Author Topic: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court  (Read 2366 times)

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Offline -Joshua-

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
<snip>
« Last Edit: January 29, 2017, 02:04:16 pm by -Joshua- »

 

Offline Phantom Hoover

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
Quite frankly you're arguing in bad faith.
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Offline -Joshua-

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
Quite frankly you're arguing in bad faith.

Well ****, that's not what I intend to do.

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
Not really.  I see substantial handwringing about the motives and politics behind it in the last page and a bit.

I think these people are full of **** != these people are not allowed to have rights
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
I don't think anyone said anything about the right of adults to transition.

I think these people are full of **** != these people are not allowed to have rights

Where precisely did the post Luis replied to mention rights?  In point of fact, that post was an argument to the effect of "why the hell are you people arguing about any of these details/motives/politics when they do not actually concern you in the slightest?"
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
How does it have any bearing on my life if another person, especially a person I do not know intimately, would rather have different physical sex characteristics than they currently do?  What does it matter?  If it makes them happy, how exactly does that HURT you?

we were not responding to Luis, we were responding to you.

I have known several of these people personally. One of them was a fairly close friend. They are never happy. They get meaning out of life by finding new and innovative ways to frame themselves as having the world against them and if they are not miserable that means they are not part of something important. I don't care if they continue, but I'm going to try to prevent other people from following the same path to misery I've seen people I considered my friends go down.
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Offline zookeeper

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
Sandwich, what was your intent when you made this thread and how has it (or hasn't) met your expectations? You dropped a link, knew everything anyone was possibly going to say, and didn't even participate in any of the resulting discussion yourself. In the end, did you actually get something specific out of this thing, and if so, what and how?

 

Offline -Joshua-

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
Coming out of the closet is not easy. Everyone I have met describes the process as finally coming to grips with who they really are, but I do know atleast one person whose parent's response was to kick her out of the house whilst she was still underage. On the other hand, I have seen a few people come out as transgender and find happiness in that. The key difference was that in one case, the culture aforementioned grew up in rejected and abused her, whilst the other cases the cultures are accepting of them. So I geuss I'm the opposite of Bobboau in this, in that I will support coming out simply because I think the consequences of not being supported are devastating.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2017, 05:31:55 pm by -Joshua- »

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
I come from a minority community where the position on coming out is: Don't if you can't deal with getting kicked out of the house. Just deal with you parents in the mean time. Before asserting yourself make sure you can take care of yourself, and when you do, don't be a dick about it.

before responding, I am just saying what it's like to be an atheist with theist parents (this is an especially big issue especially for children of Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses, and there is a lot of crossover with homosexuality too) I am not sying this is or should be applicable to other issues, just mentioning my background.
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Offline Sandwich

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
I had a friend who has become much more manly that when we first met. Interestingly the reason we no longer talk has nothing to do with this topic, but is because of Israel.

Hehe, I lol'ed.... :rolleyes: :lol: (we need a different rolleyes smiley where the guy has a smile or is laughing while rolling eyes, something to convey a "because of course it is..." reaction.)

Sandwich, what was your intent when you made this thread and how has it (or hasn't) met your expectations? You dropped a link, knew everything anyone was possibly going to say, and didn't even participate in any of the resulting discussion yourself. In the end, did you actually get something specific out of this thing, and if so, what and how?

My intent was truly what I stated from the outset. I wanted to find out what people thought about the article. I very quickly became evident that the general consensus was to attribute the negatives mentioned in the article to "bad parenting" rather than "gay parents", which could very well have been the case with the people in the article.

I'm very satisfied with how this thread has progressed. Mostly very civil debate about a highly-touchy subject matter.

The reason I haven't participated in anything is because life is very, very busy for me these days.

What I got from this thread is what I guess could be called a follow-up question, but not so much to the original article, but to the general discussion it spawned. Luis Dias wrote something very similar to my question, but it appears to have gotten overlooked:

2. If Gender dysphoria is an incompatibility between mind and body, and if mind is itself material (it is a brain), then isn't it possible that the "problem" rests in the brain, and not the body? What is the ethical or moral difference between trying to fix the body or trying to fix the brain?

The thought that was rolling around in my non-gender-fluid brain for a few posts before I reached Luis' post was this:

We have various definitions for insanity or other mental illnesses today. We've set various guidelines and boundaries in place. We say "That side is insanity, this side is sanity." At times perhaps we even arbitrarily—or at least according to a bell curve, majority rule, or some other imprecise method of determination—lay down those guidelines.

My question is, why are gender misidentification issues not considered mental illness or ailment of some sort? If, as Luis pointed out, the brain is an organ that can go wrong, how have we determined that gender issues aren't mental illness, but other things are?
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
My null argument for choosing to do such a thing is: it's scientifically, medically easier to help someone live their lifes as the opposite gender rather than trying to fix their brain so that the gender they think they are matches their actual body.

That is, while I indeed posed this question in a philosophical matter, which to me seems rather symmetrical in nature, I have in the back of my head actual current medical constraints and contigencies. And it seems to me that it's still not clear that a psychiatric solution doesn't devolve merely into oppressing someone back to behave properly, or to borrow some other jargon, "go back to the closet, you sissy".

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
I think that the most sensible way to tell mental illnesses from personality quirks is that you're uncomfortable with being mentally ill. So, if a man feels that there's a voice in the back of his head telling him he should be a woman and he wants it to stop, he should go to a psychiatrist. If a man feels like he should be a woman and is fine with it, he should go to a surgeon. In short, mental illnesses are anything you want to cure.

One should note that the above definition does not take into account danger to anyone else. If there's a killer who loves killing and has no problem with it, then mental hospital probably isn't going to help, no matter how crazy that person might be. However, if someone doesn't want to kill but something inside forces him to, then maybe there's still hope for that person. I don't think that any mental illness can be truly cured without full commitment from the patient anyway.

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
My null argument for choosing to do such a thing is: it's scientifically, medically easier to help someone live their lifes as the opposite gender rather than trying to fix their brain so that the gender they think they are matches their actual body.

That is, while I indeed posed this question in a philosophical matter, which to me seems rather symmetrical in nature, I have in the back of my head actual current medical constraints and contigencies. And it seems to me that it's still not clear that a psychiatric solution doesn't devolve merely into oppressing someone back to behave properly, or to borrow some other jargon, "go back to the closet, you sissy".
There's also the philosophical aspect: if you suppose the existence of some amazing neurological switch that could someday be flipped and change something as fundamental as what gender someone views themself as, from a cognitive standpoint, is the person coming out the other side truly the same individual who went in?

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
not any more or less than you are the person you were 5 years ago. I think that is an interesting conversation well outside the bounds of this thread however.
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
It's about the very issue of dualism that I brought up, which is a kind of a left-over from more supersticious times. This idea of how you are "the same person you were before" or not indulges in a kind of platonic contradiction between the belief one is more than just atoms and the stark realisation that we are material indeed. Once you get rid of that dualism, you realise that the fundamental issue of "being" that is being raised is non-existent. The larger concern is to get rid of a source of suffering, namely, gender dysphoria. How to do it is, fundamentally, irrelevant: either you change the body sex or you change the brain. In either case, "you're not the same person as you were before".

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
we were not responding to Luis, we were responding to you.

Which is why I said "where in the post Luis replied to"

Quote
I have known several of these people personally. One of them was a fairly close friend. They are never happy. They get meaning out of life by finding new and innovative ways to frame themselves as having the world against them and if they are not miserable that means they are not part of something important. I don't care if they continue, but I'm going to try to prevent other people from following the same path to misery I've seen people I considered my friends go down.

The fact that you've anecdotally known a few unhappy people has absolutely no bearing on whether or not the broader issue concerns you personally.  It doesn't.  People can make their own choices and unless its a choice you are currently wrestling with your opinion on the subject is utterly irrelevant, which goes right back to my original point about handwringing by parties with no stake in the matter.

@sandwich

Gender dysphoria is a diagnoseable mental illness. http://dsm.psychiatryonline.org/doi/abs/10.1176/appi.books.9780890425596.dsm14

The treatment for it takes various forms, only one of which involves physical changes to the body.
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Offline 666maslo666

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
People can make their own choices and unless its a choice you are currently wrestling with your opinion on the subject is utterly irrelevant, which goes right back to my original point about handwringing by parties with no stake in the matter.

It is a very interesting topic with various ethical implications and thus people are going to discuss it and have an opinion on it. One certainly does not need to suffer from gender dysphoria to have an opinion on it. You are allowed to have opinions even on things that dont personally concern you. I dont need to be an alcoholic to advocate an opinion that excessive drinking is bad (for the record, I dont think transgenderism is inherently bad, this is just an example).

I can turn this question around and ask you "as long as nobody here advocates to limit the legal rights of transgenders, why are you bothered by this discussion about transgenders"?
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
I don't have a problem with discussion, I have a problem with people casting judgment on the validity of other people's personal choices for their own mental health and well-being, which is where the discussion veered (at least briefly), which is also why I posed my original rhetorical question to begin with.  It's like a bunch of humans standing around philosophizing about what it's like to be a jellyfish.  Discussing is not inherently bad, but any values judgements or opinions aren't relevant because you don't actually have any context or meaningful understanding.  Except the jellyfish isn't impacted by these sorts of public discussions, whereas transgendered people are.  HLP has at least one transgendered member, possibly others.  Talking and making values judgments about "them" as if they're some sort of abstract "other" is dehumanizing.
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
So, when someone chooses to become a republican, you have nothing to say about it.
Someone decides to try heroine, none of your business.
They decide to treat their bacterial infection with a homeopathic treatment, that's just fine.
Those are personal choices for their own mental health and well-being.

what about when parents decide not to give their kids vaccines because it'll give them autism?
That has a parallel with parents who raise their 5 year old child as the opposite gender because they are convinced the kid is transgendered... at the age of 5. That has been a subject of the conversation.

You have to understand everyone is the hero of their own story, anything anyone publicly discuss is said because the person saying it thinks that they are right and they are trying to make the world better. I get you see transgendered people as a suffering group of people who are being oppressed by arbitrary social standards, but not everyone agrees with your assessment. I have concerns about the well being of other people in general and so I have a stake in making sure that we don't have a repeat of certain mistakes we have had in the not so distant past, were we praised some new form of therapy to treat a problem only to realize after having caused irreversible harm to millions that it was a bad idea. I have at least  just as much stake as you do.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2017, 12:20:47 pm by Bobboau »
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay Marriage in Federal Court
So, when someone chooses to become a republican, you have nothing to say about it.
Someone decides to try heroine, none of your business.
They decide to treat their bacterial infection with a homeopathic treatment, that's just fine.
Those are personal choices for their own mental health and well-being.

what about when parents decide not to give their kids vaccines because it'll give them autism?
That has a parallel with parents who raise their 5 year old child as the opposite gender because they are convinced the kid is transgendered... at the age of 5. That has been a subject of the conversation.

You just moved the goalposts with a linebreak.

Your first three examples are a person making a [potentially harmful] choice for themselves.  Your second two are someone making a choice for someone else.  You've been talking about the first through the majority of your posts, and now suddenly its about the second?

The psychology/psychiatry professional bodies of the world outright oppose "parental diagnosis" and will not begin to address gender dysphoria in children without an independent diagnosis.  Furthermore, the treatment involves letting the child make their own choices in what to wear and how to identify, and biological intervention is restricted until later in the teen years (when puberty blockers become an option).  That is not to say there is potential for abuse, but again - that's about someone making a choice for someone else.  The majority, if not all, of your examples and anecdotal concerns are not referencing children or choice imposed on someone by a caregiver.
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