Author Topic: Used to be about Integration, now about Feminism  (Read 7636 times)

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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Used to be about Integration, now about Feminism
i'm going to reach one by not making new and innovative types of racists.

you know a really good way to make new racists? by focusing on and obsessively discussing race.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2016, 10:27:49 am by Bobboau »
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Re: Used to be about Integration, now about Feminism
Magic does not exist, but it did not prevent people from burning witches. Talking about the issues of witch burning and taking into account that people tend to burn witches in your speeches or policies therefore is still prudent.

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Used to be about Integration, now about Feminism
Sure, but burning non-witch protestants probably would not have improved the situation.
Even though it would have balanced things out, more of a problem is more of a problem.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Used to be about Integration, now about Feminism
i'm going to reach one by not making new and innovative types of racists.

you know a really good way to make new racists? by focusing on and obsessively discussing race.

I don't think anything I've said is going to make new racists. It's only going to give existing racists something else to to be racist about. But they were already going to be racists anyway.

But what it will do, is give a bunch more people jobs who were otherwise not able to get that job because of institutional racism. So no change on the racism front, big change on the non whites get jobs front. I call that a win.
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Used to be about Integration, now about Feminism
do we have any numbers on individuals participating in one or more racist organisations/groups?
I found some on number of groups, but you can't tell if you have fewer bigger groups so I don't think it's helpful.
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Offline 666maslo666

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Re: Used to be about Integration, now about Feminism
I don't think anything I've said is going to make new racists.

You have said that out of two equally qualified people, the underprivileged race should be chosen. That kind of racist policy validates racist narratives of whites being under attack (and in this case, Id say we actually are!), normalizes and legitimizes racial discrimination in general, and also casts doubt on the ability of people of color who get the job due to affirmative action. It will surely create new racists, more racial prejudice and racial tensions.
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Offline Scotty

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Re: Used to be about Integration, now about Feminism
I don't think anything I've said is going to make new racists.

You have said that out of two equally qualified people... casts doubt on the ability of people of color who get the job due to affirmative action.

Generally when you start with a set of assumptions (like this thread has been for the entire discussion), you don't get to discard them when you get to your conclusion.

 
Re: Used to be about Integration, now about Feminism
You touched on some of it yourself. NGO campaigns. For male nurses it would be simple, a series of adverts showing nursing as being just as demanding and manly as any other job would go a long way towards reversing the cultural issues. More importantly though (and the reason I brought it up in the first place) I'd want to see feminists spending just as many column inches on male nurses and junior school teachers as they do complaining about the lack of women in traditionally male jobs.
Ok, on that we have an agreement.

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This is hilarious. You literally just did exactly what I complained about. You decided that the way things are now must be natural based on the fact that it is the way things are today.
Where the hell did you find this last statement in what I posted? I am not proving current men/women proportion in IT is perfect, I am not even trying to find a perfect one because there is no even such thing as a perfect proportion in a population. My thesis is not what you're claiming - that it must be unequal because it is now. My thesis is that it DOESN'T HAVE to be equal - for reasons I named above.

Speaking of which - you said my thinking is unscientific? You keep claiming there should be moreless same number of men and women in every profession, but you gave absolutely no arguments to support your claim. You treat this as an axiom and you are attacking the others for not accepting your axiom.

Which leads me to repeating my question - why should it be 50/50, taking into consideration that distribution of particular traits in the society is not equal, but highly dependent on biology?

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This is despite evidence already posted on this thread that the number of female programmers was actually higher than the number of males at one point. You forget (or are completely ignorant of) the fact that the first computer programmer (or debugger) ever, Ada Lovelace, was a woman and that first ever computer development team was entirely female. You ignore that programming actually was seen as a woman's job for quite a while and only became more of a men's job after cultural shifts as has already been pointed out!

It's difficult to draw any conclusion from the simple fact the now women's percentage in IT is small, then - it was large. Lots of factors have changed since that time. In the beginning computer science was limited mainly to universities and military with only a handful of specialists employed, now there are millions of IT specialists and business IT plays the most part.

Partial explanation could also be that programming huge computers of that era didn't remind today's programming at all, it required much more patience and paying attention to detail. Now most problems of that time's programming are gone, high-level programming is dominating and emphasis is put on effective solving of complex problems and producing a structuralized and human-readable code easy to maintain and expand.

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You said you are okay with biological differences and they alone are enough for you to never achieve moreless equal distribution of sexes in some professions.
I am. What I'm not okay with is people inventing biological differences like you just did.
We're coming to the bases, right? Biological differences between sexes are a scientific fact. Which ones I named incorrectly? Lecture of this could help you :).

I wasn't directly basing on any external source, but only in this single wikipedia article you can find confirmation of what I said.

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Hell, even Maslo seems to understand that cultural issues that prevent someone entering a certain profession don't begin and end at the job. You're not going to get a fair distribution of male and female nurses if men don't train to become nurses because they don't want to be called gay. If only women are training to be nurses then it doesn't matter how fair and undiscriminatory your hiring practices are, there aren't going to be any male candidates to discriminate against. Once again you've failed to actually identify the problem before telling us that it isn't a problem / there is a simple solution.

I want to be treated by the best nurse regardless of their sex too. But unlike you I understand that there are reasons that isn't happening at the moment.

Well, I can partially agree about males not taking female jobs because of stereotypes (despite they could actually be very good in them). They have roots mainly in education and this is where some work at the basis needs to be done. And it is already being done. To be honest I'm concerned about how far go the efforts to upbring boys and girls in a similar manner and what consequences it may have - but that's a topic for a whole another discussion.

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I think it's actually a mixture of the two. I don't think you're at all wrong here but you've got to remember that people exiting a profession can also have a large effect on the demographics. If women who do actually become programmers get sick of the sexist bull**** they have to put up with and leave for other careers then that is also going to result in less women working as programmers.
Where did you encounter sexism against women working in male-dominated jobs? Got any research on that? In case of IT, small number of female programmers makes male programmers' attitude towards them more positive, not negative.

 

Offline zookeeper

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Re: Used to be about Integration, now about Feminism
Everyone apparently agrees that it's not good that some people won't get into professions they might want to and be good at because of sexism and gender stereotypes, and that we can't exactly measure the amount of those things despite knowing that they exist and can't know how much of the gender imbalance within any given profession is due to them and how much is simply due to biology, and that no one supports trying to fix such an imbalance by favouring less-qualified members of the minority gender over better-qualified members of the majority gender.

So what are you even arguing about, really? Whether the rare case of equally qualified candidates should be decided by a cointoss or by favouring the minority? Unless you really must pursue ideological purism one way or another, that's a really insignificant difference and everyone and their mom can see that one can legitimately be of either opinion depending on how they want to look at it.

If you can harmoniously stop when you agree about 90% of everything, or start bickering about the 10% despite knowing that the other person knows that you know that you both know that neither can prove themselves right anyway, always go for the latter! That'll teach them jerkfaces.

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Used to be about Integration, now about Feminism
We are arguing about if equally qualified candidates should be selected based on their identity or not.

It's an important 10%. There is a lot of push behind it. For one example Github got rid of their "United Meritocracy of GitHub" moto, which is indicative of the sort of culture that is being fostered.
Would you accept a teleporter that successfully transferred 90% of the matter than made up your body?
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Offline Scotty

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Re: Used to be about Integration, now about Feminism
We are arguing about if equally qualified candidates should be selected based on their identity or not.

It's an important 10%. There is a lot of push behind it. For one example Github got rid of their "United Meritocracy of GitHub" moto, which is indicative of the sort of culture that is being fostered.
Would you accept a teleporter that successfully transferred 90% of the matter than made up your body?

This is a horrible analogy and you damn well know it, Bob.  Would you accept a student that successfully maintained a 90% average?  Because we tend to call those "Summa cum laude" or "Valedictorian".

The point being, it's not even apples to oranges, it's carrots to pineapples.

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Used to be about Integration, now about Feminism
There are different tolerances for different things. if your house was 90% structurally stable it might not be too bad if the 10% was in your roof vs if it was in your foundation.

It's an important 10%
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Offline Scotty

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Re: Used to be about Integration, now about Feminism
Carrots to pineapples, Bob.  If I thought about it for a minute I could come up with a bull**** 90/10 analogy too.  It would not be less relevant than yours.

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Used to be about Integration, now about Feminism
ok, well... I guess I suck at metaphors then. /*shrug*/

...welp, lets get this thing rolling again.
Hey! You guys! Feminists are a bunch of, eh, man hating nazi lesbian communist jews!
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Used to be about Integration, now about Feminism
*Bans Bob for trolling.* :p


So what are you even arguing about, really? Whether the rare case of equally qualified candidates should be decided by a cointoss or by favouring the minority? Unless you really must pursue ideological purism one way or another, that's a really insignificant difference and everyone and their mom can see that one can legitimately be of either opinion depending on how they want to look at it.

If you can harmoniously stop when you agree about 90% of everything, or start bickering about the 10% despite knowing that the other person knows that you know that you both know that neither can prove themselves right anyway, always go for the latter! That'll teach them jerkfaces.

Actually I'm not arguing about the 10% difference in opinions. I'm arguing cause people want to use that tiny little difference to claim that all feminists are looking for special privilege which allows them to then bootstrap an argument that feminists are a bad thing.

Ironically they are acting like the racists in my last post, using a tiny issue to justify their deeply held bigoted beliefs. It's an amazing case of throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2016, 09:00:12 pm by karajorma »
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Used to be about Integration, now about Feminism
/*skillfully evades ban*/
/*better luck next time, I'm behind six proxies!*/

Well, the thing is when people say "feminist", they are not referring to people that fit the dictionary definition of feminist, because that definition is so broad that it probably includes many MRA groups. They are referring to the people who are really super zealous about grabbing hold of and pushing that label. Yes that is incorrect, but it's just like what has happened with atheists, Neil Degrasse Tyson is an atheist, but he ABSOLUTELY will NOT accept the label despite fitting the definition of the 'atheist' (which is one who does not have a belief in deities) because it has baggage from the likes of Dawkins and Hitchens. The word "feminism" has come to have some additional baggage only tangentially related to it's core, and that is a problem feminists who want to keep using that label have to deal with. There are a lot of 'Neil Degrasse Tyson the atheist' style feminists out there and many of them like Neil (and MANY like him) does with Atheism, criticise feminism.

tl;dr
atheist is to agnostic
as
feminist is to egalitarian
« Last Edit: February 09, 2016, 09:24:57 pm by Bobboau »
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Used to be about Integration, now about Feminism
You've obviously forgotten how this got started.

Overt sexism is pretty much a joke, but it's still an area where some things are not allowed to be said. The US is a bit behind, and there are still things you're not allowed to say, but feminists have largely won their fight. Notice that most of the time we hear of feminists, they're fighting for privileges or preferential treatment for women.
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Used to be about Integration, now about Feminism
not following what you are getting at.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Used to be about Integration, now about Feminism
The issue is not one of nomenclature so much as people like Dragon believing that there is no reason for either feminists or egalitarians to exist as the major battles are already won and the only reason for either to be around is to gain special favours.


And that's before we even start getting into how changing the name of a thing because some people view it in a bad light tends to get you nowhere. Look at how people are already rejecting the use of the word retarded even though it only came into existence because people rejected the words that came before it.
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Used to be about Integration, now about Feminism
"feminism:
The belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities."

Nothing in there about beleiving that there are still major battles yet to be won, or that women DON'T have equal rights and opportunities.
Only an agreement on ideals and values. This is why I said many MRA groups could easily be considered feminist also.


[edit]are we talking past each other again?[/edit]


If you say "all lives matter" it's a perfectly reasonable phrase, but it has accumulated baggage that might be more trouble than it's worth. As an atheist, I totally understand where you are coming from on this, but now I really get what Neil was talking about also. There is some stuff associated with that label I REALLY don't agree with, even though it's not what that label is supposed to be about.
I also don't like it from an etymological perspective, but that's a seperate issue.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2016, 12:12:02 am by Bobboau »
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