Author Topic: Obama is visibly frustated over yet another shooting in the US.  (Read 22979 times)

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Offline headdie

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Re: Obama is visibly frustated over yet another shooting in the US.
3d printing technology is advancing rapidly.

Current 3D printing resins are not strong enough to make a firearm that can survive a shot or two. Katie Couric hosted a show about them, at least, although I haven't seen that episode.

A point to be considered though is that 3D printing is a rapidly developing sector and I am guessing that we are not looking at more than a few years before a viable multi shot design becomes available
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Offline z64555

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Re: Obama is visibly frustated over yet another shooting in the US.
3d printing technology is advancing rapidly.

Current 3D printing resins are not strong enough to make a firearm that can survive a shot or two. Katie Couric hosted a show about them, at least, although I haven't seen that episode.

A point to be considered though is that 3D printing is a rapidly developing sector and I am guessing that we are not looking at more than a few years before a viable multi shot design becomes available

Hm, that it is a fair point. Gun control laws would not work in this case, so the psychological/sociological side must be considered more.
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Re: Obama is visibly frustated over yet another shooting in the US.
Bullet control? You can't 3d print gunpowder I hope.

 

Offline headdie

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Re: Obama is visibly frustated over yet another shooting in the US.
Bullet control? You can't 3d print gunpowder I hope.

the recipe for black powder is not difficult to find, and while it is not as efficient as a smokeless compound when made properly certainly has enough umph to make your bullet deadly
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Re: Obama is visibly frustated over yet another shooting in the US.
A 3D printed gun with improvised gunpowder is not nearly as deadly or indeed accessible as a mass-produced handgun or assault rifle that you can buy in a normal shop. Pretty much the last page of discussion has been people bringing up minor loopholes in gun control measures as if that proves they're useless.
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Offline Dragon

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Re: Obama is visibly frustated over yet another shooting in the US.
Black powder firearms are about as deadly as a high-power airgun. Not something you'd just shrug off, but not a modern high-velocity round, either. Also, you can't use it in cartridges without a percussion cap. The best you could do with a printer and homemade powder would be a flintlock pepperbox or a primitive revolver, with all efficiency that this implies and probably much less safety than a proper, metal gun. 3D printing is overrated, the only reason for someone to print a gun like that would be to make a political statement. Buying an actual flintlock would, in most cases, be a more viable option (even in Europe you can get them without a license, if you have the money). Or going with an airgun, some of which can be very lethal if used with right ammo and are usually not overtly regulated as well. I investigated black powder guns as personal defense weapons, and the conclusion is "airguns and gas projectors surpass them in everything but coolness".

I'm in favor of a modest increase in gun control (and standardizing it across the board), but IMO, a way to avoid school shootings would be to arm the teachers and require them to carry a gun on their person, in a secured holster. It's far easier to walk in and open fire than it is to walk up to someone and take their weapon, then start shooting. Especially that if the rest of the class realizes what the would-be shooter is up to and mobs him. Quite frankly, I don't think most shooters would have the balls to even try that. Most of this scum would rather commit suicide than pick a fight they can actually lose (as it's often seen when their victims do fight back).

A gun in possession of a trained, responsible person is not dangerous. Gun control should be designed to keep weapons out of hands of those who can't be trusted with them. Indeed, having more trained, responsible people carrying guns around increases security, as anyone dumb enough to try anything would be quickly gunned down. Restricting access to the guns usually results in people who obtain weapons from illicit sources (such as organized crime) going armed, leaving everyone with little means to fight them. This does mean the typical European mugger carries a knife or a club, but this is of little comfort if you're smaller than him and didn't take close combat classes.

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Obama is visibly frustated over yet another shooting in the US.
don't forget the "advancing rapidly" part, think about where we were 5 years ago. imagine where we will be 20 years from now.
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Offline Dragon

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Re: Obama is visibly frustated over yet another shooting in the US.
You still can't print primers or smokeless powder. Even assuming you can get affordable metal printing, you're stuck with an ordinary flintlock revolver at best. This is still an inferior weapon to a high-power airgun. The most dangerous weapon you can 3D print is a multi-shot, gas-powered air rifle. Admittedly, that's a pretty good weapon (such weapons were actually used by Napoleonic-era special units, since they were almost inaudible), but still nowhere near as lethal as a semiautomatic firearm. Unless you're a very good shot, prompt medical attention would allow most victims to recover. The amount of shots is also limited (regardless of magazine size), with lethality dropping with each shot fired. Somehow, I never heard of a crime committed with either an airgun or a black powder weapon (short of somebody trying to threaten people with an air pistol, then usually failing miserably at whatever they wanted to achieve with that).

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Obama is visibly frustated over yet another shooting in the US.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokeless_powder

that gives me enough knowledge of the subject to start working on making my own, I already know nitric acid + glycerin makes nitroglycerin, if this becomes a thing, you really think you're going to be able to stop instructions on making smokeless powder from getting around?
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Offline z64555

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Re: Obama is visibly frustated over yet another shooting in the US.
don't forget the "advancing rapidly" part, think about where we were 5 years ago. imagine where we will be 20 years from now.

Gun control at this point is a stop gap to reduce the mass shootings to something more sane. IMO, There must be a campaign run in the public to address the motives behind the mass violence. Stamping out means of destruction will be fruitless in the long run, because man is crafty and will come up with another way to kill.
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Obama is visibly frustated over yet another shooting in the US.
I pretty much agree with what I think is your main point
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Offline Dragon

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Re: Obama is visibly frustated over yet another shooting in the US.
TBH, you can probably dig up patents already. Chemical procedures are, from what I know, no big secret. However, the preparation is not staightforward, sufficient to say. You can surely try making guncotton and some even more efficient derivatives, but unless you're a chemist, then you're more likely to blow yourself up.

Besides, you can have your powder, for all I care. It's worthless without a primer. Anyone up for dissolving mercury in nitric acid then trying to adding ethanol to the solution (and live to tell the tale)? How about a modern primer, with lead azide? That's why I've been mentioning the primers. It's not stuff you want anywhere near you. Without it, you can have good powder, but the lock will remain a bottleneck.
Gun control at this point is a stop gap to reduce the mass shootings to something more sane. IMO, There must be a campaign run in the public to address the motives behind the mass violence. Stamping out means of destruction will be fruitless in the long run, because man is crafty and will come up with another way to kill.
The problem is that it's by no means easy to do. It's not something that happens to normal people. If we knew who shooters are and why they do that, we'd be taking steps against that. The problem is not even limited to the US, since Russians had their own mass shooting some time ago. It can happen anywhere.

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Obama is visibly frustated over yet another shooting in the US.
you honestly think the sort of people who are going to make their own gunpowder are going to hesitate to try that also?
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Offline z64555

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Re: Obama is visibly frustated over yet another shooting in the US.
Gun control at this point is a stop gap to reduce the mass shootings to something more sane. IMO, There must be a campaign run in the public to address the motives behind the mass violence. Stamping out means of destruction will be fruitless in the long run, because man is crafty and will come up with another way to kill.

The problem is that it's by no means easy to do. It's not something that happens to normal people. If we knew who shooters are and why they do that, we'd be taking steps against that. The problem is not even limited to the US, since Russians had their own mass shooting some time ago. It can happen anywhere.

By all means it is not easy to do. As I've stated earlier, the sociological and psychological side of the argument is difficult for governments and communities to address without carefully stepping around some long standing ideologies. It also takes a lot of time.
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Offline headdie

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Re: Obama is visibly frustated over yet another shooting in the US.
The insanity of home brewing dangerous chemicals has yet to stop ppl making crystal meth or pipe bombs
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Offline Dragon

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Re: Obama is visibly frustated over yet another shooting in the US.
And occasionally going up in flames. Now, pipe bombs usually feature something less explosive and hideously toxic than mercury fulminate (especially if electrically detonated). Same for drug production. Really, homemade primer production is completely impractical. It seems to be more dangerous than meth with much lower profit margins. Here, every ingredient is just waiting to burst into flame, explode or poison you. The end product does all three.
you honestly think the sort of people who are going to make their own gunpowder are going to hesitate to try that also?
Hesitate? No. Survive? Not all of them, to be sure. :) You can get the ingredients legally, sure (though mercury is getting though these days). What you can't get is a fume hood and chemical expertise needed not to poison yourself, blow yourself up or otherwise screw up the procedure. Also, if you acquire those things in large quantities you might get targeted by antiterrorist forces, as the very same ingredients are used for priming bombs. This is way out of range for some semi-determined shmuck who wants to kill someone. Making smokeless powder is tricky, but doable. Making your own fulminate primers is dancing with death. More modern primers generally use chemicals not available to general public (in addition to being dangerous). If you are with a group capable of providing you with equipment, chemicals and semblance of training needed to do that, then you probably also have an illegal source of real ammunition to start with.

And even if you do survive, there's no guarantee the caps will work. There's no real way to test them, so any single cap has a good chance of either exploding too early or not exploding at all.

 

Offline z64555

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Re: Obama is visibly frustated over yet another shooting in the US.
Dragon, how does that advance the argument?
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Offline Dragon

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Re: Obama is visibly frustated over yet another shooting in the US.
Well, we're arguing over 3D printed guns. :) I'm pointing out that they're not dangerous if the ammo is no available, as the chemistry involved in making the primers way too dangerous for a normal person (i.e. not a chemist, mafioso or a terrorist) to handle. Thus greatly limiting both rate of fire and lethality of 3D printed weapons.
By all means it is not easy to do. As I've stated earlier, the sociological and psychological side of the argument is difficult for governments and communities to address without carefully stepping around some long standing ideologies. It also takes a lot of time.
The problem I see is that people don't know how to deal with psychological aspect of the problem. So far, I haven't seen government attempts at social engineering be a real success. The government has a hard time keeping up with its own society, let alone engineer it.

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: Obama is visibly frustated over yet another shooting in the US.
Why are we even having a discussion about 3D printed guns when there are already eleventy billion actual guns out there in the wild?

 

Offline headdie

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Re: Obama is visibly frustated over yet another shooting in the US.
someone mentioned about using 3D printing to get around gun controls and it took on a life of its own
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