Author Topic: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court  (Read 2412 times)

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Offline Sandwich

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Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
I ran across this article and wanted to hear what my largest group of mostly pro-LGBTQ friends thought about it.

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/lauretta-brown/adults-raised-gay-couples-speak-out-against-gay-marriage-federal-court

Never heard of "CNS News" before, but the article links to court document stuff on Scribd, so it seems to be fully legit.

What are your thoughts about these cases, oh wonderful community of varied and diverse opinions? :)
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Offline The E

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
Bad parents are bad, regardless of what gender or sexual orientation they are.

Like, take this:
Quote
In her brief, Dawn Stefanowicz described her experience living in a same-sex household.

“I wasn’t surrounded by average heterosexual couples,” she says in her court brief.  “Dad’s partners slept and ate in our home, and they took me along to meeting places in the LGBT communities. I was exposed to overt sexual activities like sodomy, nudity, pornography, group sex, sadomasochism and the ilk.”

“There was no guarantee that any of my Dad’s partners would be around for long, and yet I often had to obey them,” she said. “My rights and innocence were violated.”

Would this childhood be substantially better if this involved a hetero dad who was unable or unwilling to have long-term relationships with women?

All this shows to me is that raising kids is hard and not something anyone automatically knows how to do, regardless of sexual orientation. It certainly doesn't strike me as a valid reason to strictly define marriage as something between one man and one woman.
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Offline zookeeper

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
What are your thoughts about these cases, oh wonderful community of varied and diverse opinions? :)

Why do you ask, when everyone already pretty much knows every possible response and argument they might hear from everyone else?

But fine, I'll humour you: the article doesn't contain or refer to any reasons to oppose legalization of same-sex marriage. It cites people who apparently had crappy parent(s) in a same-sex relationship(s), who for some unstated reason are now campaigning against same-sex marriage categorically. I guess they think same-sex marriage is bad? What other thoughts are there to be had?

The third last paragraph contains something resembling arguments, but everyone knows that everyone knows that those are just two of the typical fallacies you can expect someone to voice in a same-sex marriage discussion and don't actually hold water. So it just seems pretty obvious to me that the article doesn't provide anything new to have thoughts about. Some childred of parents in same-sex relationships oppose same-sex marriage? Uh... okay. So? Is this supposed to be surprising, unexpected, unusual, or somehow different from, say, some gun owners calling for increased gun control?
« Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 08:49:45 am by zookeeper »

 

Offline An4ximandros

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
I was raised by lesbians, they never withheld me from heterosexuality or forced me to see all their "gay-only" friends (My moms were not swingers, they got together and had a monogamous relationship.)

My father on the other hand, constantly berated me and treated me like **** for not being manly. He verbally and physically abused me. Saying something he didn't like meant being locked in a room during lunch or dinner all alone and not being fed some days.

The joke was on him though, he was the one trading partners constantly and partying because he could not accept that my mom could have a happy stable relationship with a woman. Or that when I finally left him behind on my birth country, despite all the years he spent punishing me for being a sissy, I came out as transgender and am currently transitioning.

Getting rid of my father helped me feel like I was a human being. But it took 8 years for my self image to heal.

If someone dares to say that gay couples are inherently lesser to straight ones at parenting, I can say from experience... you are full of ****.

 

Offline 0rph3u5

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
Children of homosexual single parents speaking out against their parent's/parents' sexuality is not a novel thing, esspecially if horrible parenting is involved.

Often however the sexuality of parent is overstated as the cause of all the wrongs because it is an easily identified feature, that caused the parent/parents not to fit the expecations set by points of comparision. Sometimes that even overshadows more valid complains against the parents (e.g. alcoholism) or obsucres the effects other persons had somewhere in there (e.g. homophobe grandparents).

Most importantly, I think, is in the evaluating these stories is that homosexuals haven't been openly raising children for very long and are only a marginal fraction of the population. As such the absolute numbers are small and every outlier seems more significant.

(And just as there is no definite guideline for hetro-parents, only lots of good advice, there is none for homosexual parents either, and even less good advice)
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Offline -Joshua-

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
The joke was on him though, he was the one trading partners constantly and partying because he could not accept that my mom could have a happy stable relationship with a woman. Or that when I finally left him behind on my birth country, despite all the years he spent punishing me for being a sissy, I came out as transgender and am currently transitioning.

Good luck :)

---

Also, on another note: I do know one (1) person who was adopted into an homosexual couple after being neglected rather badly by his heterosexual parents. I don't feel the need to deny others that same oppertunity simply because in some cases, things went bad.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 10:41:39 am by -Joshua- »

 

Offline Black Wolf

Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
So, you post an article from an openly biased right wing news source (literally 60 seconds googling will tell you that they are hardly neutral) quoting four self selected individuals recounting anecdotes about their lives... and you think his will be meaningful?

How? Why? What substantial, valuable or useful information does this article provide? Is there anything like proper scientific rigour here? Does the article tell us anything at all about the likelihood of outcomes for other children raised in same-sex homes, or does it just tell us about the experiences of these - and I cant stress this enough - self selected individuals?

You are, or should be after the events of the last 12 months or so, smart enough to know what you're being fed here isn't news - it's nothing more than propaganda.
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Offline Blue Lion

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
Well right off the bat, the fact they put it as "gay 'marriage'" is kinda funny to me. (Cause they're not really married you see, but this a balanced article)

But really, right here at the start it falls apart for me. "All four argued that redefining marriage to include same-sex couples would harm children by depriving them of a mother or father." Single parents exist and removing gay marriage won't magically give them other parents. Unless they plan on passing some law that parents of children MUST be married the gay marriage part has almost nothing to do with that.

I also checked for "divorce" or "single parent" in the article since these are far, FAR more likely to lead to children without the daily dose of "both sex parents" they seem to be arguing about but found zero mentions.

Therefore I will have to fall back on what others have said there. This is the children of a few fundamentalist LGBTQ parents (maybe, we don't hear from them) who didn't like their upbringing (possibly due to crappy parenting). What I don't see is any justification for removing gay marriage, unless you count "If we don't, it'll be normal and then we can't remove it".

If the argument is keeping kids in dual parent homes, there are much, much greater issues to deal with if you want to travel that road (not a lot of people do) that includes divorce, if one parent dies or some other mishap occurs, children raised by grandparents or relatives for any number of reasons, in vitro etc.

It really just seems like crappy parenting is being as an excuse to hit what they really want to hit, gay rights. You could just as easily walk over to any other group and find fringe elements but a call to remove their rights would be just as dumb.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
It's so incredible that this reads exactly like how every single right wing propaganda would have imagined it would read. Wait.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
And an article on how the Earth is flat would be responded to with all the arguments a flat-Earther would have imagined they'd hear. What's your point?
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Offline Phantom Hoover

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
i was raised by parents who thought the earth was round and i'd like to speak out about the harm it caused me
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Offline -Joshua-

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
i was raised by parents who thought the earth was round and i'd like to speak out about the harm it caused me

That first time you found a moderately sized hill must have been awfull.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
What's your point?

Here's my point. The conservative argument is that with every single major social change, there are unintended consequences. And statistically, it's way more probable that changes will be for the worse than for the good (imagine changing an unknown spaghetti code variable). But, and this is my point, the conservative argument should stop here, but they don't. They imagine a really simple story on how these systems will change and (obviously) collapse in a very straightforward and simplistic manner.

And one of those stories is how lesbian and gay parents will drown their children with pornography, general degeneracy and cripple their entire childhood. "An attack on the family", etc. Now, I do have a conservative instinct that does indeed tell me that if you do change this spaghetti code of society, something bad will happen that wasn't foreseen. But the likelihood that it exactly matches the conservative story I've outlined here and that was shared on and on and on by the christian conservatives throughout the last decades is... ****ing suspicious.

 

Offline Blue Lion

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
See I don't mind that. "Hey, this sweeping law rights some wrongs, but could have some weird unintended consequences, we should be prepared for some of them."

And I'm sorry but what does this mean? "And one of those stories is how lesbian and gay parents will drown their children with pornography, general degeneracy and cripple their entire childhood." Are you paraphrasing the article to show how silly that sounds or do you think this a thing that happens in great numbers? Cause I'm going to go on a limb and say I don't know if I've heard a great deal about gay couples being awash in porn and things.

If they are, I have several angry messages to send to my gay friends for not letting me in on this. Hiding that and pretending to be.... just people. The nerve.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
Well I think I was clear enough. Please try to re read and understand what I wrote.

 

Offline Blue Lion

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
I must have had a stroke or something. I reread that several times and that's why I was confused. Maybe it's worded weird for me? That's why I asked, benefit of the doubt and all.

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
I believe Luis's point (and correct me if I'm dumb) is that, given the paranoid narrative that so many conservative groups have been pushing regarding gay marriage, having cases that match said narrative word-for-word is just a liiiittle bit suspicious.

 

Offline Blue Lion

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
I assume it to mean "published as an article". I have no doubt these kinds people of exist in real life and their hardships are true. Fundies on all sides are kinda meh.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
What's your point?

Here's my point. The conservative argument is that with every single major social change, there are unintended consequences. And statistically, it's way more probable that changes will be for the worse than for the good (imagine changing an unknown spaghetti code variable). But, and this is my point, the conservative argument should stop here, but they don't. They imagine a really simple story on how these systems will change and (obviously) collapse in a very straightforward and simplistic manner.

And one of those stories is how lesbian and gay parents will drown their children with pornography, general degeneracy and cripple their entire childhood. "An attack on the family", etc. Now, I do have a conservative instinct that does indeed tell me that if you do change this spaghetti code of society, something bad will happen that wasn't foreseen. But the likelihood that it exactly matches the conservative story I've outlined here and that was shared on and on and on by the christian conservatives throughout the last decades is... ****ing suspicious.

Okay, fair enough. Your first post was really unclear as to what you meant, especially because you said right wing rather than conservative. So it's not really surprising that people are having trouble getting your meaning. The whole idea of a real conservative viewpoint is supposed to be "Society works at the moment, let's not change it cause even with the problems it has, any change could easily make things worse."

Thing is, we've not seen much in the way of real conservatives in years. The right wing want all kinds of changes these days.


That said, I agree with your point. I don't see any logical reason why gay families should have any more porn than hetero ones for instance.
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
I personally know about a dozen people who are now ****ED UP as a result of their Christian up bringing (including that one I had a conversation with you about a year ago if you remember her), and as an enemy of all religion I welcome the precedent you want to set of removing children from parents on the grounds that the parents are not absolutely perfect, when the liberals get back in power this will be just the thing for crushing Christianity once and for all.
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