagree with pretty much everything you have said in this thread and I feel your policy of stagnation is actively hurtful to the site/community as a whole. All of your points have been easily refuted by several well thought out posts. And you just resort to your refuge of "it has always been like this" to try and wave it all away. I don't even have to do any effort to refute your arguments, because the best argument against your points are your own posts. You are literally quoting posts from 2010 from members that in this very thread have expressed different views now, to adress a subject brought up in 2016. You are advocating tradition for the sake of tradition. I find it very hard not to be condescending about that, but I'm trying my darnest here!

I find it very hard to assign any weight to your opinions about the site, the community, and their history, given what you said:

Also HLP is super dead and it doesn't actually matter anymore at all.
It's still super dumb.

Grrrr  :mad:


Tabling the discussion for a month because no one agrees with you is not a valid tactic, Goober. Arguing that nothing good can come from ****posting is something that this very forum has repeatedly disproved. Complaining that personal attacks are rampant when your first and second posts on the subject singled out other users and accused them of ****posting and making arguments in bad faith is merely darkly amusing.

You cannot now escape the consequences of your inartful response merely because you wish to. HLP still isn't a Goober dictatorship.

Tabling the discussion for a month is intended to let everyone cool down and to distance the thread from Spoon's tantrum.  The facts of the situation will not change in a month.  But in a month, hackles will have settled and the proximate initiator of the discussion will not be a ****post.  Axem is in favor of deferring the discussion, and he has been the primary calming influence in this thread.

And I find it remarkable that I am so often accused of running a dictatorship here.  Perhaps I should start earning the accusation.


"It's traditional", but so is starting major mod projects and not finishing them here, so, you know, tradition is not automatically good and right. More seriously this argument hinges on a perceived specialness of HLP. It is traditional in many, many places to have avatars. This has not resulted in the sky falling in on them or caused them to spontaneously combust. The sole reason to value this tradition more than any other tradition is the belief that it makes us unique and better.

Part of what makes HLP HLP is the tradition.  If you change that tradition, it will no longer be the same HLP as before.  What is traditional in other forums is part of what makes them unique as well.  Saying "X should have Z because Y has Z" is irrelevant because X is clearly not Y.


As for no good arguments, has anyone (with the possible exception of yourself, which I acknowledged) said we shouldn't give global mods an avatar? Cause if not and if you don't raise an objection I'm turning that feature on. If, as you claim avatars are a perk that admins get for having to work on HLP then I see no good reason why global mods shouldn't have one too. Especially when you yourself included moderating the forums as one reason why admins get them.

I will object on the same basis as before, namely that we should not make any policy changes on the basis of a ****post and the fracas that followed.

But the idea itself is an interesting one.  It would be a good topic to bring up again if we were to defer discussion for a month.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Forum avatars and titles
I see no reason to defer the topic a month. It might cool things down. Or it might just leave things to fester for a month. Especially since the person repeatedly calling for a month to cool off is the same person who doesn't want anything to change. Quite a few people are going to see that as you winning out against everyone else's opinions.

Your actions are the only ones inflaming things. How about you drop the nonsense about ****posting and actually try to discuss things reasonably and then the thread can return to the way it was before you turned up and inflamed things in the first place. The very fact that two admins and two global moderators had already posted before you turned up should be enough to show that no one else really gave a damn about the way the topic was brought up.

Hell, if anything this thread is a great example of why ****posting is counterproductive. Had Spoon simply brought up the topic everyone would be discussing things calmly. Any changes that occur will be in spite of his ****posting, not because of it. 
« Last Edit: July 18, 2016, 12:37:04 am by karajorma »
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Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: Forum avatars and titles
I think it would be beneficial in every way aside from he added moderation issue. Surely there can be "do not allow this user to use avatars" button?
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Forum avatars and titles
As much as I disagree with the proposed change, I have to agree with karajorma here: I think the discussion is worthy regardless how it might have started, and to dismiss the discussion that has brought so many people into it giving good long reasonings (NGTM's a good post for example, though I still disagree) seems unreasonable and disrespectful to these people, who took the trouble of dismissing any kind of ****postness and invest in good faith reasoning.

e: regarding giving avatars as recognition "badges" or for mods, I will defer from voicing my opinion.

 

Offline niffiwan

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Re: Forum avatars and titles
Since the previous topic got locked by The_E for no reason given and since he is asleep now and can't read my pm, I'll just make a new thread. Seems like I win, checkmate The_E

Your first post in this thread was certainly a ****post because a) it was posted in defiance of The E, and b) you taunted The E about it.  Neither of which you have apologized for, by the way.

I gotta say that this is open to interpretation. I read this completely as a joke, certainly not defiance or taunting  (pure words are 7% of communication?)
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Offline The E

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Re: Forum avatars and titles
I certainly read it that way.
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Offline zookeeper

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Re: Forum avatars and titles
Speaking of titles... I got my title over 6 years ago, and I still don't know whether whoever gave it thought I wasn't trolling Battuta, but actually believed him to be a scientologist. :doubt:

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Forum avatars and titles
I already do well without titles and subtitles.... I could even do amazingly well without *any* icons under my name whatsoever. That pretentious 2 elevated to bull**** as well. Dafuq is that. But people like shiny stuff, so why not. If it adds to the IMMERSION....

 

Offline Axem

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Re: Forum avatars and titles
I'm only in favor in putting the topic off for a month because I know its a big deal for HLP and quickly forcing change on anyone who doesn't like it will simply resent it forever.

Also PS, if anyone has a title they don't like or wants retired, PM me and it'll go away.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Forum avatars and titles
Present some example screenshots. Discuss what formats you desire.

Then make a poll, a referendum if you will.

For my part, I won't resent anything that may come off of it, even if its merely dictated from high above. How dare me if I would. *


* I must add, because this is the internet after all, that I'm being exactly 0% sarcastic here.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Forum avatars and titles
I'm only in favor in putting the topic off for a month because I know its a big deal for HLP and quickly forcing change on anyone who doesn't like it will simply resent it forever.

I have no intention of rushing anything through. I suspect that even if we discuss things now, changes would still only start to occur in a month anyway.

I'm actually all for getting rid of all graphical noise, if that's the option Axem. But I'm guessing it's really unpopular.

Then why haven't you? :p  Profile -> Account Settings -> Look and Layout ->  Don't show users' avatars.

AFAIK that works for all users.

Avatars should be earned by playing and posting feedback on mods.

The problem with that approach is that it requires someone to add people to whichever group allows them to have an avatar. That could very easily become a hassle even if we give the job to someone who currently doesn't have any duties. I'm not completely against the idea, I just think it would probably end up being more trouble than it was worth. I think there are better ways (some have even mentioned in this thread) of rewarding users for participation.

Handing out redtext titles as a way to rebuke or praise users is also bad and silly, because it creates an economy of favor which values or devalues every post the user makes.

That's the main reason why I haven't handed out a title in ages. I'm quite happy to leave the titles that already exist as grandfathered in, allow anyone with one they don't like to remove it, and just say that we don't hand them out any more to the rest of the forum.


Tradition is a good reason, and a big reason.  But it's far from the only reason, as I've stated previously in this thread.

Some additional quotes from various forum members:

You can't have avatars cause time and time again users have proved through abuse of signatures etc that you can't be trusted with them. :p

I remember we used to have issues all the time back then but when was the last time we had any issue with someone's sig? If anything that post is proof that HLP's userbase has finally matured enough that avatars won't be an issue either. Between that and making it so that avatars can be switched off for those who don't want to see them (which no doubt also helped with sig issues) it doesn't seem like abuse of avatars would be a huge problem.

I said as much in my response to karajorma.  It was a backhanded title because Spoon made a ****post.  If he had made a regular request post, or if he had PMmed and asked for a title, I would have been much more favorably disposed.

And that is the most seriously disturbing thing in this whole discussion. As admins of the forum aren't we supposed to be better than this? Just cause it was traditional to give out insulting titles when we were teenagers and angry young men does that mean we should continue to do it now? There are people on this forum with titles they were given over a decade ago. Should they have to carry around evidence of some stupid argument with a capricious admin for that long? Didn't we decide (over the course of several discussions on moderation style) to change the attitude of the administration towards users? Hasn't HLP been a better, less drama filled place cause of it?

Why in hell's name would we go back to that nonsense for the sake of reviving a dumb tradition that the majority of admins have already abandoned anyway? Is the ability to be publicly insulting to our own userbase that important?
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Re: Forum avatars and titles
*snip, don't mind me!*

 

Offline Spoon

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Re: Forum avatars and titles
Hi Goober, I don't engage with you because of various reasons. Most of the mudslinging that has been done is done by you though! And if you read the first page back there isn't actually any mudslinging going on and it's actually nothing but a constructive normal discussion. My first post in this thread was not a '****post' and I am hurt you keep saying that it was. You actually have said a lot of really backhanded things about me in this thread but I'll just pretend that you didn't.

Your first post in this thread was certainly a ****post because a) it was posted in defiance of The E, and b) you taunted The E about it.  Neither of which you have apologized for, by the way.

Goober... I... You...

Okay, since you are demonstrating again and again and again that you have no sense of humor and your reading comphrension is loving terrible. I'm just going to spell it out to you, because apparantly you need me to. Because you are not very good at reading.

No my first post was definitely not a '****post', though I understand you are desperately trying to frame it as such so you can just dismiss the whole topic at hand instead of actually argueing the excellent posts that have been made instead. Because you only want to hold onto ancient traditions, are utterly resistant to change, and cannot come up with any actual good arguments that aren't instantly refuted. Because as everyone else seems to understand
I gotta say that this is open to interpretation. I read this completely as a joke, certainly not defiance or taunting  (pure words are 7% of communication?)
I certainly read it that way.
I was joking. My admittance to my previous made topic being a 'bit of ****post' was me saying that "my previous made thread was made in a silly mood and wasn't worded very well to start a serious discussion. And 'in defiance of The E'? Are you hearing yourself talk here? What do you assume human relationships are like on this forum?

I hope that clears things up for you. So now you can stop saying everything is a ****post.

I find it very hard to assign any weight to your opinions about the site, the community, and their history, given what you said:

Also HLP is super dead and it doesn't actually matter anymore at all.
It's still super dumb.

Grrrr  :mad:

It must be very nice and easy to just dismiss someone's arguments by quoting another post made in very obvious jest. If arguments were that easy to resolve, I could quote a whole load of posts made by you in this very thread to just not assign any weight to your opinions about the site, the community, and their history.

Also thanks for proving how: "you have a history of not understanding my sense of humor and interpreting everything as a personal attack of sorts." And I know I said "I'll stop my engagement with you there" but when you keep making posts of such poor quality you are kind of forcing my hand.

*snip, don't mind me!*

I am minding you so hard right now

And now to quote the best ****ing post on this page:
The argument against avatars because it's traditional is based on a series of falsehoods, by the by.

"It's traditional", but so is starting major mod projects and not finishing them here, so, you know, tradition is not automatically good and right. More seriously this argument hinges on a perceived specialness of HLP. It is traditional in many, many places to have avatars. This has not resulted in the sky falling in on them or caused them to spontaneously combust. The sole reason to value this tradition more than any other tradition is the belief that it makes us unique and better.

If the argument is "so that people will focus on post content" then the corollary is "so that people will not focus on the poster". (I'm going to point out that if the assumption is that "so posters don't focus on who has the shiniest avatar" that this is not something that happens to people past the age of 12 and if the reason admins have them is it's really such a concern that they be inherently shinier and more worthy of respect in the eyes of 12-year-olds then...well, the dubiousness of that position should be obvious.)

First, it's pretty obvious without even looking at the poster name (and if applicable, avatar, because we regularly violate our supposed tradition for admins) when you're dealing with a Luis post, a Battuta post, a Dragon post, or a Goober post. And you will evaluate the content's usefulness and trustworthiness accordingly. We have blatant examples of people in the moderation dismissing the content of others' posts in this very thread because of who posted it. People will focus on poster and not content regardless if they are minded to do so. Nay, do not make the hackneyed argument that avatars would somehow make it “easier” to do so. These are opinions that can only emerge from having observed the poster's content across weeks or months. If someone regards a poster as contributing nothing to a discussion, they will not be swayed in that opinion by having to take a tenth of a second longer to identify that poster. (We have already proved this, right here.) Nor will they be swayed from considering someone as having things to offer to a discussion by making it a tenth of a second less time to identify the poster.

Second, "so that people will not focus on the poster" is at odds with the fact that administrators wear their avatars at all times, even when not acting in an administrative capacity and when their posts have no reason to be accorded special weight, in effect prompting others to focus on the poster even when the poster is supposedly irrelevant. "I am specialer than you" they say. "Pay attention to me." If the goal is truly to make all posters be judged equally, this is not only counterproductive but actually speaks to a desire that the administration be accorded special weight they are not, by the supposed logic of having no avatars for everyone else, due.

Third, the fact that we have custom text colors for users more or less destroys the argument that we are trying to enforce some kind of poster uniformity to encourage judging solely on content. BW and Mobius and Maeg had their own tags coded into the board to let them post in their own colors, making them even more instantly identifiable than an avatar would, because it's taking up far more of the visual area, and does not even require a momentary diversion of the eyes from the center of the screen where they would normally rest to identify who's posting.

Fourth, does this not sound a bit Orwellian? If one wishes to create a uniformity of posters so that all may be judged solely by their content (as impossible as this dream is it is a worthy one to pursue), it would be hoped that among all us American and European types it would already be understood that the way one does so is to raise all posters to the same level, rather than restrict away the opportunities for individual expression in a majority. One creates equality by extension of rights, not by hording them.

The argument that HLP's “traditional” approach to a lack of avatars makes HLP somehow better is undermined, thus, by the inherent dynamics of people posting on forums, by the implementation of avatars for certain people anyways, by the creation of workarounds for posters who desire to establish instant recognition regardless of the lack of avatars, and finally by good old-fashioned Enlightment principles. It should not and can not be taken seriously.
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Offline The E

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Re: Forum avatars and titles
This whole sideshow of Goob trying to defend my authority as a GlobMod is laughable. I am perfectly capable of reading context and intent, and I believe I know spoon well enough to tell when he's joking and not. A bit of lèse–majesté is perfectly alright in my book; the alternative, to treat every little tweak of the nose as a grave insult to THE AUTHORITAY, just doesn't lead to good places. The only reason I closed the first thread was because it did not go good places; Instead of discussing whether or not avatars should be allowed or not, it was all "HLP IS THE DEAD".
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Offline jr2

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Re: Forum avatars and titles
Since the previous topic got locked by The_E for no reason given and since he is asleep now and can't read my pm, I'll just make a new thread. Seems like I win, checkmate The_E

Your first post in this thread was certainly a ****post because a) it was posted in defiance of The E, and b) you taunted The E about it.  Neither of which you have apologized for, by the way.

I gotta say that this is open to interpretation. I read this completely as a joke, certainly not defiance or taunting  (pure words are 7% of communication?)
I certainly read it that way.

3rd.

 

Offline Goober5000

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Re: Forum avatars and titles
I see no reason to defer the topic a month. It might cool things down. Or it might just leave things to fester for a month.

I highly doubt it will leave things to fester.  What I do know is that leaving the thread open is continuing to aggravate the situation.

Quote
Especially since the person repeatedly calling for a month to cool off is the same person who doesn't want anything to change. Quite a few people are going to see that as you winning out against everyone else's opinions.

Good grief.  I decided not to take action in case it would be perceived as attempting to sway the discussion.  Now, my proposal not to take action for a period of time is perceived as attempting to sway the discussion.  Why do I even bother trying to reason with people? :rolleyes:

Quote
Your actions are the only ones inflaming things. How about you drop the nonsense about ****posting and actually try to discuss things reasonably and then the thread can return to the way it was before you turned up and inflamed things in the first place. The very fact that two admins and two global moderators had already posted before you turned up should be enough to show that no one else really gave a damn about the way the topic was brought up.

You can't look at this, this, this, this, this, this, this, and this and tell me those aren't inflammatory.

As for whether or not admins and mods give a damn about how this topic was brought up, turning a blind eye to ****posting (Spoon even acknowledged that he was ****posting) is only going to lead to more ****posts in the future.  That is certainly something that admins and mods should be considering.

Quote
Hell, if anything this thread is a great example of why ****posting is counterproductive. Had Spoon simply brought up the topic everyone would be discussing things calmly. Any changes that occur will be in spite of his ****posting, not because of it.

And yet, neither Spoon's first nor second resort was to bring it up calmly.  I wonder why he skipped over those steps.  (Oh no, I don't wonder: being "grr mad" is his thing.)

Quote
And that is the most seriously disturbing thing in this whole discussion. As admins of the forum aren't we supposed to be better than this? Just cause it was traditional to give out insulting titles when we were teenagers and angry young men does that mean we should continue to do it now? There are people on this forum with titles they were given over a decade ago. Should they have to carry around evidence of some stupid argument with a capricious admin for that long? Didn't we decide (over the course of several discussions on moderation style) to change the attitude of the administration towards users? Hasn't HLP been a better, less drama filled place cause of it?

:wtf: Of course not.  Look, a few people over the years have requested titles from me, with appropriate justification, and I've granted them.  (I've even agreed to remove a few negative titles.)  But it is well known that demanding titles, acting entitled, or generally foolish will lead to an insulting and/or ironic title.  You certainly haven't refrained from following this tradition.  Heck, you even gave yourself a silly title in keeping with it.

And in my experience, people with silly titles have usually not made a fuss over it.  We have had far more drama from people who lack titles altogether.


Okay, since you are demonstrating again and again and again that you have no sense of humor and your reading comphrension is loving terrible. I'm just going to spell it out to you, because apparantly you need me to. Because you are not very good at reading.

I explicitly told you to discuss the subject without snark or condescension.  Have a warning.

Quote
No my first post was definitely not a '****post', though I understand you are desperately trying to frame it as such so you can just dismiss the whole topic at hand instead of actually argueing the excellent posts that have been made instead.

"it was just a prank bro"

When something looks like a ****post and you acknowledge it as a ****post, then claim that it's not, when you say you're not going to engage anymore and then engage, you shouldn't be surprised when people don't believe you.

As for "excellent posts", when people have discussed the facts of the matter I respond in kind.  You're not arguing the merits of the case as many of the people in this thread have actually tried to do.  Your style seems to rely mostly on hand-waving beneath your special sense of humor combined with issuing ad hominems.


I certainly read it that way.

Noted.  However...

This whole sideshow of Goob trying to defend my authority as a GlobMod is laughable.

:rolleyes: Defending your authority?  I am not your white knight.  I just think it is worthwhile to back up fellow admins' and moderators' decisions.  Unless you are now saying that you're comfortable with others ignoring your moderator actions.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2016, 11:47:47 am by Goober5000 »

 

Offline Luis Dias

  • 211
Re: Forum avatars and titles
How about a compromise of sorts?

You can decide this in a month, and while you all do this, try to come up with photoshopped examples, deciding what exactly is what each person wants, if it's horizontal, if it's square, if it's circular, whatevers, start some campaignings, buy some votes (I'm up to be bought, auctions start at 40$), and in a month everyone votes accordingly.

Why? Because you get a win win scenario. It's a month (win) and it's not "festering", you are actually trying to think about how it will be, and convincing fellow mates your design choice is the superior one (win).

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Re: Forum avatars and titles
I've already said that we should keep the thread open and just take our time about making decisions so I'm fine with that. What I'm completely against is the idea that closing the thread and coming back to this in a months time will make things better.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

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