Author Topic: !!SPOILERS!! Star Wars: The Force Awakens  (Read 65079 times)

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Offline Klaustrophobia

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Re: !!SPOILERS!! Star Wars: The Force Awakens
This article sums up my thoughts on what was wrong with The Force Awakens pretty well.  Albeit more nitpicky and nerd-ragey than I would have been.  One giant thing that's missing from the list is the shoe-horning in of famous lines from the old movies in what I assume was an attempt at 'tribute' but really just ended up cheesy.  That sorta goes along with the carbon copy plot elements I suppose.  For an example of how to nod to previous movies in a series correctly, refer to Skyfall. 

I pretty much lost it when they brought back the "parsecs" nonsense.  I did a movie bad and talked out loud after that line, saying "It's just as stupid the second time."  Everyone nearby who heard me laughed.  Hard.  We missed the next line or two.
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Re: !!SPOILERS!! Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Weren't X and Y wings the only ones in the original theatrical trilogy?  I certainly didn't know of any others until I played Rogue Squadron (which now I have a hankering for).

A-Wings and B-Wings don't show up until Return of the Jedi.

In RotJ A-Wings can be seen in the hangar and are present throughout the battle showing up many times. One as they say crashes into the Executor's bridge, another one goes down the Death star Shaft with the Falcon but splits off to draw off some of their pursuit force, another is near the medical frigate or near the falcon when it attacks the SDs.  But generally they're all over the place. Their most prominent place is with the Executor of course where aside from the collision, two A-Wings also implied to have destroyed the shield generator.

B-Wings are present at the start of the battle but once they avoid the shield they're not seen again. They're seen most prominently during in the staging area, immediately following the Falcon X-Wings in a closed-wing formation. They later open up prior to jump. They're distinctive because their engine glow is a different colour (orange I think rather than yellow)

Also I'm pretty sure Green Leader is in an A-wing and is the one in the death star whereas the B-Wing is Grey Leader. 


This is special edition footage but I think most of the elements were present in the old version as well.

But yeah. Seeing as how much X-Wings, Y-Wings and A-wings are seen in the battle I'm baffled why we don't even see one combat shot with the B-Wing. Maybe someone dropped their two models or misplaced them in a box or something. Who knows
« Last Edit: January 02, 2016, 12:29:05 pm by Akalabeth Angel »

 

Offline Flaser

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Re: !!SPOILERS!! Star Wars: The Force Awakens
IIRC they had trouble filming the B-wings on blue-screen because their thin profile.

EDIT:

Some further info from a die-hard fan - http://originaltrilogy.com/topic/B-Wings-in-ROTJ-editing-epiphany/id/12866
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Offline Dragon

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Re: !!SPOILERS!! Star Wars: The Force Awakens
I liked it. A bit too much emphasis on "destiny" and contrivances due to The Force, but overall, I think it worked. First Order managed to be a lot "eviler" than Empire seemed to be, while at the same time being more human. Stormtroopers were handled really well. Kylo Ren was quite well done, IMO. A Vader wannabe, but clearly a rather lousy darksider, with a tendency to explode into raging fits instead of using that anger for something productive. I think that made his defeat by Rei believable. She didn't have lightsaber training (though she was handy with the quaterstaff), but he probably didn't have all that much, either. Not to mention he seemed to be only able to control his powers when relatively collected (as that's when he used them), which wasn't all that often.

The Starkiller base was a bit silly, though. Not only was the scene when it destroyed those planets ridiculously short, the victims were almost throwaway. We don't even know what these planets were called. Not to mention using a star that way involves some really dodgy physics. It probably would've been better off without that sub-plot, or with some less ridiculous superweapon.

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: !!SPOILERS!! Star Wars: The Force Awakens
This article sums up my thoughts on what was wrong with The Force Awakens pretty well.  Albeit more nitpicky and nerd-ragey than I would have been.  One giant thing that's missing from the list is the shoe-horning in of famous lines from the old movies in what I assume was an attempt at 'tribute' but really just ended up cheesy.  That sorta goes along with the carbon copy plot elements I suppose.  For an example of how to nod to previous movies in a series correctly, refer to Skyfall. 

I pretty much lost it when they brought back the "parsecs" nonsense.  I did a movie bad and talked out loud after that line, saying "It's just as stupid the second time."  Everyone nearby who heard me laughed.  Hard.  We missed the next line or two.
While some of those points mentioned are valid, as the comments point out a big chunk of them are either blatantly explained in the film itself, or cease to become issues if you take a moment to think about them.  Were there plenty of plot contrivances?  Most definitely.  Was the end result still ridiculously fun?  Also most definitely.

And see, I legitimately lol'd at the parsecs scene, because it was pretty damn obvious that the writers were hanging a lampshade on how stupid the original wording was. :D

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: !!SPOILERS!! Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Saw it pretty much blind, having only read a small summary of some of the novels/background materials.  I went with my dad, who saw A New Hope in theatres on release as well.  I have thoughts:

-I really enjoyed it.
-As a bridge from the original trilogy, spanning the gap into a new era of Star Wars, and redeeming the ****show that was the prequel trilogy, it was perfect.
-I didn't find the nods to A New Hope jarring or aggravating; in general I thought the homage paid was well done and was in fact a very good way of saying "yes, this is Star Wars again."
-Harrison Ford could have been along for the ride; instead, he acted; his presence was a pivotal element in making the audience care about what was going on.  Truthfully, HE was the bridge in this film, and the continued use of the same humour by Solo was perfect.
-The film was rollicking and fun; I was never bored, and it's a testament to how entertaining it was that the nitpicks below did not really detract from it.

Some thoughts on things I thought could have been done better:
- The political situation explanation.  As I said, I read some summary material and I was still lost.  This was a bridge movie, so they could've taken five goddamned minutes and explained how the Imperial forces got decimated, then rebuilt, and then the Republic sat on its thumbs while Leia formed a "Resistance" to the "First Order."  Furthermore...
- How the hell does a relatively small First Order who appear to be universally hated build a PLANET SIZED SUPERWEAPON THAT IS VISIBLE FROM SPACE without anyone noticing.  Anyone?  Bueller?  Is the Resistance still busy partying with the Ewoks or what?
-Planet sized superweapons are stupid.  Yes, I know this is Star Wars, but when I heard it was called "Starkiller" I went "YOU COULD HAVE DRAWN ON KOTOR 1/2, WHY THE HELL DIDN'T YOU?!"  Seriously.  So many more interesting directions to go; instead we put a big gun in a planet that eats suns. Say that out loud and tell me it's not stupid.
-Umm, why does the First Order manage so much carnage before the Resistance wakes up, exactly?  It takes the death of a planetary system to break up the Ewok orgy?

Some thoughts on Kylo (Ben), Finn, and Rey:
-I feel like the writers played KOTOR and I am desperately hoping they steal some ideas from it for Ep8/9.
-The criticism that Kylo/Ben has his ass kicked is off-base; Kylo is a ragged, half-trained, Dark Side-seduced Force user who is used to being completely opposed; he's not embracing his emotions, he's embracing raw anger while undergoing massive internal struggle (and he's wounded to begin with).  It's made clear from the start of the film that Finn and Rey are both Force-capable (my Dad disagreed, but I'm adamant that Finn is force-capable); Finn slightly, while Rey has clearly had considerable practice without realizing it.  She's powerful, mad, unconflicted, and focused in their duel; Kylo is afraid of her from early on for this very reason.
-I suspect Rey could end up swayed to Dark side use, while Finn is pretty much immune; I suspect we'll see him used as her anchor.  Kylo, on the other hand, is struggling to retain the Dark side power, unlike Vader.  I'm very curious if we'll see a reversal of heroes and villains.  Killing his father hasn't set Kylo permanently on a Dark path.
-Rey is not a Skywalker.  Nope nope.

I will be seeing it again this week with some friends; I'll watch for anything I missed.
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Offline Dragon

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Re: !!SPOILERS!! Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Somehow, I don't think they built the Starkiller Base without anyone noticing. I don't remember it being said to be a secret installation. They might have done it so that nobody had any way of doing anything about it. Except maybe the New Republic, which might have been lacking political will to do so. The shield was only penetrated by an utterly insane maneuver courtesy of Han Solo, so if that was in place during most of the construction (and it would be if they learned anything from Death Star II), I don't think anyone could touch that thing.

Also, you should note that Finn didn't have to be force-capable. Finn was a Stormtrooper, and thus probably well trained with that electrostaff we see. He might have been taught something about lightsabers as well (though likely centered on how to fight someone with a lightsaber). Though knowing SW, he'll be either a Jedi or dead by the end of the trilogy (possibly both :) ). Anyway, I like the idea of a normal person using a lightsaber competently and holding off against a force user, even a lousy, poorly trained one like Kylo.

 

Offline qwadtep

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Re: !!SPOILERS!! Star Wars: The Force Awakens
I didn't have a problem with Starkiller, but I have an admitted bias towards strapping giant engines on a planet and using it as a mobile superweapons platform. And, in fairness, its stupidity was its downfall; if they had just slapped a few Death Star superlasers on instead it would be nearly impossible for the Resistance/Republic to destroy.

The parsecs scene was fine too since I'm accustomed to all the EU explanations about it being a black hole and the run being defined by how close you can get to the black hole and escape.

I think the most jarring thing in the movie for me is Finn. He has his initial freakout when one of his squadmates dies, but for the rest of the movie doesn't seem to hesitate when gunning down dozens of his former comrades himself.

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: !!SPOILERS!! Star Wars: The Force Awakens
I think the most jarring thing in the movie for me is Finn. He has his initial freakout when one of his squadmates dies, but for the rest of the movie doesn't seem to hesitate when gunning down dozens of his former comrades himself.

If by "dozens" you mean six.  Go back and count 'em.  Two TIE pilots in the Falcon (one of whom may have survived the crash), one with a lightsaber, two with a blaster in the rubble, and one with a blaster after Han gets stabbed.  That is the sum total of his confirmed bodycount in the entire movie. He never actually hits anyone while firing the TIE's with the possible exception of the officers in the control tower.  He doesn't actually use a weapon at any other point (besides the fight with Ren, in which he kills no one).

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: !!SPOILERS!! Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Plus when someone is actively trying to kill you, that tends to make it a hell of a lot easier to shoot back at them.

 
Re: !!SPOILERS!! Star Wars: The Force Awakens
I think the most jarring thing in the movie for me is Finn. He has his initial freakout when one of his squadmates dies, but for the rest of the movie doesn't seem to hesitate when gunning down dozens of his former comrades himself.

The important part of that scene isn't him freaking out. What's important is that he gets blood on his helmet and becomes distinguishable from the other stormtroopers.

That is the sum total of his confirmed bodycount in the entire movie. He never actually hits anyone while firing the TIE's with the possible exception of the officers in the control tower.  He doesn't actually use a weapon at any other point (besides the fight with Ren, in which he kills no one).

Probably killed a dozen in the bay alone.

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: !!SPOILERS!! Star Wars: The Force Awakens
He was quite panicked in the bay, however, not to mention he was hardly aiming at those troopers (or anything else, for that matter). He probably did worry about what he did once it had a chance to set in, but between the frantic rush of the battle and nearly dying in the desert, the first time he had the time to reflect on anything was on the Falcon. Besides, all of the fighting he did after his defection was in self defense.

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: !!SPOILERS!! Star Wars: The Force Awakens
That is the sum total of his confirmed bodycount in the entire movie. He never actually hits anyone while firing the TIE's with the possible exception of the officers in the control tower.  He doesn't actually use a weapon at any other point (besides the fight with Ren, in which he kills no one).

Probably killed a dozen in the bay alone.

I would be most interested if you go watch it again and point out to me which ones and when, because he never actually hit any of them and their deaths nearly by definition cannot be confirmed.

 
Re: !!SPOILERS!! Star Wars: The Force Awakens
That is the sum total of his confirmed bodycount in the entire movie. He never actually hits anyone while firing the TIE's with the possible exception of the officers in the control tower.  He doesn't actually use a weapon at any other point (besides the fight with Ren, in which he kills no one).

Probably killed a dozen in the bay alone.

I would be most interested if you go watch it again and point out to me which ones and when, because he never actually hit any of them and their deaths nearly by definition cannot be confirmed.

If a guy goes flying 10 feet into the by an explosion he's implied to be dead. I don't need to go to the movie for that; it's in the trailer.


 

Offline AdmiralRalwood

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Re: !!SPOILERS!! Star Wars: The Force Awakens
I don't need to go to the movie for that; it's in the trailer.
There are multiple scenes from multiple trailers that didn't end up in the actual movie, you know.
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Offline Turambar

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Re: !!SPOILERS!! Star Wars: The Force Awakens
A TIE with a GUNNER SEAT?!  You're kidnapping babies for your elite units and you want to put TWO PEOPLE in one of those deathtraps?!  They should have gone for TIE/d's
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Offline StarSlayer

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Re: !!SPOILERS!! Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Like most of the galaxy's problems this one can be solved with a couple squadrons of Snubbies.

I just saw it, I found it most enjoyable and it hit all the right beats for the most part.  There are a few plot issues I found a little vexing but the acting, dialog and cinematography where all very good.  The prodigious use of practical effects and real sets leads me to think it will age pretty well to boot.  I liked the new main leads and Harrison Ford really managed to get back into Han Solo again, which made it really sad that he won't be along for any of the following films.  I'm not terribly miffed about Rey and Finn beating Kylo, he certainly wasn't the second coming Hans Talhoffer in terms of swordplay, he had just taken a bowcaster shot to the flank and was kinda of an angsty rage machine on top of it all.  Anger is a useful tool in a physical confrontation, but it needs to be harnessed properly, if you let it get out of control you get stupid and screw up.   I like that lightsaber fights have returned to the more impactful emotional experience than the flailing light show as well.  The way the light from the blades cast on the characters was very nice touch, the blue and the red in the snow in the darkness; very cool.  The combat scenes struck the right balance of being busy enough to be visually interesting but focused so you could follow what is going on.  While the NuEmpire might not have solved the snubfighter problem they seem to have gotten their ground forces squared away which was nice, though not providing crash seats and making your stormies stand for the whole ride in the space LCVPs was a bit of a dick move by whoever built them.

A little better setup of the Galactic situation would have been appreciated but I can buy that the Imperial remnants reformed into some Boys from Brazil/DPRK State and the Republic was too milk toast to confront them.  The Resistance seems to be running on a shoestring budget and a wing of snubbies that got misplaced by the Republic Navy.  I see them as more of a state sponsored pain in the ass than a legitimate counter to the First Order.  If the First Order actually was holding on to enough systems for a decent industrial base and was the closed indoctrinated society they appear I'll even buy them building the Superweapon in secret, especially as it seemed they dug the thing into some remote planet. 

I'm guessing even with the pseudo sun magnifying glass blown up they hit enough governmental infrastructure and fleet assets to have given them a conventional forces advantage against whats left.  I get the feel the Snoke fellow is more concerned about winning the "Force" than simply ruling the galaxy like Palpatine.  Though with his penchant for giant holograms I wonder if he's like three feet tall or something :P

Anyway, overall it was a solid jump off point to a new trilogy and I look forward to the subsequent episodes.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: !!SPOILERS!! Star Wars: The Force Awakens
It occurs to me I haven't given my thoughts.

This movie needed to overcome the prequels. That's kind of why it mixes up the elements of ANH so strongly...but it does mix them up. Except for one major misstep, which I'll get to, I think it manages to be a homage and yet not derivative. The whole thing seems to hinge on a fighter attack; but the fighters don't actually have the firepower for it and are really a sideshow for the end in terms of screen time. The only reason you can even call it the "I am your father" scene is it's on a catwalk and inside a structure. Rey has grown up on legends of the Force and Jedi, so she kind of Corran Horns her way through it, knowing that she can do certain things but not knowing how to do them. Speaking of which, I get the feeling that despite not making it blatant, they did nod towards the EU a few times. Rey's mind-tricking a stormtrooper felt, in its way, a nod to The Bacta War as I commented. Luke's hideaway, with the islands, the Falcon's landing spot, the stairs, and just the air of it, had me say "this is Jomark" out loud. (Here's hoping that's not Luuke Skywalker.)

Harrison Ford could have turned up to this movie drunk and phoned it in, and I think most people would have been happy. He didn't. He got up there and acted his heart out. He's not carrying this movie on his shoulders, exactly, Daisy Ridley knocked it out of the park too and I don't think anyone actually did badly (the weakest performance, I think, was Finn, but in purely relative terms; he was still solid), but this movie would have been very different and worse without his performance. They kept the kind of light dialogue the original trilogy did so well, and set the tone with setting.

The lighting in this movie was a thing of beauty and I will stab anyone who disagrees.

The only foot I think it put wrong was when they called back to the cantina scene. You open the door, the characters look in, and then suddenly the camera detaches from them and goes walkabout, then hops between shots. The moment they did that was pretty much the only time I think they crossed the line between "homage" and "derivative". If we'd just had the characters walk past all this sort of stuff, I think we could have sustained it in homage, but...

I also think that a lot of people have interpreted the fight between Ren and Rey wrong. She does win, yes, but when she attacks Ren in anger...she's not winning the fight. We watch her struggle and be constantly driven back. It's only there, on the edge, closing her eyes, clearing her mind, reaching for the Force as a Jedi would do, that she takes control of the fight. She won as Obi-Wan would have approved of, not as Vader would have.
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Offline SypheDMar

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Re: !!SPOILERS!! Star Wars: The Force Awakens
I think the most jarring thing in the movie for me is Finn. He has his initial freakout when one of his squadmates dies, but for the rest of the movie doesn't seem to hesitate when gunning down dozens of his former comrades himself.

If by "dozens" you mean six.  Go back and count 'em.  Two TIE pilots in the Falcon (one of whom may have survived the crash), one with a lightsaber, two with a blaster in the rubble, and one with a blaster after Han gets stabbed.  That is the sum total of his confirmed bodycount in the entire movie. He never actually hits anyone while firing the TIE's with the possible exception of the officers in the control tower.  He doesn't actually use a weapon at any other point (besides the fight with Ren, in which he kills no one).
To be fair, I'd count the officers since they grew up in propagandaville as well. But to be more fair, I didn't literally count.  :p

A TIE with a GUNNER SEAT?!  You're kidnapping babies for your elite units and you want to put TWO PEOPLE in one of those deathtraps?!  They should have gone for TIE/d's
I dunno, Dameron seemed to really like how it flew. Maybe not so much a death trap in new canon. At least the Order version of it, anyway.

 

Offline qwadtep

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Re: !!SPOILERS!! Star Wars: The Force Awakens
A TIE with a GUNNER SEAT?!  You're kidnapping babies for your elite units and you want to put TWO PEOPLE in one of those deathtraps?!  They should have gone for TIE/d's
The X-Wings in this movie don't seem to have much better survivability, though. Maybe the TIEs actually have shields now, and we just don't notice because a single penetrating shot means death anyway.