Author Topic: Two Suns? Twin Stars Could Be Visible From Earth By 2012  (Read 8170 times)

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Offline karajorma

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Re: Two Suns? Twin Stars Could Be Visible From Earth By 2012
No, they're just more dangerous because the progenitor stars for type 1a supernova (white dwarfs) aren't as noticeable as their type II counterparts (supergiants).  So it's possible that there's a white dwarf nearby that's about to go supernova which we haven't discovered yet.

I don't think that's the problem. Notice the difference in distances mentioned? If a Type II supernova would have to be closer than eight parsecs (26 light-years) to destroy half the Earth's ozone layer but a Type Ia supernova would have to be closer than a thousand parsecs (3300 light-years) to affect the Earth, it suggests that the Type Ia is worse.
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Offline carn1x

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Re: Two Suns? Twin Stars Could Be Visible From Earth By 2012
Aren't there 2 not only close enough by to wipe out the entire solar system but aimed right at us?  It's just a matter of when they did go off or will go off.  Gamma ray burst could arrive now or not for billions of years.   

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Offline watsisname

Re: Two Suns? Twin Stars Could Be Visible From Earth By 2012
No, they're just more dangerous because the progenitor stars for type 1a supernova (white dwarfs) aren't as noticeable as their type II counterparts (supergiants).  So it's possible that there's a white dwarf nearby that's about to go supernova which we haven't discovered yet.

I don't think that's the problem. Notice the difference in distances mentioned? If a Type II supernova would have to be closer than eight parsecs (26 light-years) to destroy half the Earth's ozone layer but a Type Ia supernova would have to be closer than a thousand parsecs (3300 light-years) to affect the Earth, it suggests that the Type Ia is worse.

waaaaaat.  I was thinking it was just because white dwarfs are more common and less visible, so that makes them a more likely and less visible threat.  If they really are more lethal at a given distance then that's interesting, and unexpected.  The source provided by wikipedia goes into some detail as to how those distance figures are determined.

On a quick skim through his conclusions seem correct, just rather counter-intuitive.  Type II supernovae are certainly far more energetic than type Ia, but most of that energy is in the form of neutrinos (which aren't too harmful since they basically pass right through anything without much interaction), whereas type Ia radiates more x-rays and gamma rays.  So even though they give off less energy, it's more energy of a form that is harmful to atmospheres and organisms.

Even so, I find the 1kpc figure for Ia supernova's destructive range extremely surprising.  That is a huge volume of space. :shaking:
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 03:34:42 am by watsisname »
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Offline headdie

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Re: Two Suns? Twin Stars Could Be Visible From Earth By 2012
No, they're just more dangerous because the progenitor stars for type 1a supernova (white dwarfs) aren't as noticeable as their type II counterparts (supergiants).  So it's possible that there's a white dwarf nearby that's about to go supernova which we haven't discovered yet.

I don't think that's the problem. Notice the difference in distances mentioned? If a Type II supernova would have to be closer than eight parsecs (26 light-years) to destroy half the Earth's ozone layer but a Type Ia supernova would have to be closer than a thousand parsecs (3300 light-years) to affect the Earth, it suggests that the Type Ia is worse.

waaaaaat.  I was thinking it was just because white dwarfs are more common and less visible, so that makes them a more likely and less visible threat.  If they really are more lethal at a given distance then that's interesting, and unexpected.  The source provided by wikipedia goes into some detail as to how those distance figures are determined.

On a quick skim through his conclusions seem correct, just rather counter-intuitive.  Type II supernovae are certainly far more energetic than type Ia, but most of that energy is in the form of neutrinos (which aren't too harmful since they basically pass right through anything without much interaction), whereas type Ia radiates more x-rays and gamma rays.  So even though they give off less energy, it's more energy of a form that is harmful to atmospheres and organisms.

Even so, I find the 1kpc figure for Ia supernova's destructive range extremely surprising.  That is a huge volume of space. :shaking:

I suppose part of the problem is that in space there is very little to absorb and disperse the radiation so it is dangerous to a wider radius
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Two Suns? Twin Stars Could Be Visible From Earth By 2012
I remember looking at that source a long time ago for some reason I can't remember and I was surprised that the Ia was more violent back then too.
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Two Suns? Twin Stars Could Be Visible From Earth By 2012
It does seem odd, you would have thought that after that kind of distance, any effect would be so dispersed as to be almost negligable....

 
Re: Two Suns? Twin Stars Could Be Visible From Earth By 2012
IIRC it's because the gamma bursts are focused at the poles not the entire radius of the star. Like two gamma ray shotgun blasts.
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Re: Two Suns? Twin Stars Could Be Visible From Earth By 2012
On a quick skim through his conclusions seem correct, just rather counter-intuitive.  Type II supernovae are certainly far more energetic than type Ia, but most of that energy is in the form of neutrinos (which aren't too harmful since they basically pass right through anything without much interaction), whereas type Ia radiates more x-rays and gamma rays.

Oh, that explains it...

 
Re: Two Suns? Twin Stars Could Be Visible From Earth By 2012
Reading watsisname's source, the X-rays from a type Ia supernova aren't dangerous until it gets relatively close to us; it's the gamma rays that are more of a cause for concern.  Even so, I don't feel it's a huge cause.  50-100 pc might give us more reason to worry.

In any case, regarding Betelgeuse, it will explode sometime within the next 100,000 to million years.  That's all we can say, because once a star begins fusing helium, and those changes have made their way to the surface, any further changes in the core will generally not be seen by outside observers because it takes too long for radiative transfer to bring us this information (i.e., the changes make themselves felt outside the core, but because they are dependent on photons to relay this news, and photons take a really long time to make it out of a star, we may not see it before the star explodes).  For a 20 solar mass star like Betelgeuse, once carbon and oxygen burning commence in the core, it takes roughly 3-500 years for that supply to be exhausted and for the star to then begin fusing the products of that reaction (silicon, mostly) into heavier elements via alpha capture.  That process lasts about 6 months, until a core of iron builds up to the Chandrasekhar mass.  Once that happens, the core collapses in less than a second to become a neutron star, and the star explodes.

By contrast, the helium burning stage takes about a million years, and hydrogen burning about 10 million, again for a star with a mass like Betelgeuse's. 

 

Offline ssmit132

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Re: Two Suns? Twin Stars Could Be Visible From Earth By 2012
IIRC it's because the gamma bursts are focused at the poles not the entire radius of the star. Like two gamma ray shotgun blasts.
So would that mean that if one of the star's poles wasn't facing you, you would not get hit by the gamma rays?

 

Offline FUBAR-BDHR

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Re: Two Suns? Twin Stars Could Be Visible From Earth By 2012
Pretty much.  Or not enough to matter.  It's those 2 that have an axis pointing right at us that are the ones to watch.
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