Author Topic: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court  (Read 2393 times)

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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
You can almost hear the screeching noises he was making while reading An4's comment...

 

Offline -Joshua-

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
Personally I'm of the mind that an adult is free to do with their body as they see fit, but I'm also of the mind that the medical community should be a lot more conservative than most would like it to be. That is, to be more skeptical of these novelties in the "research" departments, which are filled with social science papers...

You mean dismiss research just because it tells you some inconvenient truths? :P

Regardless, the science backing the way current sex reassignments work is quite old: The notion* that transgender is a "Man's brain in a woman's body" (or vice versa) has been around since 1995, and the existence of transgenders themselves has been known for quite a long time before that. The medical field is conservative when it comes to applying sex reassignment theory: They have to be! It's a process that is irreversible the moment the first hormone therapy is induced (although you can still back out of it, the hormone's effects are lasting). The full process takes several years, and a lot of that are preliminary psychological research to find out if the reassignment therapy actually is the right choice.

I too am apprehensive with the suggestion that sex reassignment could be applied at a younger age, but the sex reasignments that have been done universally point to a "sooner rather then later" approach as being the most viable one. That is a very interesting ethical dilemma.

* and by notion I mean "Discovered trough research"
« Last Edit: January 24, 2017, 09:06:50 am by -Joshua- »

 

Offline 666maslo666

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
and people think that homosexuality is something you are born with
It is.  This is an objective fact.  If you believe otherwise, you are wrong.

Is that one of them alternative facts? Because that is quite a big claim considering that causes of homosexuality are still poorly understood and likely multiple. It may be caused by genetics, environment, both prenatal and early childhood.. So whether people are born with it is debatable.

What is important is that no matter the cause, being gay (and sexual desires in general) is not a choice. Not only is this established much more reliably than causes of homosexuality, it is also much more relevant for the ethics of it, IMHO.
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
Personally I'm of the mind that an adult is free to do with their body as they see fit, but I'm also of the mind that the medical community should be a lot more conservative than most would like it to be. That is, to be more skeptical of these novelties in the "research" departments, which are filled with social science papers...

You mean dismiss research just because it tells you some inconvenient truths? :P

Of course not. Here, let me help you:

Quote
Regardless, the science backing the way current sex reassignments work is quite old: The notion* that transgender is a "Man's brain in a woman's body" (or vice versa) has been around since 1995, and the existence of transgenders themselves has been known for quite a long time before that. The medical field is conservative when it comes to applying sex reassignment theory: They have to be! It's a process that is irreversible the moment the first hormone therapy is induced (although you can still back out of it, the hormone's effects are lasting). The full process takes several years, and a lot of that are preliminary psychological research to find out if the reassignment therapy actually is the right choice.

... yeah. Exactly what I said. Thanks. Me, personally, I find the "Man brain trapped in a woman's body" an idea filled with philosophical problems, but I obviously recognize the dissonance that so many people report having in their lives between what they think they are and ... what they see in the mirror. I also accept that changing one's body may well be the best answer, I'm just really conservative about it.

Quote
I too am apprehensive with the suggestion that sex reassignment could be applied at a younger age, but the sex reasignments that have been done universally point to a "sooner rather then later" approach as being the most viable one. That is a very interesting ethical dilemma.

Yes, yes it is an interesting discussion, and you can already understand the ethical issue. It might be stated in some papers that sooner, the better, but wonder what would happen if they start having false positives? The horror of such a case! Imagine people like that growing up and when they reach 20 year of age, committing suicide. And what is the ethical consequence of changing a child's sex, when they are still quite unaware of these things themselves? I'm all for adult self-responsibility, but dealing with children is ... ****ing eery.

 

Online Scotty

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
It's okay to be conservative about it, but I think it's very important to realize that ultimately the decision is not yours, its whoever decides to transition.  I've heard that the best window is "before puberty", because it's easier to suppress hormones than it is to undo changes they effect, but that still leaves a period of potentially years for someone to realize gender dysphoria.

The thing I was mad at S-99 about was not him being conservative, it was him being a condescending asshole to An4aximandros while expressing said conservative viewpoint.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
I agree, I'm very liberal regarding what adults might do on their body.

Here's my only two caveats, summed up:

- Some skepticism towards doctors advising for transitioning (helping, 100%; actively advising for it, I'm really skeptical);
- Very, very, very skeptical towards diagnosing *and* transitioning teenagers.

 

Offline Phantom Hoover

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
It's okay to be conservative about it, but I think it's very important to realize that ultimately the decision is not yours, its whoever decides to transition.  I've heard that the best window is "before puberty", because it's easier to suppress hormones than it is to undo changes they effect, but that still leaves a period of potentially years for someone to realize gender dysphoria.

Your second point substantially undermines your first: children do not have autonomy over their bodies and do not have responsibility for deciding whether or not they transition. Even adults, who are generally considered to be capable of assuming responsibility for their own bodies, are still only able to do so within certain parameters (adults are not free to commit suicide or self-harm if their reasons are classified as 'mental illness'), and even beyond that it's a different question whether a doctor should be obliged to assist them. It's not a simple ethical issue, you can't just say "A is A" and reason your way to a universal conclusion about it. Sex reassignment should be allowed and supported for prepubescent children if it can be proven to cause less harm than the alternative, not on the basis of sophistry about 'rights'.
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Offline BlueFlames

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
- Very, very, very skeptical towards diagnosing *and* transitioning teenagers.

Doctors who follow the American Psychological Association's diagnosis and treatment guidelines don't immediately transition children or adolescents upon diagnosis of gender dysphoria.  Young children are never given horomones or surgery, and only starting at about age twelve can puberty blockers be prescribed to minimize the amount of permenant physical changes that happen, before the person is ultimately allowed to decide whether or not to continue transitioning in adulthood.  The entire idea behind the treatment of trans youth is to stop anything permenant from happening, until they reach adulthood, so that if they decide to transition, they can do so as completely as they wish, or if they decide not to, then they haven't done anything irreversible.

 

Online Scotty

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
@Phantom_Hoover: Fair point.  I think the more important nugget to take away from it, however, is that the proverbial "you" don't get to define policy, in either the general or the specific sense.

BlueFlames did a better job than I did on the subject.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
Truth is if you are born a man, it is an impossibility to change your sex.

Actually, it's quite easy to change your sex.

Things you can't easily change (if at all; research is still ongoing):
- Gender identity (as a result of gender dysphoria).
- Sexual attraction (suppression is possible, "reprogramming" does not appear to be, nor is it ethically permissible).
- Sex chromosome dosage*

*However, since the Y chromosome doesn't express that many genes and it's actually possible to be male without one (and female with one), expressing those genes or simply injecting their products - e.g. upping or suppressing the testosterone dosage as desired - will produce the desired physiological effect, and surgery can take care of the external features.  As for reproduction... well, we have all kinds of ways around that thorny issue these days too.

Physiology can be changed.  A person's thoughts, personality, and identity?  Even if they could be changed (and severe injuries can do it), it's ethically and morally reprehensible to do so, generally speaking.
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
The problem is gender dysphoria has become a 'trendy' disease. Like gluten intolerance,  or Aspergers syndrome, all of a sudden there is a huge spike in people who say they have it and many people are determined to prove they have it and the supposed years of testing can be easily bypassed by shopping for a doctor who will agree to your presumed diagnossis. I'm fine with people who want to modify their bodies, but they do not get to demand other people treat them in a certain way and the concept of this applying to children from parents, especially parents who want to do the right thing and simply follow the recent trends does disturb me.

Now I do have a few questions for people. How is this different from more generalized dysphoria disorders, like the people who feel like they shouldn't have their right leg. And how is it different from other kin where people claim they have the soul/mind of a wolf/hawk/dragon in the body of a human?
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Online Scotty

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
Hey Bob I have no doubt that you believe what you just wrote, but I'd appreciate it if you could cite sources for anything you just said.  It seems like an important piece of information that should exist somewhere.

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
I was just coming to edit in a link :)
"all of a sudden there is a huge spike in people who say they have it" - http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-35532491

My comment about doctor shopping comes from personal experience, I had a friend who has become much more manly that when we first met. Interestingly the reason we no longer talk has nothing to do with this topic, but is because of Israel.

everything else I said was a statement of principal or a question.
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Online Scotty

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
So, and this may sound like moving the goalposts but bear with me for a second, can you correlate the increased number of referrals with an increased incidence of gender dysphoria?  It seems to me that, much like diagnoses on the autism spectrum, the ability to identify it has increased significantly in the past few years.  Funny you mention something like Asperger's in the same breath, actually.

In order for this to be a 'trendy' sort of thing, it must be discovered that many of them do not, in fact, have it.  That's kind of important, and I'd be very interested in seeing any data that supports that.  Gluten intolerance I'll absolutely agree with you on, but that's because we actually have data disproving the popular conception (that is to say, Celiac's Disease or you shouldn't actually care).  Asperger's (and other autism spectrum diagnoses) we can point to an expanded definition of autism over the last couple decades, and an improved detection method in younger children.

I also note that the article goes out of its way to note that physical changes are disallowed until the individual hits puberty, so the objection about "applying to children from the parents" seems to fall a little bit flat.  What are you going to do when your eight/nine/ten/twelve year old son tells you he doesn't feel right being treated as a boy?  Tell him "too bad, you'll just have to be miserable"?

Truth be told, I imagine it wouldn't be quite as widespread if we collectively as a society didn't rigidly enforce gender roles so damn hard. :P

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
So, and this may sound like moving the goalposts but bear with me for a second, can you correlate the increased number of referrals with an increased incidence of gender dysphoria?  It seems to me that, much like diagnoses on the autism spectrum, the ability to identify it has increased significantly in the past few years.  Funny you mention something like Asperger's in the same breath, actually.

Funnily enough I was halfway through typing the exact same argument before I got called away and found you'd ninja'd me.
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Offline 666maslo666

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
And how is it different from other kin where people claim they have the soul/mind of a wolf/hawk/dragon in the body of a human?

It is different because humans do have two sexes and thus it is plausible that the mechanism behind their development may screw up and the result is a "mixed" human with actual dysphoria. Thats not the case with otherkin.
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
Increases in diagnosis of autism also has to do with the fact that the definition of autism changed. Oh, 'gender' is no longer a biological fact but a social construct? Well, that is an interesting parallel. Although it's not perfect because there is about a 40 year gap between that change of definition and the resulting change in measurement. But without that change in definition the very concept of transgender/non-binary would be almost if not completely impossible.
There are more people today, by an order of magnitude, who call themselves some sort of trans or non-binary. That is a fact. You seem not to be challenging it now so I think I can say that. If you want to say that there used to be people who were but who didn't apply the label fine we can have that argument, but the concept is much more in the popular zeitgeist, people are more likely to say "i'm not a woman" despite their having all of the hardware necessary to birth a child and have said child reach an age to feed it's self.

Asperger's also had a lot of self-diagnosed individuals. There are a lot of self diagnosed trans-gendered people. and how do you suggest proving or disproving someone was supposed to be the opposite sex or not? All we have currently people claiming it to be so, and more of them than before.

People are both being made to feel like conforming to gender roles is an inherently bad thing by popular culture, while being pressured to do it by their social circle, and given different roles by different circles, and being told that if you feel like the opposite sex you are. people who in times past would simply be an effeminate man or a tomboyish girl are now being given a new social norm to conform to in that they should become the opposite sex despite the fact that our technology is no way near being able to actually accomplish anything more than cosmetic changes that require expensive lifelong maintenance.

What does "being treated as a boy" mean? How would an 8 year old have a deep and nuanced enough understanding of gender roles to even formulate that concept? Wouldn't they say something more like "I don't like playing sports" or "I like baking".

Our society DOESN'T collectively enforce gender roles, we as a whole are very inconsistent about it with some elements trying to rigidly enforce traditional roles and other elements trying desperately to smash them. But one thing we are consistent about is caring about it at all, very few aspects of society are apathetic about it.
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
It is different because humans do have two sexes and thus it is plausible that the mechanism behind their development may screw up and the result is a "mixed" human with actual dysphoria. Thats not the case with otherkin.

but they actually are a particular sex (ignoring the extremely rare condition of actual physical intersex), and they feel like the other. I fail to see the distinction. In all cases you 'feel' like you are 'supposed' to be something physically that you are not with no regard for if that is physically possible or not. Although I suppose the people who want to be amputees are lucky in that sense.
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Offline The E

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
ITT: People with no real understanding of psychological issues labelling things they don't believe in as fake.
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
This is a very confusing yet interesting topic to me.

Here are some things that mind**** me, particularly:

1. There's a lot of talk on how gender is fluid and sex isn't determined biologically. We all remember that christian psychologist canadian teacher being harrassed in universities for daring to suggest that it is. How does this idea merge with the idea that one can have a male brain inside a female body and vice-versa? These things aren't supposed to exist in the first place.

It doesn't, period. And yet, it seems the superego of the current cultural climate is telling us to believe those two ideas at the same time. I find this psychotic.

2. If Gender dysphoria is an incompatibility between mind and body, and if mind is itself material (it is a brain), then isn't it possible that the "problem" rests in the brain, and not the body? What is the ethical or moral difference between trying to fix the body or trying to fix the brain?

It seems to me that people are still clinging to some kind of dualism here that amuses my brain and my body.

(Personally I take all of these ideas as tentative, ergo, possible and of consideration and probably imperfect in themselves, ergo, not dogmatic as the wider society seems to demand of me).