[Phantom Hoover]

someone break out the bingo square

[Luis Dias]

You're not the only one outraged at it, I at least assure you of that.

[Grizzly]

Yo, we all get that Israel is a rather ****ty place to live in, but why did you in the same breath attempt to justify Israel reneging on any peace agreement it has been party to?

Huh? What peace agreement are we reneging on? How did you even get to that conclusion?

The Oslo Accords. Or, indeed, any. All the post 1967 peace talks that have been done have always involved Israel agreeing to withdrawing from the west bank. So far, it has only expanded into the west bank.

Besides, the West Bank is at best (at worst?) disputed territory, not occupied territory. I won't get into that now though.

Actually, this is important. It's perhaps more important then you trying to repaint all of Islam as some sort of continuation of Nazi Germany, or all of Palestina as terrorists. Because there are two ways of looking at this:

Either:
Israel is occupying Palestina. This is a view held by everyone, including the Israeli High Court of Justice, but not by the current Israeli government. Following this view means that Israel is in violation of the Geneva convention by putting civilians into territory that is occupied by their military, as well as expelling palestinian civilians from that same territory. That's why those UN resolutions exist, but okay... You don't share that view. That's fine. But...

Or:
The West Bank belongs to Israel, according to Israel. Other states may claim that they own it, and they do, and that's why it's disputed territory, but okay. Israel owns it. It's cool.

So why doesn't Israel take responsibility for what's happening there? Why does it have to make a political point out of building houses? Wny aren't the palestinians allowed to vote? Why is there such a large disparity between two ethnic groups? Why is that disparity not being adressed? Why is there so much state violence going on? Why is there so much anti-state violence going on? Why is Israel not protecting it's own citizens? You state that education is a problem, so why isn't the disparity in education being adressed? If Israel controls the territory, it means that they hold all the cards. Why aren't they dealing them?

Israel protects its children with its soldiers. Palestinians protect their fighters with their children.

Where is your outrage over their use of children as human shields? Where is your outrage when they launch rockets at Israeli cities from schoolyards and mosques? Where is your outrage over their indoctrination of their own children from before they can speak with the glorification of hatred, violence, and murder?

Why is it that I, an Israeli Messianic Jew, appear to be the only one outraged over what the Palestinians are doing to their own children?

If you really think that was the case, you're not paying attention. But have you noticed? There are no Palestinians in this thread for us to voice our concerns to. There is no palestinian state for us to voice our concerns to, or atleast not one recognized by either the UN or the EU. We are as outraged at Israeli civilians being killed as we are at Palestinian civilians being killed. And no: The IDF isn't doing a whole lot against civilian deaths, it has only used heavier ordenance in the last few offensives, it's just that it's government is less and less interested in holding it to account. Because the Israeli government is not interested in peace. The amount of effort they've put into the peace proposals done by neutral parties shows it. The world is distraught by a conflict which has no end in sight. The reason why you're hearing the critique that is aimed at the Israeli's is because... you're Israeli. That doesn't mean that the Palestinians are not also being critiqued, it just so happens that that critique isn't adressed at you.

[Unknown Target]

I've been to Israel, beautiful country. Got a pretty interesting perspective too - one of the guards on my trip was Muslim, and was involved in policing operations in Palestine. He showed me footage of when he had to kill someone there. It was an interesting perspective. I'd like to go back there again sometime.

There's two sides to every story, I don't really care to get into it because arguing on a forum thread won't solve anything. I'm also going to remain impartial.

I don't think I've locked a thread in like...3 years? Please play nice and, I don't know, try to let go of preconceived notions and allow for the possibility of outside influences that you might not be aware of.

[Mongoose]

someone break out the bingo square

If this is the level of discourse you're bringing to this thread, proceed to vacate it.

[Grizzly]

In the time period between 1948 and 1967, there were no "settlements" to get all up in arms about. No "occupation". So why were the Arabs/Palestinians attacking Israeli civilians? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attacks_against_Israeli_civilians_before_1967

I'll dive into this point and further in a bit more detail, but my geuss? It probably has something to do with this. And no - the existence of Jews really isn't an affront to Allah considering who they all worship, but okay. Let's roll with it. Like the Americans did in Afghanistan, or in Iraq after they removed Hussein, or in Vietnam, or during the Second World War. Let's ignore the complexities surrounding Hamas, the PA and the situation in East Jerusalem, suppose Islam is a fascistic ideology as it is referred to by the dutch far right and suppose it's the prime motivator for aggression.

Then it boils down to this: The Germans were able to point to the Versailles treaty in order to justify their aggression. The Vietnamese communists were able to point to agent orange and bombing of civilians with napalm to justify their own resistance. The Taliban and Al-Queda were able to point to regime changes, the torture of innocents in Gitmo, and the excessive usage of NATO airstrikes that invariably hit civilians due to their crudeness in order to justify their actions and recruit more followers. These are not prime motivators (or atleast, not in their ideologue, they might well be for some of their supporters). They are important becuase only one of the aforementioned was crippled after the war ended.

Fighting a war, crippling another economy without an economic rescue plan and without any hearts and minds campaign means that in the long run, everybody loses, be it the WW1 versailles treaty inevetibly leading towards WW2 or the US's failure to actually let people know why they were in afghanistan.  Look at what those attacks between 1948 and 1967 actually meant: That the foreign policy that Israel has carried out since 1967 has not meaningfully changed the situation towards it's stated goals of protecting it's own civilians. Polls indicate that there are many palestinians who would prefer to be Israeli citizens. Mabye exploit that, rather then continuing a 50 or 70 year old cycle.

[LaineyBugsDaddy]

Actually, Israel is the only nation in the region that will give palestinian arabs full citizenship if they wish it. There are even palestinian arab members the Knesset. All other surrounding nations refuse to do grant palestinian arabs any citizenship. The UN even has a resolution in place declaring that palestinian arabs permanent refugees until they have their own state. Except they do have the two state solution they keep demanding, but the palestinian government, which happens to be a KNOWN TERRORIST ORGANIZATION, keeps screwing it up because the two state solution is not what they really want. The anti-Israel bias of this is clear. The other nations don't want a solution. They want the "palestinian problem" as a club with which to beat Israel over the head. And the palestinian government just wants all the jews pushed into the sea. But what is perhaps the saddest thing of all is that if the Children of Israel had waited about 50 years to return to the Promised Land, there would be no "palestinian problem" to be debated. The Egyptian and Jordanian colonists who became what we now call "Palestinians" were dying out. They had ruined the arable land. They had inadequate healthcare even by the standards of the world at the time of the Israeli war of independence. The survival rate of children born to them was below even replacement rate, to the point that 50 years or so would have left what was then called Palestine a deserted wasteland. It was the return of the Jewish people and the creation of the modern nation of Israel that prevented this, and I guess some of them just can't stand knowing they wouldn't any of them be around to argue the point if it weren't for the Jews whom so many of them hate saving their miserable hides.

[Grizzly]

Remember what I said above, about the complexities surrounding Hamas and the PA?

[Luis Dias]

But those are not "complexities", those are horrible moral failures by the arab states and the palestinians. Every time someone mentions all of these failures, it's a "complex problem", everytime someone mentions Israel's failures, it's a humans' rights issue that israelis should apologize for.

[LaineyBugsDaddy]

What complexity? The Palestinian Authority IS Hamas. Whether through actual support or intimidation tactics or even (possibly) bribery, they got the palestinian arabs to VOTE THEM IN and they are the PA. There's no complexity there at all.

[Grizzly]

What complexity? The Palestinian Authority IS Hamas. Whether through actual support or intimidation tactics or even (possibly) bribery, they got the palestinian arabs to VOTE THEM IN and they are the PA. There's no complexity there at all.

Nope. Hamas is in Gaza. The PA is a severely crippled shell in the west bank. That's what makes it so grrrworthy: There is no singular authority that the Palestinians answer to. The "Palestinians" are not one unified people but rather divided trough Hamas, PA and Israeli authority. But the situation in the West Bank (which is the one that is being discussed) and the situation in Gaza is very different, as is the PA's and Hamas's goals: Hamas has stated that it has no interest in a two state solution, the PA has.

But those are not "complexities", those are horrible moral failures by the arab states and the palestinians. Every time someone mentions all of these failures, it's a "complex problem", everytime someone mentions Israel's failures, it's a humans' rights issue that israelis should apologize for.

The Arab states are just as responsible for the situation in the west bank as Israel is (although they haven't been involved for a while wihlst Israel has). But see above. That's in part why a two-state solution is preferable to most of the world: A Palestinian state means that there's someone to actually hold accountable, just like Israel and the Arab states are responsible for the decisions made by the people that work for their governments. And ... err - the violence perpetuated on the palestinian end of things is denounced all the time. If you want to argue that there's an assymetry in the world's reactions, you would be right - There is an assymetry because the situation itself is assymetrical. Browse back trough the years (you can alter the url to 2015, for instance). It's not like either Hamas or the PA is underrepresented there.

The difference this year is that the UN resolution this year passed. Usually the US vetoes anything that critiques Israel, but this year Netanyahu exploded simply because the UN dared to mention that Israel is going too far in the west bank, calling it a decleration of war. It's in this light that the discussions rests. The debate on the national level in the western world never revolves around whether Hamas should be condemned: It always is. The question is whether the actions of Hamas or palestinians in the west bank justify Israel's responses.

[LaineyBugsDaddy]

You want to try that again? Abbas is a known member of Hamas. If the PA is a crippled shell, it's because Hamas wants it that way. Also explain how if Hamas =/= the PA, why the PA pays the families of Hamas "martyrs" who die killing Israelis. I think it's fairly obvious that the crippled shell government thing is a false front.

[Grizzly]

Abbas is a member of Fatah, not Hamas. And no, they aren't the same thing. This is not really what being the same thing looks like.

I think it's fairly obvious that the crippled shell government thing is a false front.

Unless you are suddenly going to shout that there is no Israeli presence in the West Bank, it really isn't. The west bank is subdivided into different parts where the PA and Israel has authority. The PA is a crippled government of the west bank as it does not actually control most of the west bank.

[Sandwich]

Completely off-topic:

I just want to interject here that I truly appreciate you all, even those of you I have vehement disagreements with. It's actually somewhat reminiscent of Middle-Eastern culture; people can have a loud debate, filled with energetically gesturing hand-waving and hostile body language—and then call it settled and go grab a cup of coffee together as the bestest of friends.

I don't know if our rapport here is quite at that level, but it's darned close.

<3

[Unknown Target]

You're ridiculous but it's nice to have you around.

[Scotty]

It occurs to me that the 'mods and admins yelling at each other' portion of this thread is going to be really difficult to parse for future readers.

[jr2]

@all:  You know most Conservative types just leave this place alone as far as posting their views, right?  You have effectively created an echo chamber, with only a few open minds to question the brigading that happens whenever a conservative / right leaning voice speaks (which I don't know why they even bother any more, most just do what Razor's Kiss and others have done and bugger off, or what I do and just stay out of areas where their opinion isn't welcome.).

If you want proof, just look at the shockingly mild advice Goober gave to everyone here and how well it was received.

To Bobboau: someone has taken exception to the phrase "****ing death cult" as being highly inflammatory.  Try not to be so... er... succinct, I guess.

To Phantom Hoover: kindly do not accuse someone who has posted about a tragic incident directly affecting his family and his neighborhood as "trolling".

To everyone: please keep in mind that everyone has strong, even passionate feelings about things being discussed in the thread.  You might want to reread what you write before you post it.

EDIT: I should say, this thread has mellowed out somewhat in the last page and half or so.  :shrug:  Until the next wave of tirades, I guess.

[Grizzly]

There are more US conservatives on this forum then there are people with similar views in dutch politics .

I'm not even joking, actually: If I would characterize the US conservative wing, there is simply no faction in Dutch politics that both argues a strong adherence to the principles of the constitution, a lack of support from the government on social issues (I was going to say "Economic issues" but Trump's current statements on manufacturing jobs does depart from that paradigm) and is aggressively interventionist and anti-muslim.

There have been several people who have stated their support for the Republican party. There are no such people who have stated their support for the Democratic party: Most, if not all, arguments against Trump have come from people who do not live in the US. There are several people who have stated that they believe Jesus Christ to be the messias. There are several people who have stated to be atheïstic. There are no people who have stated to be Muslim, Buddhist or Hindu. All of the gendisc posters come from what is characterized as 'The west" with the exception of Karajorma, who has only recently started living in China. Nearly all of the active posters are men.

My point is: US conservatives on this forum are rather well presented considering their rather small numbers compared to the sheer size of the world.

[Phantom Hoover]

@all:  You know most Conservative types just leave this place alone as far as posting their views, right?  You have effectively created an echo chamber, with only a few open minds to question the brigading that happens whenever a conservative / right leaning voice speaks

probably if the conservatives learned to bring facts that backed up their beliefs it would go better for them

[karajorma]

That's not true for all the conservatives on here, but it is often a cause of dispute.

If you want proof, just look at the shockingly mild advice Goober gave to everyone here and how well it was received.

To Bobboau: someone has taken exception to the phrase "****ing death cult" as being highly inflammatory.  Try not to be so... er... succinct, I guess.

The cause of the problem was that the advice was too mild actually.