Author Topic: Trumpety Nuttery Trumpety Trumps  (Read 53329 times)

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Offline Polpolion

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Re: Trumpety Nuttery Trumpety Trumps
Believe it or not HLP does not in fact have a left-wing cabal 'browbeating' anyone who disagrees with them, and anyone who thinks that has never seen a thread about Israel. It just attracts some incredibly stupid right-wingers who can't compose an argument or admit they're wrong.

The first sentence would've made a much better point without the second sentence. :p

 

Offline Galemp

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Re: Trumpety Nuttery Trumpety Trumps
Quote
Reality has a well-known liberal bias.
-Stephen Colbert
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Offline Mongoose

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Re: Trumpety Nuttery Trumpety Trumps
If you believe you have resolved the argument in your favor, then you can simply ignore maslo if he keeps posting. This is the Internet. We can end discussions and move on, if they're no longer being productive. There is nothing to be accomplished by having the last word.

Yelling at people like that just encourages them to post more. And all it does is feed one's own primal dominance and anger instincts. Let's chill.
This.  And since the message obviously didn't get through this time, any continued nonsense gets the thread locked and warnings handed out.

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Trumpety Nuttery Trumpety Trumps
I think this article by the daily beast is a good way to bridge the current discussion back to the original topic.
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Offline Galemp

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Re: Trumpety Nuttery Trumpety Trumps
Thanks, Bobboau; interesting point to discuss.

I think this relates to the Paradox of Tolerance; that is, in order to be a tolerant society, we must be intolerant of intolerance. If we, as an enlightened society, have decided that racism, homophobia, etc. are Bad Things then those who disagree would naturally feel marginalized and  repressed. They're being told their opinions are wrong, so they're going to get defensive about it.

But that reaction doesn't have anything to do with the validity of their opinions. In our open society, we have a free and open exchange of ideas, and as a society we decide to rule which ideas are written into law. The social conservatives' failure to defend their ideas, is not the same as a restriction to express their ideas. Rather, the discussion is over unless there's something new brought to the table.
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Trumpety Nuttery Trumpety Trumps
but they still get to vote. Rather than dictating, it might be a better idea to convince, because "we as a society" have not come to an agreement. We are in fact rather bitterly divided on many of these subjects. Despite the common meme, changing someone's mind can be done, but dictating to a person that they are wrong and they just have to shut the **** up is counterproductive to that goal. I agree with that article that Trump is the result of this and will fuel his rise and the rise of more like him.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2016, 08:32:41 pm by Bobboau »
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Trumpety Nuttery Trumpety Trumps
but they still get to vote. Rather than dictating, it might be a better idea to convince, because "we as a society" have not come to an agreement. We are in fact rather bitterly divided on many of these subjects. Despite the common meme, changing someone's mind can be done, but dictating to a person that they are wrong and they just have to shut the **** up is counterproductive to the goal of convincing them that they are wrong.

Of course, if they refused, consciously, to ever engage on any point, then no, convincing them cannot be done.

They've chosen to believe, consciously, in something they are not willing to defend, consciously. That's kinda what happened here, if you weren't paying attention. Whenever maslo was confronted with the fact he was wrong or that his models for reality failed to provide useful predictive power, he simply moved on to a new point rather than attempt any kind of defense or intelligent discourse about the old one. This is argumentation by driveby, by throwing **** at a wall and watching it slide.

Maslo's behavior, his unwillingness to engage in substantive discussion of any point in favor of attempting to move away from them to other points, indicates that on some level he knows he's wrong. He knows his ideas don't stand up to reality. That's why he argues the way he does. If truly believed, he'd at least do a Dragon or Trashman and defend his points to the death no matter how absurd. He does not, but he continues to espouse them, and pretends he believes real hard, and hopes that if he pretends hard enough and moves to another point fast enough, nobody will notice. Especially he himself.

Understanding and the changing of minds can only be achieved as a result of engaging in substantive discussion. Even if you don't change anyone's mind, at least you and they have arrived at greater understanding of where the other comes from and why. The refusal to engage in substantive discussion causing severe social consequences is pretty much the only difference between a discussion forum and an imageboard.

HLP needs to do this. It might upset you, but it does.
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Offline Phantom Hoover

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Re: Trumpety Nuttery Trumpety Trumps
To be clear, maslo's political alignment or 'intolerance' is not the issue here, it's his inability to actually discuss anything. People didn't get sick of him in the Star Citizen thread because he's opposed to immigration.
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Trumpety Nuttery Trumpety Trumps
Ok, but what I see in this thread is him saying he still wants to talk and others telling him 'no'. He might gish gallop but he's still talking, I've fought with creationists for more than a decade and a half, and it's grueling and hard but eventually reality wears them down. And when arguing with creationists I have to keep in mind I might be wrong, I have to accept the fact I could be wrong, I'm not feeling a lot of that right about now.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2016, 09:19:17 pm by Bobboau »
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Online AdmiralRalwood

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Re: Trumpety Nuttery Trumpety Trumps
Ok, but what I see in this thread is him saying he still wants to talk and others telling him 'no'. He might gish gallop but he's still talking, I've fought with creationists for more than a decade and a half, and it's grueling and hard but eventually reality wears them down. And when arguing with creationists I have to keep in mind I might be wrong, I have to accept the fact I could be wrong, I'm not feeling a lot of that right about now.
Okay, but you're asking other people to volunteer their time and energy doing that "grueling and hard" work to grind him down, and take it on faith that anything will eventually come of it. Nobody is obligated to do that.
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<MageKing17> "There's probably a reason the code is the way it is" is a very dangerous line of thought. :P
<MageKing17> Because the "reason" often turns out to be "nobody noticed it was wrong".
(the very next day)
<MageKing17> this ****ing code did it to me again
<MageKing17> "That doesn't really make sense to me, but I'll assume it was being done for a reason."
<MageKing17> **** ME
<MageKing17> THE REASON IS PEOPLE ARE STUPID
<MageKing17> ESPECIALLY ME

<MageKing17> God damn, I do not understand how this is breaking.
<MageKing17> Everything points to "this should work fine", and yet it's clearly not working.
<MjnMixael> 2 hours later... "God damn, how did this ever work at all?!"
(...)
<MageKing17> so
<MageKing17> more than two hours
<MageKing17> but once again we have reached the inevitable conclusion
<MageKing17> How did this code ever work in the first place!?

<@The_E> Welcome to OpenGL, where standards compliance is optional, and error reporting inconsistent

<MageKing17> It was all working perfectly until I actually tried it on an actual mission.

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* z64555 erases "Thursday" and rewrites it in red ink

<MageKing17> TIL the entire homing code is held up by shoestrings and duct tape, basically.

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: Trumpety Nuttery Trumpety Trumps
Of course not.  But just as you can choose to engage in that matter, you can also choose to simply disengage and go elsewhere.  We don't live in an xkcd strip: people are allowed to be wrong on the Internet.  Depending on the topic it may irk the hell out of us, but at the end of the day that's on us.  No one is compelling you to keep replying to a particular thread.  If you're not getting anywhere in a discussion, then you're free to throw up your hands, say "**** it, I'm out," and go work on your Steam backlog.  What you are not free to do is dog-pile on an individual espousing beliefs you view as incorrect simply because they are not meeting your own standards for discussion.

 

Online AdmiralRalwood

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Re: Trumpety Nuttery Trumpety Trumps
Of course not.  But just as you can choose to engage in that matter, you can also choose to simply disengage and go elsewhere.  We don't live in an xkcd strip: people are allowed to be wrong on the Internet.  Depending on the topic it may irk the hell out of us, but at the end of the day that's on us.  No one is compelling you to keep replying to a particular thread.  If you're not getting anywhere in a discussion, then you're free to throw up your hands, say "**** it, I'm out," and go work on your Steam backlog.  What you are not free to do is dog-pile on an individual espousing beliefs you view as incorrect simply because they are not meeting your own standards for discussion.
To be clear, are you saying maslo has met your standards for reasonable discussion?
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Codethulhu GitHub wgah'nagl fhtagn.

schrödinbug (noun) - a bug that manifests itself in running software after a programmer notices that the code should never have worked in the first place.

When you gaze long into BMPMAN, BMPMAN also gazes into you.

"I am one of the best FREDders on Earth" -General Battuta

<Aesaar> literary criticism is vladimir putin

<MageKing17> "There's probably a reason the code is the way it is" is a very dangerous line of thought. :P
<MageKing17> Because the "reason" often turns out to be "nobody noticed it was wrong".
(the very next day)
<MageKing17> this ****ing code did it to me again
<MageKing17> "That doesn't really make sense to me, but I'll assume it was being done for a reason."
<MageKing17> **** ME
<MageKing17> THE REASON IS PEOPLE ARE STUPID
<MageKing17> ESPECIALLY ME

<MageKing17> God damn, I do not understand how this is breaking.
<MageKing17> Everything points to "this should work fine", and yet it's clearly not working.
<MjnMixael> 2 hours later... "God damn, how did this ever work at all?!"
(...)
<MageKing17> so
<MageKing17> more than two hours
<MageKing17> but once again we have reached the inevitable conclusion
<MageKing17> How did this code ever work in the first place!?

<@The_E> Welcome to OpenGL, where standards compliance is optional, and error reporting inconsistent

<MageKing17> It was all working perfectly until I actually tried it on an actual mission.

<IronWorks> I am useful for FSO stuff again. This is a red-letter day!
* z64555 erases "Thursday" and rewrites it in red ink

<MageKing17> TIL the entire homing code is held up by shoestrings and duct tape, basically.

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: Trumpety Nuttery Trumpety Trumps
Does it even matter?  As far as I'm concerned the entire line of discussion was done beyond death in the previous threadnaught, so the fact that people are posting the same exact replies to maslo and expecting something different to happen makes me ponder the definition of insanity.  Just drop the tangent and get back to the actual topic of discussion.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Trumpety Nuttery Trumpety Trumps
This is now the second time Maslo has brought up the exact same subject. Everything that needed to be said was said on the previous thread. Why should we engage him at all if we know his opinions aren't going to change? Let him rant and just ignore him!

On the Star Citizen thread it wasn't as bad because he was a good example of the kind of thinking that was causing the problem. But here, he's not. He's not even American!
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Trumpety Nuttery Trumpety Trumps
I have not payed enough attention to tell if he has met my standard of reasonability, sounds like he probably hasn't, but I don't think he needs to.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Trumpety Nuttery Trumpety Trumps
He's welcome to post without being insulted or dogpiled on. But similarly, no one has to actually reply to him. Especially people who have already decided that he's not capable of changing his opinion.
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Offline Galemp

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Re: Trumpety Nuttery Trumpety Trumps
We're also welcome to discuss the thread topic instead of other members.

Now, does anyone else have commentary on Bobboau's article?
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Offline swashmebuckle

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Re: Trumpety Nuttery Trumpety Trumps
The article was an interesting read. I certainly don't agree that Trump's success is fueled by the far left's suppression of public discourse. I think Trump's success is fueled by the fact that American conservatives' economic situation is deteriorating and Trump is the loudest voice blaming things like the far left, immigrants, Islam, basically anything other than the economic policies that those American conservatives have consistently voted for.

The person who wrote the article is clearly disgusted with Trump, but just like Trump, he's trying to pin the blame on groups of people that have very little actual power. I don't doubt that the author feels legitimately threatened by Black Lives Matter taking the microphone away from an old white guy or whatever so at least he's not faking offense like Trump, but just because you feel threatened by something doesn't mean that something is an actual threat.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Trumpety Nuttery Trumpety Trumps
On the other hand I do agree with the article in that whether they are causing people to like Trump or not, the left should still stop acting like wankers.
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Offline jr2

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Re: Trumpety Nuttery Trumpety Trumps
Quote
Reality has a well-known liberal bias.
-Stephen Colbert

That statement is false on the face of it and could only be true if it were reversed.

In other words, even if "true", the statement would have to read, "liberals(-ism) has a well-known reality bias".

Reality doesn't change. Political viewpoints have and will change, again and again.

/end reality check.