Author Topic: Britain votes for Brexit  (Read 17445 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Re: Britain votes for Brexit
Yeah, I was going to post that as soon as I was off my phone.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline Luis Dias

  • 211
Re: Britain votes for Brexit
Actually, if Cameron had a spine and felt any shame for the fact he's almost essentially broken up the Union just to steal some votes from UKIP, he wouldn't just meekly resign.

He'd call a general election.

He could easily justify it on the grounds that who leads the UK out of Europe shouldn't be decided based on a Tory Leadership election which the electorate have no say about.

This. I am amazed that he is resigning and not calling an election. Let Labour stand up and say "Vote for us and we will  keep the UK together and in Europe. All the buyers remorse Brexiters would flock to them.

Would it hurt the Tories? No question.

Would it be better for Britain as a nation? No question.

This is strictly ridiculous and anti-democratic. Not only the brits have chosen the Tory party to lead the nation in a landslide, they also voted to leave Europe. And now you want a solution that will undo all of these things. It's almost as if you really hate democracy. I'm sorry, but they have voted, they earn to have the things they have voted being implemented.

I feel like making an onion headline out of this: '"I'm not a bigot!" says man who voted to deport the slavs.'

Another fine example of the problem I'm talking about. Go on, keep being the problem.

 

Offline Dragon

  • Citation needed
  • 212
  • The sky is the limit.
Re: Britain votes for Brexit
This is strictly ridiculous and anti-democratic. Not only the brits have chosen the Tory party to lead the nation in a landslide, they also voted to leave Europe. And now you want a solution that will undo all of these things. It's almost as if you really hate democracy. I'm sorry, but they have voted, they earn to have the things they have voted being implemented.
You call it ridiculous, I call it seeing the light. :) Seriously, the current situation is exactly what I've been afraid of all this time. This is where democracy will lead us. You let morons rule, you get moronic decisions. Any solution that amounts to "ignore the morons and do the right thing" is anti-democratic (and likely to be effective, too). What BW proposes is probably one of the best ways out of this fix. Give people a chance to take their vote back, elect someone else and forget about the whole thing.

In the end, all I can do is nod my head, mutter "told you so" and snicker. It's a shame, though. EU wasn't a bad idea in principle. If it wasn't ruled by a bunch of retards, it could've lasted.

(sorry for extreme bitterness, I'm in a rather doomy mood)

 
Re: Britain votes for Brexit
Another fine example of the problem I'm talking about. Go on, keep being the problem.

Yeah sorry, I just read a post on another forum chanting that now that Britain is rid of the EU they can finally start deporting the poles and the gays (...) so I might just be a bit jaded.
It's kinda hard to keep your cool in this kind of athmosphere, and hell, you're not really succeeding at it either, and I don't think anyone can.

 

Offline Dragon

  • Citation needed
  • 212
  • The sky is the limit.
Re: Britain votes for Brexit
Where was that? I could show it to anyone from Poland who thinks electing fascists and nationalists (and supporting people electing them in other countries) is a good idea. :)

Though I suppose we've gotten off lightly, they just want to deport us, not put us into concentration camps with the Muslims...

 
Re: Britain votes for Brexit
Where was that? I could show it to anyone from Poland who thinks electing fascists and nationalists (and supporting people electing them in other countries) is a good idea. :)

Though I suppose we've gotten off lightly, they just want to deport us, not put us into concentration camps with the Muslims...

A private section of the forum for premium members, so I'm not really going that far (It has a full name policy for the purposes of online racing).

Voting in fascists was never a good idea, but... well, what makes your alternative so much better? You may have morons leading the charge in democracies, but ultimately the people that make those bad decisions tend not to stick around. On the other hand, the oligarchs and monarchs that plunged the world into WW1 and lead it to such lovely things as the armenian genocide needed... well, WW1 to put a stop to them. Yeah sure, Hitler and Mussolini took over a (not very functional) democracy, but they needed a hell of a lot of violence, murder, and the occasional bout of intimidation to get there. And don't even get me started on Japan.

Ultimately, the UK voted for the exit in a referendum that is non-binding. This means that the decision can still be reversed, it means that the balance of power can be changed, easily and fluidly. I don't think the calls for another referendum are getting anywhere and they are too little, too late, but Nigel Farage sure was quick to let his mask slip with him saying that, no, actually, I'm not going to put any money into the NHS after this despite me printing this promise on the side of the bus.

Therein lies the strength of a democracy: Bad decisions can be reversed far more easily. Britain would not be better of if it was just Nigel Farage leading them.

(Regardless or not it's actually a bad decision - I think it is but another core principle of democracy is that the people have the right to screw themselves over - and I think that is far better then being screwed over by someone they did not want)
« Last Edit: June 25, 2016, 05:45:49 pm by -Joshua- »

 

Offline 666maslo666

  • 28
  • Artificial Neural Network
Re: Britain votes for Brexit
Where was that? I could show it to anyone from Poland who thinks electing fascists and nationalists (and supporting people electing them in other countries) is a good idea. :)

Though I suppose we've gotten off lightly, they just want to deport us, not put us into concentration camps with the Muslims...

Like it or not, Britain is first and foremost a homeland of British people, not Poles or other Slavs. If majority of Brits really does not want us mass immigrating into their country (either due to us increasing job market competition too much, or other reasons), we should respect their decision. I too would not be very keen on Brits mass immigrating into Slovakia, and that does not mean I hate them. Just like I would not like it if my neighbours lived inside my house, even if we have positive relationship between us.
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci

Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win you are still retarded.

 

Offline Mika

  • 28
Re: Britain votes for Brexit
Can't say much about the UK situation at the moment, but how does it help against accusations of lacking democracy in EU when the foreign ministers of Germany, France, Luxembourg, Italy, Netherlands and Belgium speak on behalf of the rest of the member states on an emergency meeting on Saturday (that's 6 out of 27)? I'd think that the most important thing would have been to ask EVERY member state foreign minister to jump on the plane RIGHT NOW regardless where or how drunk you are to make EU appear uniform in the statement. Great going guys, this really is elementary! Yes, this has been seen going on before, but not as perceptibly.

I really don't mind the bureaucrats in Bryssels wetting their shorts one more time. The honeymoon is officially over, now get to work or get out. The EU needs radical reform, several notable figures really have to go at this point (and fast) to regain trust in the system. The system really needs to consider local conditions far more carefully, and when EU wide directives or agreements are issued, the EU really needs to make sure those directives and agreements are really implemented the same way everywhere. And there really cannot be as much pushing your own agenda from this point on, looking at you France and Germany. Less unscientific green crapola would be much appreciated too.

Meanwhile, all the best for the UK. The timing is unfortunate (six months to year from now on would have been much better in grand scheme of things), but I respect the decision. The most ideal thing would have been the dissolution of the EU as it is now AFTER the fall of Russian Federation. UK will likely see economical hurdles in the near future, but as always, it is possible to get over them for a brighter future.
Relaxed movement is always more effective than forced movement.

 
Re: Britain votes for Brexit
Quote
Can't say much about the UK situation at the moment, but how does it help against accusations of lacking democracy in EU when the foreign ministers of Germany, France, Luxembourg, Italy, Netherlands and Belgium speak on behalf of the rest of the member states on an emergency meeting on Saturday (that's 6 out of 27)?

They don't speak on behalf of the entire Eu, just on behalf of the founding members. Which is them.

 

Offline Mika

  • 28
Re: Britain votes for Brexit
Quote
Can't say much about the UK situation at the moment, but how does it help against accusations of lacking democracy in EU when the foreign ministers of Germany, France, Luxembourg, Italy, Netherlands and Belgium speak on behalf of the rest of the member states on an emergency meeting on Saturday (that's 6 out of 27)?

They don't speak on behalf of the entire Eu, just on behalf of the founding members. Which is them.

That's not how it looks like from the eyes of the commoner. Do you think he will consider there is a difference between a "founding member" and a "member"? When making such public announcements, then make sure the media gets you are speaking on behalf of your own country, not on behalf of the EU.

Speaking about it, what is the difference between a founding member and a member? Other than founding members were the first in the union? If there is no other difference, then it goes back to the question why do these countries alone issue a statement? If it's their opinion only, then why did they issue it in the first place and it was necessary to do that together on Saturday?

Really not the smartest play there, given the circumstances.

As a side note this time Merkel seems to be doing she should be doing; that is to wait for the British parliament to act with the referendum result. It's still a close call, and the parliament can well say Nay to Brexit given the small difference.

Meanwhile the stock market is sawing up and down like nothing before. Easy come, easy go.
Relaxed movement is always more effective than forced movement.

 

Offline Dragon

  • Citation needed
  • 212
  • The sky is the limit.
Re: Britain votes for Brexit
Voting in fascists was never a good idea, but... well, what makes your alternative so much better? You may have morons leading the charge in democracies, but ultimately the people that make those bad decisions tend not to stick around.
Not really. You'll notice that as long as they can find someone to blame, they can and will stick around. Polish government is an example, the core members are pretty much the same since the 90s, with occasional swapping of the seats. Also, what's your guarantee that the replacement isn't just as bad as the previous guys? Or worse, for that matter (which seems to be the trend lately)? Also, unless we train politicians from birth to do their job (to their credit, the US seems to have something of that sort in place, at least), they'd have a hard time measuring up to good monarchs. Which, if you look through history, actually comprised the majority of kings and queens. Clueless and weak royals were an exception, not the rule, even when primogeniture was in place (today we have better systems for picking who gets the throne). Not to mention fascism and totalitarianism were unheard of back then, which certainly was a plus.

Even WWI was not inherently a problem with monarchies, but with the way international diplomacy worked at the time. There was no such thing as coordinated diplomatic effort, it was every country for itself in an age in which world was starting to become more and more intertwined. If they had bodies like UN this wouldn't have happened (indeed, the idea of the UN is more or less a direct result of WWI). And the examples of genocides that happened under monarchs are rather wimpy compared to what post-WWII attempts at democracy have resulted with. Indeed, no monarchy (unless we count North Korea, I suppose) ever had an industrialized apparatus designed to exterminate its own people, something that sprung up in two places at once in just about 30 years of kicking the monarchs out. And it looks like we're heading that way again. Even the Ottoman empire, which largely deserved what happened to it, was better than most countries (or what passes for countries, anyway) occupying that space now. Turkey, Iran, Jordan and Armenia are just about the only ones which can claim to have improved over the Ottomans (though a few others managed not to get much worse, to their credit...).

Britain may yet reverse its moronic decision, but I wouldn't bet my money on it. Britain is very split on the issue, which means that pendulum might be easily swayed back and forth with emotional arguments only. There's still a chance, of course, but it's not looking good. Remember, the same morons who voted in the referendum will have a say in every next decision about it, or at the very least in who gets to make those decisions.
Quote
I think it is but another core principle of democracy is that the people have the right to screw themselves over - and I think that is far better then being screwed over by someone they did not want
You're missing one important thing. People are not screwing themselves over. Nearly 52% of them is screwing everyone over. This is the problem. I would be all for democracy if the voting result only applied to those who voted such - everyone would get exactly what they ask for. The problem is that a bunch of gibbering idiots get to force their delusions upon everyone else. I could live with a smart, educated ruler making the decisions, even if I didn't have any say in them (he's probably better fit to make them than me, anyway). With politicians, there's no guarantee that they have the proper education (we had historians, a crystallographist and, in one notable case, a shipyard electrician), they only thing they are certain to have are charisma and self-advertising skills.

 

Offline Det. Bullock

  • 29
  • Madman in a box.
Re: Britain votes for Brexit
Where was that? I could show it to anyone from Poland who thinks electing fascists and nationalists (and supporting people electing them in other countries) is a good idea. :)

Though I suppose we've gotten off lightly, they just want to deport us, not put us into concentration camps with the Muslims...

Like it or not, Britain is first and foremost a homeland of British people, not Poles or other Slavs. If majority of Brits really does not want us mass immigrating into their country (either due to us increasing job market competition too much, or other reasons), we should respect their decision. I too would not be very keen on Brits mass immigrating into Slovakia, and that does not mean I hate them. Just like I would not like it if my neighbours lived inside my house, even if we have positive relationship between us.
The point is that immigration historically speaking is impossible to stop unless you want full blown japanese style isolationism and that worked out very well for the japanese in the long run.  :rolleyes:
"I pity the poor shades confined to the euclidean prison that is sanity." - Grant Morrison
"People assume  that time is a strict progression of cause to effect,  but *actually*  from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more  like a big ball  of wibbly wobbly... time-y wimey... stuff." - The Doctor

 

Offline Blue Lion

  • Star Shatterer
  • 210
Re: Britain votes for Brexit
A lot of what I'm seeing other places (and maybe here if I glossed over it) is 'Yea, there may have been lies about what the Leave group was saying and there's no real plan on what to do after, but Leave wasn't supposed to come up with a plan, only get us to this point. Now it's democracy time to do something!"

Can someone there back up/refute this? Is there more of less a shrugging of shoulders over what to do afterwards?

 

Offline The E

  • He's Ebeneezer Goode
  • 213
  • Nothing personal, just tech support.
    • Steam
    • Twitter
Re: Britain votes for Brexit
A lot of what I'm seeing other places (and maybe here if I glossed over it) is 'Yea, there may have been lies about what the Leave group was saying and there's no real plan on what to do after, but Leave wasn't supposed to come up with a plan, only get us to this point. Now it's democracy time to do something!"

Can someone there back up/refute this? Is there more of less a shrugging of shoulders over what to do afterwards?

There has been a statement (anonymous and not officially confirmed) by a member of the Leave campaign that they do not have any plans for what to do after Brexit, because that's apparently Downing Street's job.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline 666maslo666

  • 28
  • Artificial Neural Network
Re: Britain votes for Brexit
Where was that? I could show it to anyone from Poland who thinks electing fascists and nationalists (and supporting people electing them in other countries) is a good idea. :)

Though I suppose we've gotten off lightly, they just want to deport us, not put us into concentration camps with the Muslims...

Like it or not, Britain is first and foremost a homeland of British people, not Poles or other Slavs. If majority of Brits really does not want us mass immigrating into their country (either due to us increasing job market competition too much, or other reasons), we should respect their decision. I too would not be very keen on Brits mass immigrating into Slovakia, and that does not mean I hate them. Just like I would not like it if my neighbours lived inside my house, even if we have positive relationship between us.
The point is that immigration historically speaking is impossible to stop unless you want full blown japanese style isolationism and that worked out very well for the japanese in the long run.  :rolleyes:

Perfect solution fallacy. Just because you cannot stop 100% of the immigration (that wont be desirable anyway) does not mean there wont be any difference with stricter limits over status quo. Its a matter of degree.

Case in point: https://i.imgur.com/tORrfk6.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_border_barrier
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci

Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win you are still retarded.

 

Offline Blue Lion

  • Star Shatterer
  • 210
Re: Britain votes for Brexit
A lot of what I'm seeing other places (and maybe here if I glossed over it) is 'Yea, there may have been lies about what the Leave group was saying and there's no real plan on what to do after, but Leave wasn't supposed to come up with a plan, only get us to this point. Now it's democracy time to do something!"

Can someone there back up/refute this? Is there more of less a shrugging of shoulders over what to do afterwards?

There has been a statement (anonymous and not officially confirmed) by a member of the Leave campaign that they do not have any plans for what to do after Brexit, because that's apparently Downing Street's job.

That seems pretty stupid. Another stupid question, whats to stop the UK from having another vote on getting back in the EU (assuming they would let them back in)? Considering HSBC is rolling out because of it, I would expect more to follow maybe. At what point does England (since most everyone wanted to stay yea?) just begs for a redo?

 

Offline headdie

  • i don't use punctuation lol
  • 212
  • Lawful Neutral with a Chaotic outook
    • Minecraft
    • Skype
    • Twitter
    • Headdie on Deviant Art
Re: Britain votes for Brexit
A lot of what I'm seeing other places (and maybe here if I glossed over it) is 'Yea, there may have been lies about what the Leave group was saying and there's no real plan on what to do after, but Leave wasn't supposed to come up with a plan, only get us to this point. Now it's democracy time to do something!"

Can someone there back up/refute this? Is there more of less a shrugging of shoulders over what to do afterwards?

There has been a statement (anonymous and not officially confirmed) by a member of the Leave campaign that they do not have any plans for what to do after Brexit, because that's apparently Downing Street's job.

That seems pretty stupid. Another stupid question, whats to stop the UK from having another vote on getting back in the EU (assuming they would let them back in)? Considering HSBC is rolling out because of it, I would expect more to follow maybe. At what point does England (since most everyone wanted to stay yea?) just begs for a redo?

there is already a petition to parliament which has reached the critical number of signatures for a revote do be discussed by select committee.
Minister of Interstellar Affairs Sol Union - Retired
quote General Battuta - "FRED is canon!"
Contact me at [email protected]
My Release Thread, Old Release Thread, Celestial Objects Thread, My rubbish attempts at art

 

Offline The E

  • He's Ebeneezer Goode
  • 213
  • Nothing personal, just tech support.
    • Steam
    • Twitter
Re: Britain votes for Brexit
That seems pretty stupid. Another stupid question, whats to stop the UK from having another vote on getting back in the EU (assuming they would let them back in)? Considering HSBC is rolling out because of it, I would expect more to follow maybe. At what point does England (since most everyone wanted to stay yea?) just begs for a redo?

Nothing at all. Except, of course that it would be political suicide: The UK political establishment hasn't quite grasped what an active and engaged voterbase actually means for their ability to maintain control. If they call for a revote, the long-term fallout will be a huge flood of voters heading towards UKIP or similarly unsavory places. If they call for a revote and they lose, nothing's changed and they're still ****ed, but no matter how you slice it: The accusation that a plebiscite will be redone again and again until the result the establishment wishes for will be hard to shake.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline Det. Bullock

  • 29
  • Madman in a box.
Re: Britain votes for Brexit
Where was that? I could show it to anyone from Poland who thinks electing fascists and nationalists (and supporting people electing them in other countries) is a good idea. :)

Though I suppose we've gotten off lightly, they just want to deport us, not put us into concentration camps with the Muslims...

Like it or not, Britain is first and foremost a homeland of British people, not Poles or other Slavs. If majority of Brits really does not want us mass immigrating into their country (either due to us increasing job market competition too much, or other reasons), we should respect their decision. I too would not be very keen on Brits mass immigrating into Slovakia, and that does not mean I hate them. Just like I would not like it if my neighbours lived inside my house, even if we have positive relationship between us.
The point is that immigration historically speaking is impossible to stop unless you want full blown japanese style isolationism and that worked out very well for the japanese in the long run.  :rolleyes:

Perfect solution fallacy. Just because you cannot stop 100% of the immigration (that wont be desirable anyway) does not mean there wont be any difference with stricter limits over status quo. Its a matter of degree.

Case in point: https://i.imgur.com/tORrfk6.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_border_barrier
Most of those guys haven't voted against irregulars or refugees, they voted against immigration as a whole, I've seen the same kind of bigotry in Switzerland with people lamenting that their universities were full of Germans (as in "professors from Germany") and that they should give swiss universities to the swiss.

Then there is the leftist crowd of marxist little ****s that don't want the EU becuase FIGHT THE POWAH!ONE!!11!!! which are almost worse.
"I pity the poor shades confined to the euclidean prison that is sanity." - Grant Morrison
"People assume  that time is a strict progression of cause to effect,  but *actually*  from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more  like a big ball  of wibbly wobbly... time-y wimey... stuff." - The Doctor

 

Offline NGTM-1R

  • I reject your reality and substitute my own
  • 213
  • Syndral Active. 0410.
Re: Britain votes for Brexit
Meanwhile the stock market is sawing up and down like nothing before. Easy come, easy go.

Nope, just down. Every major index finished down. 2 trillion up in smoke, worst single day in history worldwide.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story