Author Topic: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court  (Read 2387 times)

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Offline AdmiralRalwood

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
The idea that being trans is "trendy" would be laughable if it weren't actively harmful. Yeah, I've heard it's super fun to come out as trans! The increased harassment and higher probabilities of murder and suicide sound like huge perks.
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
it is, when you have the right social circles.
and it gives you power over other people, this is another aspect feeding into the trendyness. You've actually just demonstrated how this works "The increased harassment and higher probabilities of murder and suicide sound like huge perks" if you come out as trans you get to claim this victim status, you get to use that to shame anyone who doesn't show you deference. Shaming tactics are a harmful tool that have been employed for thousands of years to control people, the Catholics were particularly good at it. I don't respond well to it though.
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
To be fair, in order for someone to fall into doing that kind of social strategy, one is already mentally deranged in some very extreme manner.

"Hey, I'm gonna do this irreversible risky operation and mess up with all my hormones and whatnots, just so that I can get on with my social circles" seems kinda messed up, bigly.

 

Offline The E

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
It's also something that I suspect happens more often in the imagination of internet posters than it does in reality.
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Offline BlueFlames

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
It's also something that I suspect happens more often in the imagination of internet posters than it does in reality.

We are learning quite a lot about the phantoms that haunt Bobboau's dreams, aren't we?

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
or people I know.
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Offline -Joshua-

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
This is a very confusing yet interesting topic to me.

Here are some things that mind**** me, particularly:

1. There's a lot of talk on how gender is fluid and sex isn't determined biologically. We all remember that christian psychologist canadian teacher being harrassed in universities for daring to suggest that it is. How does this idea merge with the idea that one can have a male brain inside a female body and vice-versa? These things aren't supposed to exist in the first place.

You're conflating a few things here, but it's difficult to unpack so *huge breath* here we go:
The notion of having a "male mind inside a female body" has to do with what dimorphism means: Your brain was programmed with the notion that you have a male body whilst you don't. Your mind is also programmed to think that you have arms - even when you don't, which is known as "phantom limbs". Please do bear in mind that the "Man's brain inside a woman's body" is a very simplified explanation of the phenomenon.

Sex is determined biologically, but it isn't hardcoded. The classical explanation that an XX chromosome results in a lady and a XY chromosone results in a gentleman is overly simplified: It discounts the existence of XXY, XXX, XYY and other chromosone combinations, and it discounts that the evolution of your sex is a complex process that takes a rather long time to come into full swing. If it were an exact process, the Olympics wouldn't have to ban women from competing in the women's Olympics for being too manly (and actually they shouldn't, but they do). If it were a hardcoded process, transgenders, hermaphrodites and androgynous people would not exist, but they do. These are all biological processes: The assertion is simply that there is no one biological process that leads to a pre-determined outcome, but rather that the outcome of the process is unique to the individual.

Gender is something that wildly varies across different cultures: Some accept the existence of more then two, some are very strict in their definitions, and all are quite different from one another. The latest issue of the National Geographic explained this in detail (And in fact, explains *a lot* of this thread in detail), so I'm just going to defer to that if you don't mind :)

(and if you do mind I'm still going to defer to that one :D)

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
I'm on board with what you said (mildly, I'm still slightly bemused with this differentiating notion that sex isn't gender, which strikes me as semantical politics, rather than a scientific finding, but whatever rocks people's boats), which makes us both very very wrong in the eyes of the gender fluid community, who will adamantly demand everyone to agree that biological sex is a social construct.

Biological sex being a social construct is at odds with the gender dysphoria phenomenon. That people make up convoluted reasonings to avoid this contradiction is their problem.

 

Offline Phantom Hoover

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
I'm sort of on board with Luis here, if people can have 'a man's brain in a woman's body' then isn't that strong evidence that gender is deeply ingrained in an individual's psychology, not some fluid social construct? The fact that a lot of the 'third genders' in various cultures fall under the broad description of 'male passing as female' makes me think similarly.
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Offline -Joshua-

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
I'm on board with what you said (mildly, I'm still slightly bemused with this differentiating notion that sex isn't gender, which strikes me as semantical politics, rather than a scientific finding, but whatever rocks people's boats),

That's not "semantical politics", that's "having different words for different things". The debate over these past centuries has always been one about nature vs nurture. Finding the boundaries between the two first requires defining what those aspects actually are. Again, NatGeo is your friend.

Quote
which makes us both very very wrong in the eyes of the gender fluid community, who will adamantly demand everyone to agree that biological sex is a social construct.
Biological sex being a social construct is at odds with the gender dysphoria phenomenon. That people make up convoluted reasonings to avoid this contradiction is their problem.

I have only ever heard people from the gender fluid community say that gender is a social construct. That's why they are called the gender fluid community, and gender is, in part, the process of how we as a society look at biological sex. But okay, if there's people who say that, that's their problem.

I'm sort of on board with Luis here, if people can have 'a man's brain in a woman's body' then isn't that strong evidence that gender is deeply ingrained in an individual's psychology, not some fluid social construct? The fact that a lot of the 'third genders' in various cultures fall under the broad description of 'male passing as female' makes me think similarly.

Ignoring the whole gender thing for a while (I did explain a bit in a previous post that should provide an answer), why do you think that social constructs and deep ingraining in an individual's psychology are mutually exclusive? It's perfectly possible to ingrain a social construct into an individual's psychology by virtue of their upbringing and the culture they reside in.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 07:28:51 am by -Joshua- »

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
I'm on board with what you said (mildly, I'm still slightly bemused with this differentiating notion that sex isn't gender, which strikes me as semantical politics, rather than a scientific finding, but whatever rocks people's boats),

That's not "semantical politics", that's "having different words for different things". The debate over these past centuries has always been one about nature vs nurture. Finding the boundaries between the two first requires defining what those aspects actually are. Again, NatGeo is your friend.

So you say, I remain unconvinced. Of course that sex is something determined by biology and culture and that how we view these things are very rich and nuanced and so on. The differentiation strikes me as a political maneuver to let people experiment with all of these nuances while letting others deal with the scientific material biological realities. IOW, the whole brouhaha is sketched on top of dualism. Which also strikes me as incredibly anachronistic, that we in the 21st century, are still fancying these supernatural tendencies as a ways to look at people.

Quote
I have only ever heard people from the gender fluid community say that gender is a social construct. That's why they are called the gender fluid community, and gender is, in part, the process of how we as a society look at biological sex. But okay, if there's people who say that, that's their problem.

Yeah, I'd imagine you'd diminish the social importance of the people who are claiming these contradictory things, as a clean way to handwave the issue.

Quote
Ignoring the whole gender thing for a while (I did explain a bit in a previous post that should provide an answer), why do you think that social constructs and deep ingraining in an individual's psychology are mutually exclusive? It's perfectly possible to ingrain a social construct into an individual's psychology by virtue of their upbringing and the culture they reside in.

You're arguing against the wrong people, Joshua. Normal people already believe what you just said.

 

Offline -Joshua-

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
Quote
The differentiation strikes me as a political maneuver to let people experiment with all of these nuances while letting others deal with the scientific material biological realities. IOW, the whole brouhaha is sketched on top of dualism. Which also strikes me as incredibly anachronistic, that we in the 21st century, are still fancying these supernatural tendencies as a ways to look at people.

Hey, the difference was first coined in 1955. I am not sure what political plays were happening at the time, but i'm sure it predates what you are alluding to.

Quote
Yeah, I'd imagine you'd diminish the social importance of the people who are claiming these contradictory things, as a clean way to handwave the issue.

But, they don't have any social importance. You're bringing up fringe elements of a fringe (gender fluid) of a subset (transgender/queer) of LGBT culture (which in itself isn't all that big to begin with).
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 09:27:13 am by -Joshua- »

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
Oh, my gripes were obviously directed at dualism, which is the main culprit here.

But, they don't have any social importance. You're bringing up fringe elements of a fringe (gender fluid) of a subset (transgender/queer) of LGBT culture (which in itself isn't all that big to begin with).

They're getting quite some traction on academia. Ignore it at will.

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
yeah, the entire field of 'gender studies' is basically just an elaboration this one concept.
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
I've never heard anyone outside of a few extreme individual anecdotes refer to sex as fluid.  Sex is determined biologically, but - as detailed previously - is easy to change.

Gender is a social construct - roles, responsibilities, and relationships to (the) other gender(s) are social phenomena.
Gender identity, by contrast, is a mixture of biological development, psychological development, and social inputs.

The trouble comes from trying to simplify and silo these concepts.  In reality, there appears to be mixed pieces of biology, psychology, and social inputs involved in our development from early ages which determine our unique identities, including our sex, gender identity, and sexual preferences.  Transgender as the idea of "one gender brain in other gender body" is not just oversimplified, its wrong.  Gender dysphoria is the term by which one's biological sexual organs do not match one's self-determined identity.  It appears to have multiple interacting origins, but is at least partially biologically determined and partly socially determined.

The real question anyone should be asking themselves on this issue is the following:

How does it have any bearing on my life if another person, especially a person I do not know intimately, would rather have different physical sex characteristics than they currently do?  What does it matter?  If it makes them happy, how exactly does that HURT you?
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
The real question anyone should be asking themselves on this issue is the following:

How does it have any bearing on my life if another person, especially a person I do not know intimately, would rather have different physical sex characteristics than they currently do?  What does it matter?  If it makes them happy, how exactly does that HURT you?

The only annoying thing about this otherwise very well stated question is that it reads exactly like something written by someone who failed to read the thread before it.

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
Yeah, correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think anyone has said that no one should be allowed to change they way they dress or have elective cosmetic surgery if they so desire.
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Offline Blue Lion

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
One person did but we kinda ignored them.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
The only annoying thing about this otherwise very well stated question is that it reads exactly like something written by someone who failed to read the thread before it.

Not really.  I see substantial handwringing about the motives and politics behind it in the last page and a bit.
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Offline Phantom Hoover

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
I don't think anyone said anything about the right of adults to transition.
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