Author Topic: So they banned the Burka ...  (Read 13403 times)

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Offline Dragon

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Re: So they banned the Burka ...
France might be pro-immigrant, but at the same time it can be very anti-Muslim. Their laws discriminate against them. The problem is less in overall conditions, but in relative ones.

Also, things can be traditional, even if they did start after WWII. Many military traditions date back to it, for example (pretty much any of them involving aircraft, for example, are either a WWI or WWII tradition). Sure, Europe has traditions going back centuries. That doesn't mean new ones can't arise. Sometimes, it's enough to make people think they've been doing something for "longer than anyone can remember" when in fact the previous generation started it.
If I break some rules then by all means ban me, but silencing voices just because you disagree with their opinions is wrong, Kara. HLP should be better than that. I dont see anything ban worthy in my posts. I am not the one insulting people here.
At the risk of being slapped down for it, I'm gonna sign this one with both hands. Last time I checked, free speech was still very much in vogue on HLP. Let's not forget what it actually entails.

 

Offline 666maslo666

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Re: So they banned the Burka ...
Also, things can be traditional, even if they did start after WWII.

Well, the original context I was responding to was a post about how France always had them muslims as a tradition and never needed to ban burka before now etc. Which is total nonsense when we realize the fact that the amount of muslims in France has sharply increased hundredfold from almost zero in recent decades.

Drawing any placating comparisons with French history and traditions is thus stupid since we are talking about an unprecedented, non-traditional and completely new development that they are facing currently. It doesnt mean that something non-traiditional is automatically bad, tough. But at the very least we should certainly stop dishonestly pretending that this is nothing new..
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Offline Dragon

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Re: So they banned the Burka ...
This I can agree with. However, France having a Muslim tradition is a bit irrelevant anyway, now that I think of it. The people coming there now are immigrants anyway. They bring their own ways of living with them. Poland, for example, definitely has a Muslim tradition, but our Tatars have about as much in common with Syrian immigrants as ethnic Poles have with Brazilians (TBH, I wouldn't be surprised if Tatars were even less happy with the Syrians than Europe's Christian population). Dunno who brought tradition up in this case, but it's hardly relevant here. From what I know, the majority of immigrants to France aren't even from their former colonies (besides, the French didn't exactly leave those on best terms with their population...).

TBH, I think it needs to be said that "Muslims" are an awfully inaccurate term when we mean, say, Syrian Arabs who make up a majority of immigrants to Europe. I think one of the basic problems of the Western world is enormous ignorance about actual Muslim culture. Men wear turbans, Women wear burkas, they speak Arabic, go to mosques, pray a lot, carry Qu'ran around, eat hummus and occasionally blow themselves and others up. That's the state of knowledge of an average Westerner. A theme-park version of the Taliban-controlled Afghanistan. Sunni/Shi'a distinction (comparable to the Catholic/Orthodox differences in Christianity), ethnicities such as Persians, Arabs, Kurds, Tatars, the vast amount of distinct cultures and a huge range of regional customs... Nothing ever comes up in most discussions. They're all just "Muslims". HLP is a little better about it, but IMO, not better enough.[/rant]

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: So they banned the Burka ...
Actually if Scotty hadn't replied in exactly the way he did, I would have petitioned for Maslo to go into political prisoners for that comment.

If I break some rules then by all means ban me, but silencing voices just because you disagree with their opinions is wrong, Kara. HLP should be better than that. I dont see anything ban worthy in my posts. I am not the one insulting people here.

Excessive soapboxing is, and always has been a banable offence.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: So they banned the Burka ...
I certainly dont agree with that. Colonies dont count, you do not become a multicultural country when you conquer some foreign land. You only become an empire.

You become a multicultural country when you deliberately accommodate the culture of your colonies in law.

Which France did.

Learn what you are trying to talk about before you talk about it.

Thats easy. In a country with a history going back thousands of years, something existing in just for a few decades, and especially rising significantly only after the turn of the millenium, is not traditional. It is a new development and long-term consequences are yet to be seen.

This is absolute nonsense. Tell me, then, how many of the traditions of any country genuinely go back thousands of years? How many of them are of wide public observance?

The various days of remembrance/memorial, let us start there. They date, and indeed many of them are selected based upon the events of, the First World War. That's about a hundred years.

Halloween as celebrated in the US/UK is a little bit older. It's recorded to 1895 in the UK and 1911/1915 depending on the source in the US. Still about a hundred years.

National governments, the greatest of all traditional institutions, date to their founding. Would you, perhaps, care to take a wager on how old the government of France is currently? Okay, pay up. The Fifth Republic dates to 1958.

How about celeberating Christmas? Well, it depends on where you go. In Japan, Christmas got popular in the 1960s through American TV. It's now almost as big a thing there as it is in most Western countries, entirely traditional. That's only 50 years. A successful ad campaign in the 1970s managed to so associate eating KFC with Christmastime in the Japanese mind that KFC continues to get slammed on Christmas Day in Japan up through this year. How can it be this year, when it hasn't even happened? They have to take reservations at a fast-food place to have a hope of managing demand. Right about now they're running out of places. That's only 40 years for something to be a tradition.

Men used to wear undershirts in the US with everything. But they stopped doing it in the '40s in cinema because it was considered edgy and sexy. By the '50s, nobody wore undershirts anymore. The tradition changed. That's sixty years.

You're posting nonsense, and you know you're posting nonsense.

France is not screwing their muslim community at all.

And for the record, I dont agree with any bans on burka or burkini,

You posted these in paragraphs that were next to each other. I don't think anything more impressively demonstrates the utter incoherence of your argument.

You don't believe they're screwing with them, except you object to their actions, presumably because they are screwing with them?

I did not say muslims = nazis. I said that ultraconservative, extremist, burka-wearing* muslims = nazis.

Again, you demonstrate total incoherence in your views. Nazism is an ideology that has immediate, total impact on how someone interacts with the outside world.

A burka is not an ideology. It is not even a reliable indicator of an ideology. It is a fashion preference. It in no way necessarily speaks to one's behavior to others. If you wish to argue this point, recall that we are debating this subject because of the existence of the burkini, which is a form of clothing any truly fundamentalist follower of Islam would be utterly horrified by the existence of.
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Offline 666maslo666

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Re: So they banned the Burka ...
You become a multicultural country when you deliberately accommodate the culture of your colonies in law.

Which France did.

Learn what you are trying to talk about before you talk about it.

Certainly not, you become a multicultural country when you have multiple different cultures living inside the country. Laws have nothing to do with it.

This is absolute nonsense. Tell me, then, how many of the traditions of any country genuinely go back thousands of years?

To get back to the topic, the composition of French population when it comes to religion and ethnicity goes back more than a thousand years. Islam will certainly not be a "traditional" thing in France until it exists in the country at significant numbers for much more than a few decades.

But let me quote myself here:

Quote
Well, the original context I was responding to was a post about how France always had them muslims as a tradition and never needed to ban burka before now etc. Which is total nonsense when we realize the fact that the amount of muslims in France has sharply increased hundredfold from almost zero in recent decades.

Drawing any placating comparisons with French history and traditions is thus stupid

And that is my point, I am not interested in debating the semantic, linguistic definition of the word "tradition" here.

You posted these in paragraphs that were next to each other. I don't think anything more impressively demonstrates the utter incoherence of your argument.

You don't believe they're screwing with them, except you object to their actions, presumably because they are screwing with them?

No, I object to their actions purely because I have certain libertarian tendencies and so I dislike laws that ban clothing on principle. In reality, bans on burka and burkini absolutely do not screw muslims over wrt integration, in fact they probably do help them to integrate better into secular society, or at worst just dont affect it. As I said, France is an immigrant muslim paradise, and the fact that there are problems with their integration is almost entirely the fault of the muslim minority (and by chain of causation, problematic immigration policy), not majority at all.

A burka is not an ideology. It is not even a reliable indicator of an ideology. It is a fashion preference. It in no way necessarily speaks to one's behavior to others. If you wish to argue this point, recall that we are debating this subject because of the existence of the burkini, which is a form of clothing any truly fundamentalist follower of Islam would be utterly horrified by the existence of.

Burka and burkini are both a pretty reliable indicator of a backwards and hateful nazi-tier ideology that is ultraconservative islam. Kinda like wearing a swastika is a reliable indicator of nazism. It is not just a fashion preference at all, lol. If it would, we would see atheists wearing burkas, too.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2016, 01:39:22 pm by 666maslo666 »
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Offline Turambar

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Re: So they banned the Burka ...
Burka and burkini are both a pretty reliable indicator of a backwards and hateful ideology that is ultraconservative islam. It is not just a fashion preference at all, lol. If it would, we would see atheists wearing burkas, too.

Sometimes they do.  Unfortunately, some people are very very white and can't handle much sunlight.
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Offline Mika

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Re: So they banned the Burka ...
Quote
This is absolute nonsense. Tell me, then, how many of the traditions of any country genuinely go back thousands of years? How many of them are of wide public observance?

Is this supposed to be a serious question? Why are you referring only to a country tradition, nationalistic country being a far younger concept than most of the regional traditions.

Now, there's the current Christmas we are celebrating. While this Christianity's Christmas is new, the one it actually replaced is a far more older winter solstice partying tradition, which does date back to 1000s or even before that. Some others come to mind too. Yet, the official record only goes to 1500s in Finland, due to Swedes actively destroying the older Finnish language records. Wasn't the summer solstice or winter solstice partied before that time when there's no written record? I guess not, because there's no written account of it  :lol: And yes, muslims are actively trying to stop some of these traditions

Now, talking about those solstice traditions, they did change quickly. Within a couple of years actually. In our case it was believe in Christ or die. So quick changes tend to signify trouble times from the historical perspective, which is why you find the conservatives slowing some developments (and yes, I'm a conservative). And yes, this is about equally cherry picking facts than you did.

It's also funny that you bring up Japan here. Japan being an isolated country, will also take some of the other culture's traditions, but they take it selectively and willingly and they call the shots on what to take. Good luck trying to introduce anything Muslim there. Given the misconceptions between the Father Christmas and Jesus (they nailed Father Christmas to the cross :lol: ), I wonder how long it would take until they'd unintentionally offend a large base of muslims?

Maslo got it right as well, our tatar minority did call publicly for a tightened screening of the incoming refugees. Currently, out of 30 000 arrived, ~ 15 000 have left. So for an update, half of the refugees arriving here were never refugees to begin with. How's that for Social Sciences sample size? Equal development is seen in Sweden on money incentive to leave the country for home. What I do have an issue with is that these very same fellas prevented those who actually needed the asylum from getting here by clogging up the system for a couple of years! Starting from there, I do understand why France banned the burkha, given the size of their Muslim population which likely isn't that different from what we saw here. Tatars are then a completely different story, and there's never been an issue with them here.

Oh, and thanks for the OP for posting this. It's kind of ironic that the ISIS itself is now calling burkas to be removed due to a security and personal identification problems. The same reason the law was introduced in France.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2016, 12:52:42 pm by Mika »
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: So they banned the Burka ...
Certainly not, you become a multicultural country when you have multiple different cultures living inside the country. Laws have nothing to do with it.

Laws are reflective of the culture inside the country.

For that matter, being possessions of the country and considered its soil, colonies are also inside the country.

Your goalposts, to quote Battuta, are in orbit.

To get back to the topic, the composition of French population when it comes to religion and ethnicity goes back more than a thousand years

Of which almost none of it is relevant to modern France. Tell me, how does the Edict of Nantes relate at all to anything in the modern French life? Indeed, how does anything from pre-Revolutionary France reflect modern France at all?

Your argument is "it's traditional" but you are unable to create a rational idea of what a tradition is, how it is formed, or when something can become traditional. By the standards you are trying to apply here, more than a thousand years the Normans are not traditionally French. That's insane.

And that is my point, I am not interested in debating the semantic, linguistic definition of the word "tradition" here.

You are the one who brought it up. If you're not interested in this debate and are unwilling to defend yourself on it, why did you raise this idea of "what is actually traditionally French" in the first place?

No, I object to their actions purely because I have certain libertarian tendencies and so I dislike laws that ban clothing on principle.

You're arguing that your libertarian tendencies exist in a pure vacuum unconnected to, say, why you'd believe that laws on clothing are a bad principle.

Why are they a bad principle, then? Going by libertarian principles the answer is probably "freedom of expression" and/or "religious freedom", though you have a very poor track record with the former. Thus, your principles tell you that someone is getting screwed by this, being denied their rights. Your argument about "in principle" somehow being detached that from that is a torturous exercise devoid of any kind of internal consistency.

You're now making non-sequiturs about immigration. This isn't about immigration, it has never been about immigration, stop trying to hide behind yet another shifted goalpost.

Burka and burkini are both a pretty reliable indicator of a backwards and hateful nazi-tier ideology that is ultraconservative islam.

A burkini is a garment that actual ultraconservative Islam finds horrific because it allows women to engage in activities they are not supposed to, such as going to the beach and swimming in front of everyone including all kinds of men.

You are either deliberately obtuse or do not actually know what you are talking about.
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Offline 666maslo666

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Re: So they banned the Burka ...
Laws are reflective of the culture inside the country.

For that matter, being possessions of the country and considered its soil, colonies are also inside the country.

Exactly what laws are you even talking about here?

And no, colonies are not inside of the country at all. They are colonies, an outside territory that the country has control over. A country is not multicultural just because it has colonies.

Your argument is "it's traditional" but you are unable to create a rational idea of what a tradition is, how it is formed, or when something can become traditional. By the standards you are trying to apply here, more than a thousand years the Normans are not traditionally French. That's insane.

Normans can be considered traditionally French. Muslims cannot. There is quite a huge difference between those two timeframes.

You are the one who brought it up. If you're not interested in this debate and are unwilling to defend yourself on it, why did you raise this idea of "what is actually traditionally French" in the first place?

I consider the debate about what is "traditionally French" to be irrelevant linguistics. I am speaking about religions only here, and on that topic it is quite self-evident what is traditional and what isnt in France. Muslims are not traditionally French, period. And if you dont accept that, then you are either trolling or we may as well just agree to disagree because I have no idea how to reconcile our viewpoints.

Now if you want to debate whether being of a non-traditional religion can be an obstacle to integration, especially if it has significantly different moral views, then be my guest.

You're arguing that your libertarian tendencies exist in a pure vacuum unconnected to, say, why you'd believe that laws on clothing are a bad principle.

Why are they a bad principle, then? Going by libertarian principles the answer is probably "freedom of expression" and/or "religious freedom", though you have a very poor track record with the former. Thus, your principles tell you that someone is getting screwed by this, being denied their rights. Your argument about "in principle" somehow being detached that from that is a torturous exercise devoid of any kind of internal consistency.

I did say that I disagree with these laws. So from that libertarian point of view, someone is getting screwed over by them. What I wanted to say is that I dont think they have any negative effect on integration of muslims, or as you said, screwing muslims over in the same way as in Algeria. That is BS.

You're now making non-sequiturs about immigration. This isn't about immigration, it has never been about immigration, stop trying to hide behind yet another shifted goalpost.

For me it is, that is at the root of the problems with muslims in France, IMHO. It is also the ultimate cause why people push for burka bans.

A burkini is a garment that actual ultraconservative Islam finds horrific because it allows women to engage in activities they are not supposed to, such as going to the beach and swimming in front of everyone including all kinds of men.

You are either deliberately obtuse or do not actually know what you are talking about.

Burkini = ultraconservative Islam.

People for whom even burkini is not enough = ultra ultra conservative islam.
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Offline Dragon

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Re: So they banned the Burka ...
Tell me, then, why the name "Burquini" is trademarked by an Australian company owned by a Lebanese-born woman who emigrated to Australia when she was two years old: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aheda_Zanetti
It's not the only item of clothing of that sort she designed, either.

Burkini originated about as far from "ultraconservative Islam" as you can get without being a complete "Ramadan-and-Haji Muslim" (a Muslim equivalent of Christmas-and-Easter Christians. Yes, they exist). It's not about being ultraconservative, it's just about having a degree of respect for one's own religion. I'm not fond of religions in general, but I hate hypocrites with burning passion. Plus, it's good for people with skin issues.

 

Offline 666maslo666

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Re: So they banned the Burka ...
Burkini originated about as far from "ultraconservative Islam" as you can get without being a complete "Ramadan-and-Haji Muslim" (a Muslim equivalent of Christmas-and-Easter Christians. Yes, they exist).

But thats the thing, Islam in general IS such a backwards and indeed, ultraconservative ideology that it does take some kind of a "Ramadan-and-Haji Muslim" (liberal muslim) to be compatible with Western culture. They can still take the important parts of the religion seriously but gotta leave behind the misogynistic, sexist, oppressive, fundamentalist and homophobic parts. Unfortunately that is much harder for muslims to do than lets say, christians, because they havent gone through hundreds of years of reformation, secularization and modernization. Which is why some people feel the need to help them join the rest of us in 21st century by implementing burka and burkini bans. And I dont agree with such bans but certainly understand the rationale.
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Offline Dragon

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Re: So they banned the Burka ...
Here's where you're wrong - it's perfectly possible to be a Muslim and respect the religion's customs without being a bigot (Aheda Zanetti being a prime example). Just like it's possible to believe in Christian religion and not be a WBC-style religious nut. Liberal Muslim isn't the same thing as a "Ramadan-and-Haji" Muslim in name only. One can be liberal in beliefs and still subscribe to most interpretations of Islam other than Wahabism. In particular, Sufis and Shia Muslims are more spiritual and more liberal than Sunnis. Islam is not some sort of evil cult, at least not to a greater degree than any other Abrahamic religion is. It merely has a disproportionate amount of morons as followers.

Islam has not been around quite as long as Christianity, but quite honestly, it's had time to evolve and reform. Muslims in India, Tatars in Eastern Europe, even Iran and Turkey (theocratic governments aside) are quite civilized. On the other hand, Christians can be just as backwards as Muslims from rural Saudi Arabia. Certain Polish Christians, for example, are absurdly homophobic and misogynistic. They even have a radio and a TV channel to spread their BS. You know who I'm talking about unless you spend all your time on foreign forums. :) Just recall the time the government tried to remove that cross from the Presidential Palace's front yard, back in 2012 (really, they only things they were missing were AK-47s and bomb vests). In America, you've got Westboro Baptist Church and related groups. Christians can be just as bad as Muslims.

Intolerance and backwardness is, to a degree, a property of every Abrahamic religion, which is to be expected when one of the core tenets is suppressing other religions. Ultimately, it's up to the followers themselves to avoid being bigots and fit with the modern society. The world would certainly be better if we got rid of those superstitions, but some people treasure them too much and as long as they don't get in other peoples' way, they're mostly harmless. And even when they're used as a justification for being an asshole, banning the justification won't make someone not be an asshole.

 

Offline 666maslo666

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Re: So they banned the Burka ...
Quote
Here's where you're wrong - it's perfectly possible to be a Muslim and respect the religion's customs without being a bigot (Aheda Zanetti being a prime example).

It is possible that Aheda Zanetti is maybe not a bigot (I wouldnt count on it) but she certainly has a very pathological and oppressive attitude towards nudity and the human body and lots of internalized misogyny and sexism, and is spreading such ideas around by her activities. If she wanted to swim covered head to toe, she should go live in Lebanon. If you are afraid to put on a simple swimsuit, you are hardly a liberal muslim by my definition. You will have trouble integrating into western culture and will be a bad influence on it. OF course we should treat Aheda Zanetti with due respect, but at the same time allowing such people like her to settle inside western country in significant numbers is a mistake.

Muslims in India are quite civilized? Is that why they often have conflicts with Hindu majority?

Tatars are OK but then it is not Tatars that are changing the demographics of France, is it. It is mostly Sunnis from middle east and north Africa. They are the muslim equivalent of WBC, subsaharan African Christians, or those radio Maryja listeners. And I wouldnt want those coming here either.
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Offline Scotty

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Re: So they banned the Burka ...
Muslims in India are quite civilized? Is that why they often have conflicts with Hindu majority?

Reality check time!  Let's substitute "blacks" for "Muslims", "the U.S." for "India", and "white" for "Hindu" and see if you're a massive racist.

Blacks in the U.S. are quite civilized?  Is that why they often have conflicts with the white majority?

Holy ****, that's pretty ****ing racist!

If I hadn't already stepped in prior to this and involved myself in the conversation, this would have netted you one hell of a warning.

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: So they banned the Burka ...
It is possible that Aheda Zanetti is maybe not a bigot (I wouldnt count on it) but she certainly has a very pathological and oppressive attitude towards nudity and the human body and lots of internalized misogyny and sexism, and is spreading such ideas around by her activities. If she wanted to swim covered head to toe, she should go live in Lebanon. If you are afraid to put on a simple swimsuit, you are hardly a liberal muslim by my definition. You will have trouble integrating into western culture and will be a bad influence on it. OF course we should treat Aheda Zanetti with due respect, but at the same time allowing such people like her to settle inside western country in significant numbers is a mistake.
I give up. She's a fashion designer. A successful, independent businesswoman and a normal member of the upper crust of the Australian society. No, the burkini was not designed because she wanted to force women to wear it. It was designed because there was a market for something like this. In other words, the women actually wanted it. It's in friggin' Wikipedia! The idea was a massive success, not only with orthodox Muslims, but also with more orthodox Jews in Israel, for example.

Really, "Lots of internalized misogyny and sexism"? I don't know her, but I'd wager she'd either be very offended or laughed her back off if she heard that. It reminds me of all those "they're not thinking what they think they're thinking" pseudo-psychological claims that have been made about women, gays, blacks and every other ethnicity that was recently discriminated against. If anything, the world needs more people like her. People who can make connections between traditional and modern worlds. Burkini is a perfect example - it lets women conform to the rules while not being hindered by them. However irrational it is, some people really believe that they're going to get rewarded in afterlife for sticking to their superstition. Burkini and related garments weren't created as a tool of oppression, but to make lives easier for those who believe in what Islam preaches.
Quote
Tatars are OK but then it is not Tatars that are changing the demographics of France, is it. It is mostly Sunnis from middle east and north Africa. They are the muslim equivalent of WBC, subsaharan African Christians, or those radio Maryja listeners. And I wouldnt want those coming here either.
OK, so now you go from "Muslims" to "Sunnis from Middle East and North Africa". I suppose it's a step in the right direction. Still an overgeneralization, but you're now much closer to mark. I advise you to stick to the latter version in the future, you'll exclude a lot of good people from your accusations.

Scotty dealt with the part about Muslims in India. Yes, there are conflicts, but around these parts they're more ethnic than religious. They're just as civilized as the Hindu majority and certainly not the only ones responsible for the conflicts. So yeah, that's plain ol' racism. Pretty much the same was (and all too often still is) said about the blacks in the US. Or Palestinians in Israel, for that matter. Dressing up racism as a religious matter doesn't make it any less racist.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: So they banned the Burka ...
If she wanted to swim covered head to toe, she should go live in Lebanon

The point where you're spouting **** like "If they don't like it, they should go back to where they came from" is when you are basically a racist. When you're talking about someone who emigrated at the age of 2, it's pretty much indefensible.

You're banned, immediate effect and I will send you a message once we decide how long for.
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Offline Dragon

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Re: So they banned the Burka ...
Thanks for giving him an excuse not to bother defending his absurd opinions. There are ways of changing someone's opinion, but censorship is not a way to do it. I already managed to get him to admit it's not "Muslims" that are the problem! Bet that's more than you ever managed to convince him of. If you bothered arguing at this point, you would have probably achieved more than you did with the ban (honestly, his whole post just begs to be torn to pieces).

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: So they banned the Burka ...
You got him to admit it until the next post where he'd default to it again.

Go look at the Star Citizen threadnought if you have any illusions about how you can persuade maslo to change his mind.

He was already warned that he was on thin ice. He ignored the creaking sound to jump up and down on the ice and post blatantly racist opinions on a public board. While I applaud your attempt to persuade people how wrong their opinions are, there are only so many times one person can manage to drag every single interesting thread round to discussing their bull**** before action has to be taken.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2016, 09:13:19 am by karajorma »
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Offline Bobboau

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    Just MODerately cool
    And MODest too
  • 213
Re: So they banned the Burka ...
am I the only one who has noticed a bunch of non-French people arguing about what is or is not part of French culture?
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together