Author Topic: RELEASE - MediaVP 3.6.10 Beta version  (Read 213151 times)

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Re: RELEASE - MediaVP 3.6.10 Beta version
Vengance: When you are in F3 select Render Options. If there is no checkbox for "No Normal Map" and "No Height Map" then you are using a version of the exe that may or may not have support.

I only have those checkboxes when running the 3.6.10 build included in Turey's installer, it's just not there with _any_ of the robinson builds, so it's hard to tell if it's simply missing in the render options or just not complete in it's presence in the exe. Taylor would have to answer that, methinks, but he is currently busy and it will all probably be a moot point by the time a 3.6.10 exe becomes official anyway.

Ships which SHOULD have a normal map no matter what (and obviously so) are the Uly, Myrmidon and Hatshepsut that I can recall off the top of my head.

Also, the robinson builds don't recognize -alpha_env either. So again, I'd recommend sticking with the Turey Installer inluded 3_6_10_20071007T.exe or the 3_6_10_20071028T.exe.


I have the latest Taylor XT Build. The checkboxes for the normal and hieght maps ARE there, the model just doesn't have any on it. In fact nothing has normal maps. My card supports all that stuff, Shader 3.0 and everything else. Geforce 8600. The last build of FS2 I used supported normal maps and it actually displayed. Could the problem be the drivers because I recently updated after the last time I played FS2?
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Re: RELEASE - MediaVP 3.6.10 Beta version
@Mehrpack
That really works? Wow, that would of course be the best possible solution.

I need another guinea pig now. Maybe... with a french version this time. ;)
If that works too, it's part of the patch.


Only with Shader 3 graphic-cards? This is the apocalypse for me at the beginning of the new year (Radeon 850 XT)  :( :( :(

Yes, but it is for a reason. Taylor decided to use a more efficient format for the normal maps (50% less memory usage), but wasn't able to find a way to get it to work with SM 2.0 without a big performance drop. I think that wasn't the only problem though, but it was the initial problem.

The fixed-function rendering doesn't look bad, I hope it's not too much of a problem for the SM 2.0 card users.
...does that mean that 2.0 Shader-cards can be used with less performance?

 

Offline Mehrpack

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Re: RELEASE - MediaVP 3.6.10 Beta version
hi,
I have the latest Taylor XT Build. The checkboxes for the normal and hieght maps ARE there, the model just doesn't have any on it. In fact nothing has normal maps. My card supports all that stuff, Shader 3.0 and everything else. Geforce 8600. The last build of FS2 I used supported normal maps and it actually displayed. Could the problem be the drivers because I recently updated after the last time I played FS2?
lastest? you mean fs2_open_3_6_10-Xt_1207?

this build doesnt display normal maps, all builds after the fs2_open_3_6_10-20071028T.exe build doesnt display the normal maps, for me.

as far i have see it, taylor has rebuild this function, i think, and so the builds wasnt able to display it, but maybe im wrong with that.

but the lastest new build with working normal mapping support was the fs2_open_3_6_10-20071028T.exe build.

Mehrpack
« Last Edit: January 02, 2008, 08:29:06 am by Mehrpack »
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Offline shiv

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Re: RELEASE - MediaVP 3.6.10 Beta version
I hope Inquisitor will host the files. But if you got too much webspace and want to host them till then, just contact me.


Intel Celeron M 1,73 GhZ
2 GB RAM
Intel X3100 358 MB RAM

I guess you're not using glsl, or does the card support OpenGL 2.0 now?

Anyway, the X3100 is really slow. I guess the polygon count kills the GPU. Try reducing the model details for now.
Or try removing the advanced effects VP if you are using it.

This card support OpenGL 1.5

3.6.9 vps with asteroids didn't slow my game.
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Offline DaBrain

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Re: RELEASE - MediaVP 3.6.10 Beta version
Well, does lowering the model details improve your performance significantly?
If so, it's really the polycount. There might be a solution for that.

If not,  I don't know what the problem is.
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Offline taylor

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Re: RELEASE - MediaVP 3.6.10 Beta version
...does that mean that 2.0 Shader-cards can be used with less performance?
Yeah, about 60-70% less performance, in the best case.  In other words, it will easily become unplayable.  The problem is with the lights.  All of our lights are dynamic, and we need at least 8 of them.  In order to support 8 lights though the shaders become too big to work within SM2.0 limits, meaning that it could only support 3 or 4 lights, depending on the exact shader.  That simply isn't enough to work well, since it would be very noticeable in-game.

Typically in a case like this you would just render in multiple passes, using different lights for each pass.  But the way that the engine renders models makes doing this really inefficient.  It's very inefficient with the fixed-render pipeline too, but given the cases in which it happens, it's not that big of a deal all that often.  With shaders though, that specific case is almost always in use, which means that you will get at least a 50-60% performance hit with multipass rendering for lights.  It's simply not worth the effort involved to support something that works that poorly.

lastest? you mean fs2_open_3_6_10-Xt_1207?

this build doesnt display normal maps, all builds after the fs2_open_3_6_10-20071028T.exe build doesnt display the normal maps, for me.
After the 1028 build all of the rendering code, shader code, and shaders themselves, was completely rewritten.  One of the changes as part of that is that the shaders are no longer built-in to the exe, since embedding and further updating 60+ files is a serious pain.  The shader code only works now if you have the extra shader VP to go with it.  The shaders will not be embedded in the exe again, so having the external data is a requirement from now on.

 

Offline shiv

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Re: RELEASE - MediaVP 3.6.10 Beta version
Well, does lowering the model details improve your performance significantly?
If so, it's really the polycount. There might be a solution for that.

If not,  I don't know what the problem is.

Unbfotuneatelly when I enter options by pressing F2 and when I set detail to only "high" I don't feel any difrrence.
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Offline DaBrain

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Re: RELEASE - MediaVP 3.6.10 Beta version
After the 1028 build all of the rendering code, shader code, and shaders themselves, was completely rewritten.  One of the changes as part of that is that the shaders are no longer built-in to the exe, since embedding and further updating 60+ files is a serious pain.  The shader code only works now if you have the extra shader VP to go with it.  The shaders will not be embedded in the exe again, so having the external data is a requirement from now on.

Should I include the new shader set in the patch?
It sees to work with the 1028T build too. Or this build is simply using the implemented shader files anyway.

Unbfotuneatelly when I enter options by pressing F2 and when I set detail to only "high" I don't feel any difrrence.

Please try lowering only the model detail to the lowest value and compare the speed.
Then increase everything back to full and put just the 3d texture detail on the lowest value.

Tell me if one of those makes a real difference and which helped more, so I can figure out where exactly the problem is.


Edit: The Warpcore links should be up in about 2-3 hours!
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Offline ARSPR

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Re: RELEASE - MediaVP 3.6.10 Beta version
Also, the robinson builds don't recognize -alpha_env either. So again, I'd recommend sticking with the Turey Installer inluded 3_6_10_20071007T.exe or the 3_6_10_20071028T.exe.

An offtopic comment. -alpha_env is not recognized because it's always ON (much like -jpgtga). The only side effect is that wrong alpha shinemaps will ALWAYS lead to background "mirror" effects.
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Offline Mehrpack

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Re: RELEASE - MediaVP 3.6.10 Beta version
After the 1028 build all of the rendering code, shader code, and shaders themselves, was completely rewritten.  One of the changes as part of that is that the shaders are no longer built-in to the exe, since embedding and further updating 60+ files is a serious pain.  The shader code only works now if you have the extra shader VP to go with it.  The shaders will not be embedded in the exe again, so having the external data is a requirement from now on.

hi,
ah was my guess in the half point correct, that you had rewriting this part of the engine.
and yeah its a nice idea, so anybody can modify easy the shader and improvments or experimentals are possible without to build a new build :).

is anywhere a source to download the new shader code to test it, maybe?

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Offline DaBrain

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Re: RELEASE - MediaVP 3.6.10 Beta version
Updated links! (Direct downloads via Warpcore)
 :nervous:
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Offline ION3

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Re: RELEASE - MediaVP 3.6.10 Beta version
Quote
The fixed-function rendering doesn't look bad, I hope it's not too much of a problem for the SM 2.0 card users.

I thought SM2 support would be added later?

Quote
Typically in a case like this you would just render in multiple passes, using different lights for each pass.  But the way that the engine renders models makes doing this really inefficient.  It's very inefficient with the fixed-render pipeline too, but given the cases in which it happens, it's not that big of a deal all that often.  With shaders though, that specific case is almost always in use, which means that you will get at least a 50-60% performance hit with multipass rendering for lights.  It's simply not worth the effort involved to support something that works that poorly.

Could it be added for sunlights and in the techroom at least?
Software rendering?

Software rendering doesn't seem to display specular anymore with fs2_open_3_6_10-20071028T.

i have a GF5700
fso 3_6_10-20071028T with MVPs 3_6_10Beta crashes.
fso 3_6_9 with MVPs 10b works
fso 3_6_10-20071028T with MVPs 3_6_9 work (or was it 8 zeta?)

 

Offline DaBrain

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Re: RELEASE - MediaVP 3.6.10 Beta version
I thought SM2 support would be added later?

That will most likely not happen. It's just not pratical.

Could it be added for sunlights and in the techroom at least?
Software rendering?

You cannot partially use shaders for a model like that.
At the moment only the sun casts a per-pixel light with shaders.
So you can only see the normal mapping in the sunlight, while the ships still appear to have a flat surfaces when they are iluminated by lasers or beams.
I don't know if the sun light is 'per-pixel' with the fixed-function rendering.

If you want to test your normal maps for a ship, there are still some ways to take a look at them outside of FS2.

i have a GF5700
fso 3_6_10-20071028T with MVPs 3_6_10Beta crashes.
fso 3_6_9 with MVPs 10b works
fso 3_6_10-20071028T with MVPs 3_6_9 work (or was it 8 zeta?)

Might be  a shader probem... although the shaders shouldn't be used.
Try to use the 1028T build with the new VPs and disable glsl in the launcher (-no_glsl).

There are several shaders than can be used. Which one is used is decided by the maps it uses. So with the new MediaVP and the included normal maps, it's using different shaders.
Maybe SM 2.0b cards support enough needed extensions to work with just the diffuse,glow,specular,env shader.

Or maybe it's a table problem. (My bad... :( )
Try the no_glsl thing and run a debug build if that doesn't work. I'll try to fix the problem if it's a MediaVP bug.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2008, 02:08:43 pm by DaBrain »
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Re: RELEASE - MediaVP 3.6.10 Beta version
**EDIT: Fixed the capital2s-01.pof from these VP's rather than using a previously fixed version.
capital2s-01.7z **Do a right-click "Save As".

Thanks, addded to the upcomming patch. :)

Now I have to somehow fix the cargo container...

:confused:

Why in the hells would you put textures and models into one?! I can run textures, but not models; but I've learned to deal with that over time! Now I'll just have to forsake both. Great.

Well, I feared that would happen...
I had to rename all textures and assign all textures new in all pofs. It was part of the lod/texture system overhaul, to reduce CPU usage, GFX memory usage, and the ugly texture shimmering.
The lods do not depend on smaller resized versions of the textures, but the mipmaps of the original texture now. (Like it should be.)

Also some of the HTL model models use unique textures now. The non-htl asteroids look a bit messed up with the high-res maps, and the other way around the htl asteroids look horrible with the low-res maps. You cannot use either of those without the other.

You can only try to use the old mv_textures, but I haven't tested that.

I doubt the mv_assets will be split in two again, ever.


Edit: Btw, Mehrpack has uploaded the VPs on rapidshare. If you have problem with just one VP, this might be a temporary solution:
http://rapidshare.com/files/80550987/MV_Assets.part1.rar.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/80555927/MV_Assets.part2.rar.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/80558756/MV_Assets.part3.rar.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/80558978/MV_3_6_10_Core.rar.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/80560057/MV_3_6_10_Effects.rar.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/80562864/MV_3_6_10_AdvancedEffects.rar.html

However, the files should be on Warpcore soon.

I see; sorry that I came off so rude. Oh wells. At least the effects look freaking amazing. Nicely done. (Especially with the engine glows!)

 

Offline taylor

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Re: RELEASE - MediaVP 3.6.10 Beta version
Should I include the new shader set in the patch?
It just needs to be in a separate VP or something, so that it isn't restricted to the MediaVPs themselves (for other mods to use, etc.).  I had just planned on putting out a standalone shader VP (like you've been testing with) when I put out a new public build, but there isn't any reason that you can't go ahead and do that yourself (or just include them in the patch since I guess that's temporary anyway).

Oh, and I still haven't made any improvements since the last set (1119, the original one, not the sub-versions), so you can just use that.

Quote
It sees to work with the 1028T build too. Or this build is simply using the implemented shader files anyway.
The 1028 build has them embedded, so it doesn't need any external files.  But the filenames changed too, so that build couldn't make use of the new files either way.

 

Offline DaBrain

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Re: RELEASE - MediaVP 3.6.10 Beta version
Ok, I'll add them to the patch (MV_Core).



Btw, it has been mentioned that the specular mapping isn't working correctly in he fixed-function mode in your newer builds.
I've just tested and confirmed that.  I'll mantis that one.
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Offline ION3

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Re: RELEASE - MediaVP 3.6.10 Beta version
Quote
Try the no_glsl thing and run a debug build if that doesn't work. I'll try to fix the problem if it's a MediaVP bug.
Code: [Select]
Error: mv_strings-lcl.tbm is corrupt
File: localize.cpp
Line: 611


Call stack:
------------------------------------------------------------------
    parse_modular_table()    lcl_xstr_init()    game_init()    game_main()    WinMain()    WinMainCRTStartup()    kernel32.dll 77e614c7()
------------------------------------------------------------------

OK exits.

with the 369 exe it works.

Quote
You cannot partially use shaders for a model like that.
At the moment only the sun casts a per-pixel light with shaders.
So you can only see the normal mapping in the sunlight, while the ships still appear to have a flat surfaces when they are iluminated by lasers or beams.
I don't know if the sun light is 'per-pixel' with the fixed-function rendering.

Are you the guy to confirm this kind of stuff?

That's exactly what I proposed, that only the sun is used that way. As Taylor said the problem is the shader length and i think the shader shouldn't grow that much if only the sun is used? And in the techroom the amount of lights shouldn't be a problem.

By the way is this real phong lighting now?

Quote
If you want to test your normal maps for a ship, there are still some ways to take a look at them outside of FS2.

How? Your strange grayscale normalmaps don't work in Blender. What kind of normal map is that anyway? Which tools do I need?

Will normalmaps work in software mode?
« Last Edit: January 02, 2008, 02:46:12 pm by ION3 »

 

Offline ARSPR

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Re: RELEASE - MediaVP 3.6.10 Beta version
Hey I've just noticed this issue with nameplate.dds.

Because of transparency handling, this texture is sometimes slightly visible. As current texture has "GTD Orion" it can be a bit confusing. See Nameplate-Original.jpg.

I upload a fully black (even alpha) and smaller nameplate which looks better. See Nameplate-Proposed.jpg


But then I've thought: "What happens if I delete nameplate?" The answer is that you get the best looking. See Nameplate-Missing.jpg

So unless Nameplate.dds is strictly needed, (I just can think of real nameplate texture switch failing if nameplate.dds is missing), I would delete it and leave it as an intended missing texture. If this is not possible, (coders answer needed), please grab the attached nameplate.dds which leads to a better rendering.

[attachment deleted by ninja]
« Last Edit: January 02, 2008, 02:45:01 pm by ARSPR »
IF YOU HAVE TROUBLES WITH FS2:
  • Please, please, please, READ and UNDERSTAND the sticky threads in FreeSpace & FreeSpace Open Support board.
    A lot of people are willing to help you, but, as anyone can understand, seeing the very same "issues" repeated again and again can become quite depressing. Please, spend a bit of time trying to solve the issue by yourself.
    (Lobo deserves a monument).
  • Then, if you aren't still able to solve your issue, feel free to ask for help in that same board.
    FYI, most of the troubles are caused by wrong mod installations which lead to either missing data or undesired cross-effects between them. Always follow the mod installation instructions and keep a clean FS2 installation as explained in the sticky threads. Two additional links about how the game handles game data:
  • If you think that you've discovered a bug, mantis it.
    Provide as much info as you can, and try to narrow it down. A lonely "FS2 doesn't work" is not a good report.

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Offline Cobra

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Re: RELEASE - MediaVP 3.6.10 Beta version
Oi! DaBrain! YOu didn't include the Knossos or Ra textures. :(
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Re: RELEASE - MediaVP 3.6.10 Beta version
First, eight million huzzahs for DaB getting this out.  Great work. :)  The muzzle flashes are a bit more subdued these days, and that one texture on the Orion (the the purple crate texture) still gives horrible shimmering, even with 4x AF. :(  Otherwise kickin rad.

However, using the 1028T build, I get occasional very slight pauses.  They're less than a second and appear to be early in missions when things enter for the first time, so I guess my settings are just not pre-loading textures.  I've got an 8800GT so I doubt it's my hardware. :)

EDIT - nah, it's not entries: it seems to be usually when fighters are very close in the viewport.  Doesn't happen with caps, doesn't happen if they're far away.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2008, 05:50:51 pm by Pnakotus »