Author Topic: Tomorrow is 9/11  (Read 11876 times)

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Offline Mobius

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But a conventional war against the USA is impossible, they have an incredible number of soldiers and weapons. Guerrilla actions are more favorable in this case.
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Offline Turambar

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terrorism is what you need to resort to when your enemy uses cowardly tactics like saturation bombing.

nobody can really fight the US army on equal terms, since nobody in the world puts that much cash into new and inventive ways to kill people.  the result is that they must fight the US on their level, the level where they kill the troops with hidden bombs and by hiding and running.


as for killing civilians, yeah, not really possible to justify that.  we need to go back to fighting wars with swords.  it's kinda hard to knock out a school with collateral damage when you charge in, find the bad guys, and run them through.
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Offline Mobius

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Iraq = guerrilla.

Any other country = terrorism.

Look at this:
http://www.forumgwtilea.it/forum/index.php?showtopic=24965
Locked shortly after the first post! :lol:
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Offline Flipside

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With terrorism there are no rules...there is no safe place or safe group...you're either with them or against them...no neutrality.

However, people need to also accept that it does not necessarily mean the equally opposite of the USA and its allies, it is possible for someone to be against Terrorism, but still not support the US approach towards dealing with it. Terrorism may be a 'for or against' issue, but support of the Coalition's response is a far more complex one, I think.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2007, 12:26:54 pm by Flipside »

 

Offline DiabloRojo

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Um, as I recall it was US who invaded THEM, a sovereign state. Truth hurts sometimes.
Who knows to which 'them' you are referring, but let's analyze the two most obvious answers so maybe you'll learn something that didn't come from the mouth of a propagandist.

The Taliban condoned and funded Al Qaeda operations from their position as the 'government' leaders in Afghanistan.  They were a direct link to the 9/11 attacks, which were then considered an act of war, and as such, the US responded in kind by forcibly removing them from power.  They attacked the US (a sovereign state) FIRST.  Now, why did they hate the US in the first place?  Had the US, the United Kingdom, West Germany and the rest of the middle-eastern states, not armed and trained the Mujahideen within Afghanistan in the first place, they would have become part of the USSR in the early 1980's.  Since the failed invasion, the US and it's partners did indeed 'leave them out to dry.'  Deplorable?  Certainly.  A good enough reason to preach hate for a generation, culminating in an ever-more deplorable attack?  I don't know, how badly would someone need to hurt you in order for you to hate and kill them for it?  You tell me, IS IT JUSTIFIED!?  Are the deaths of Soldiers trying to do their jobs and the 'right thing' JUSTIFIED because of what the US and a few other NATO members did (or didn't) do for the people fighting the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan that happened before these Soldiers were even BORN!?  The only human answer, of course, is 'no.'

In Iraq, which I am sure is what you are trying to reference, it was Saddam and his regime that continually refused UN inspectors' access to facilities believed to be producing weapons of mass destruction.  Given Saddam's track record of producing chemical weapons to purge his own perceived dissenters, the refusals of access did not require a great deal of faith to expect that they were being developed and hidden from the inspectors.  Due to the UN's complete inaction, the US 'picked up the ball' as it were, and threatened invasion.  Saddam called the 'bluff' by continuing to refuse and quite plainly lost his head.  Only since Saddam's iron fist was removed, have we seen the extremists blowing things up, which have filtered in from neighboring countries and been recruited by the already-present charismatic religious extremists that are now free to speak their (however unfortunate for the US) beliefs.  The US, UK, Australia, and Poland were willing to do the UN's dirty work for the intended benefit of everyone everyone else.  Now look at the global perceptions of the US and to a lesser degree, the UK and Australia.  That'll teach them for trying to do the right thing, by George!

You also seem to believe that the forces left in Iraq are attempting to subjugate the entire populace while it fights back in whatever manner it can.  Considering the anti-war propaganda some morons (especially those in the US) are spewing from their collective rectums, that probably shouldn't be entirely surprising.  It could not be, however, any further from the truth.  These new mujahideen and jihadists only care about having their cause, because of typical human greed for wealth, power, and the opportunity to hurt the US on the whole as much as possible because of their past betrayal.  While the insurgents themselves may have had their ignorance preyed upon by anti-US and religious extremists, the puppet masters aren't bloody stupid.  If they truly only wanted the US soldiers to leave, they would stop the attacks.  They quite obviously like the troops being there, otherwise they would have no easy access to an enemy to rally against other than other Muslims or their own government, not that the distinction truly matters to some of them.

 

Offline Turambar

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do you watch FoxNews DiabloRojo?

btw, Saddaam didn't produce the weapons of mass destruction,  he bought them.  from the US.

see, the US didn't like Iran's (democratically elected) government, so they assassinated the leader and planted in a new guy.  the result of this is that Iran (the government at least) does not like the US very much. 


as for why the rest of that area despises the US?

ISRAEL.


(also relevant, the US cut funding for Palestine's democratically elected government, and is backing the other faction.  way to export Freedom to the world right?)
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Offline NGTM-1R

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as for killing civilians, yeah, not really possible to justify that.  we need to go back to fighting wars with swords.  it's kinda hard to knock out a school with collateral damage when you charge in, find the bad guys, and run them through.

Like as not, that's not true. Haditha was nothing compared to the kind of violence commited against civilians then. Combat, man to man, face to face, where you see the other guy sweat and his blood gets on you when he dies, produces a different kind of mindset. On a scale of psychological impact of physical violence, shooting someone ranks a lot lower than running them through. Draw your own conclusions.

I've heard it often observed that the First Gulf War was the first war in the history of mankind where it could be proven military casualities outnumbered civilian. We developed the ability to kill on a scale unheard of previously during the Second World War. The Blitz; RAF Bomber Command's part of the Combined Bombing Offensive; and 8th Air Force flew a number "area" missions too. It was justified on unique grounds then, much as the first and so far only use of atomic arms was. However in the end, at that last extremity, the nations of the industrialized world looked at what they had done in horror. Never since have they come remotely close to duplicating the actions they took then.

In a way, we are not brutal enough. We tend to look in askance at the Israelis for bulldozing houses and the like, but they have the greatest experience with insurgency in the world; perhaps we should learn from them.
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Offline TrashMan

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In a way, we are not brutal enough. We tend to look in askance at the Israelis for bulldozing houses and the like, but they have the greatest experience with insurgency in the world; perhaps we should learn from them.

Honestly, I'd find a better teacher to learn from :P
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Offline karajorma

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The Taliban condoned and funded Al Qaeda operations from their position as the 'government' leaders in Afghanistan.

You've got to be kidding me. It was the other way round. Al-Qaeda was funding the Taliban government. Which makes the rest of that statement dubious at best.
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Offline karajorma

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do you watch FoxNews DiabloRojo?

Let's not get into ad hominem attacks here. Prove the argument wrong.
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Offline Wanderer

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Don't know how much you should praise Israel politics. Several older people that i know participated to the UN mission (UNTSO) mainly to the Golan Heights in 1982 - 1984 and practically every one stated rather sarcastic and ironic manner that Jews had learned the 'crowd control methods from best'. I let you to decide what they meant with that.
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Offline Mars

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Learned from the best? Seems harsh but they have a point.

Anyhow, even if the US dropped Isreal I'm pretty sure they would hang on for quite a while... in a horrible kind of way they impress me.

 

Offline Scuddie

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If the US dropped Israel, it would prove to the world that the US are one of the good guys.
Bunny stole my signature :(.

Sorry boobies.

 
From a purely realpolitik standpoint, the US has no reason to drop Israel. It's one of the few democracies in the Middle East and "our" best ally in the region.

 

Offline Turambar

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if we drop them, there's a good chance we'll gain 6 or 7 allies in the region.

they are also the ones who have oil.
10:55:48   TurambarBlade: i've been selecting my generals based on how much i like their hats
10:55:55   HerraTohtori: me too!
10:56:01   HerraTohtori: :D

 

Offline Scuddie

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And look at the reputation it has, and rightfully so.  We need to separate ourselves from Israel more than Brittany Spears needs to separate herself from Paris Hilton.

Don't ask me why I used that comparison :p.
Bunny stole my signature :(.

Sorry boobies.

 
if we drop them, there's a good chance we'll gain 6 or 7 allies in the region.

Like who? Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Iran sell us oil whether they officially want to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth or not. Israel gives us military and intelligence support- more than any other 3rd world Middle Eastern nation could- and the common Arab is still going to hate us anyway whether we drop Israel or not.

Quote
And look at the reputation it has, and rightfully so.

Not saying that I endorse Israel. Just saying that, from a nationalist point of view, you get no brownie points for being the good guy in international politics.

 

Offline DiabloRojo

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Damnit, I can't keep up with all this at work... (so I shouldn't!)

Turambar:
I watch any and all news channels.  Fox is just as chock-full of BS as the rest of them.  The art of it is gleaning the facts from the tripe.  My mindset and perspective are my own, from the facts I have.  On that note, assuming someone watches Fox News, coming from the 'popular' belief that the channel is conservative, because the person's perspective appears to originate from the conservative end of the spectrum is quite cliché.

Yes the US did sell chemical weapons to Iraq during the Iran crisis.  The NATO countries' military backing in Iraq was intended to win that military conflict 'by any means necessary.'  Thin line?  I'm not sure if a line really exists there.  STILL, it doesn't excuse the fact that Saddam was willing to use such weapons on [his own] civilians, but I highly doubt the allies supplying Iraq with war materials at the time had any idea he would eventually commit such an atrocity.  In hindsight, do you think it would have helped that their contract had a clause that the weapons may not be used on civilians?  It was a [bad] means to and end that backfired, spectacularly.  After all the US had installed nuclear weapons in Turkey and similarly the USSR in Cuba.  Aside from Kennedy's posturing, not much came of those situations.  Why not chemical weapons, eh?

To the rest, I have no argument because you're simply correct.  I was more focused on Afghanistan in the previous post since dealing with them was the start of this mess.  I never implied (or meant to) that many people in the middle east have no reason to dislike the US for the tactics used in the 70's and 80's.

You've got to be kidding me. It was the other way round. Al-Qaeda was funding the Taliban government. Which makes the rest of that statement dubious at best.
Crap no, you're right.  I haven't been proofreading.  The point I was trying to make is that Al Qaeda was primarily based in Afghanistan, tied to the ruling party, and therefore the the most logical target for military retaliation against a body that proved willing an able to attack the US.

 

Offline Ghostavo

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Yes the US did sell chemical weapons to Iraq during the Iran crisis.  The NATO countries' military backing in Iraq was intended to win that military conflict 'by any means necessary.'  Thin line?  I'm not sure if a line really exists there.  STILL, it doesn't excuse the fact that Saddam was willing to use such weapons on [his own] civilians, but I highly doubt the allies supplying Iraq with war materials at the time had any idea he would eventually commit such an atrocity. 

What other use is there for chemical weapons?
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