[Mikes]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/05/germany-crisis-cologne-new-years-eve-sex-attacks

As someone living in the country this is rather worrying. Supposedly there were incidents in Hamburg and Stuttgart as well.
This comes after the relief that the terror warning in Munich was only a warning thankfully, and "nothing happened". Then this. Not a "terror attack", yeah, but still, jeez.

There is Carneval in Cologne in a couple of weeks where you can pretty much expect the same thing to happen again. Worse probably, if there are no effective consequences now.

[Col.Hornet]

If this is true... then I have no questions. And only one thing to say. Some EU countries don't want to take "refugees". And this is a brilliant example why we don't want these people. if someone is seeking an asylum from the horrors of war then I think he won't be interested in attacking and raping European women like a savage. For such kind of "cultural enrichment" I say GTFO. Quickly.

[The E]

Except .... the perpetrators, as far as can be determined at this time, are part of a group that has been under police surveillance for some time now. Immigrant background? Yes. Refugees? Nope.

So. Do NOT blame this on refugees or claim that this is a signal that accepting refugees is a bad thing just yet. Doing so would be kinda stupid.

Also, and this is kinda important: There is no indication right now that this was something coordinated. At this time, it looks to me like it was a situation that can easily arise if you add a couple stupid monkeys, lots of alcohol, and opportunity. The same could have happened with a group of purebred germans.

[Col.Hornet]

If they were under police observation, the worse for them. I hope that they will be punished. If you let this go it will only encourage others to do such things in the future. Maybe deportation or permanent refusal to be granted a citizenship would be an example for the others.

[zookeeper]

At this time, it looks to me like it was a situation that can easily arise if you add a couple stupid monkeys, lots of alcohol, and opportunity. The same could have happened with a group of purebred germans.

Well, to me it doesn't sound easy at all. Not that I know what most germans are like, but I have a hard time imagining that if you get hundreds of random german drunk young males together, you're at all likely to see that kind of systemic harassment as a group. Surely that's the kind of thing that you usually can't get away with in a big crowd because of the huge social stigma among men against physically attacking women.

Of course it's not causally a matter of ethnicity, because sure you could have groups of purebred germans do similar things, let's say soccer hooligans or neo-nazis or whatever, but what this particular case does seem to require is a somewhat homogenous group of people who are screwed up in the head in the same way. While there obviously are for example purebred germans who grope and assault, they're a more heterogenous and disconnected group which doesn't congregate, and the problem here seems to me is that you have people who grope and assault but also congregate as a group.

Can you find another group where 1) enough of their members hold such attitudes that this sort of sexual violence as a group can arise (whether spontaneously or coordinately) and 2) they have something else in common which makes it realistic for them to get together in the first place? I don't know, maybe.

[Akalabeth Angel]

If they were under police observation, the worse for them. I hope that they will be punished. If you let this go it will only encourage others to do such things in the future. Maybe deportation or permanent refusal to be granted a citizenship would be an example for the others.

Laws exist for a reason.  When these people are caught, they'll be punished under the extent of German law. 
Treating people differently and outside the established legal framework is counter to very idea of what a constitutional democracy is.

[The E]

At this time, it looks to me like it was a situation that can easily arise if you add a couple stupid monkeys, lots of alcohol, and opportunity. The same could have happened with a group of purebred germans.

Well, to me it doesn't sound easy at all. Not that I know what most germans are like, but I have a hard time imagining that if you get hundreds of random german drunk young males together, you're at all likely to see that kind of systemic harassment as a group. Surely that's the kind of thing that you usually can't get away with in a big crowd because of the huge social stigma among men against physically attacking women.

Of course it's not causally a matter of ethnicity, because sure you could have groups of purebred germans do similar things, let's say soccer hooligans or neo-nazis or whatever, but what this particular case does seem to require is a somewhat homogenous group of people who are screwed up in the head in the same way. While there obviously are for example purebred germans who grope and assault, they're a more heterogenous and disconnected group which doesn't congregate, and the problem here seems to me is that you have people who grope and assault but also congregate as a group.

Can you find another group where 1) enough of their members hold such attitudes that this sort of sexual violence as a group can arise (whether spontaneously or coordinately) and 2) they have something else in common which makes it realistic for them to get together in the first place? I don't know, maybe.

No, it's not something you'd usually get. But it's also not something that can be easily tied to ethnicity or background.

The thing that gets me about this is that whatever happened there is now being used by racists, bigots and other assholes to say that immigration is bad, refugees are evil, multiculturalism has failed yadda yadda yadda. Because of course that's the only reason crimes like this could ever happen, obviously. Because of course everyone would be better off if they just stayed in their own goddamn countries.

And all before we actually know anything substantial about this. We don't know if the 90 reported assaults actually happened. We don't know how many perpetrators were responsible. We don't know the ethnicity or motivation of the perpetrators. We know nothing, and yet, it's ****ing obvious that people need to be deported!

Can you people not see that knee-jerk reactions like this are one of the major reasons why the last 15 ****ing years have gone from bad to worse?

If they were under police observation, the worse for them. I hope that they will be punished. If you let this go it will only encourage others to do such things in the future. Maybe deportation or permanent refusal to be granted a citizenship would be an example for the others.

Laws exist for a reason.  When these people are caught, they'll be punished under the extent of German law. 
Treating people differently and outside the established legal framework is counter to very idea of what a constitutional democracy is.

Exactly. Policework has to be reactive. If it gets proactive, bad things happen.

[Mikes]

And all before we actually know anything substantial about this. We don't know if the 90 reported assaults actually happened. We don't know how many perpetrators were responsible. We don't know the ethnicity or motivation of the perpetrators. We know

Oh it happened ... the surprising thing is that it took so long to hit the news, but by now even the Chancellor recognized and addressed it.

I've also seen reports of a policewomen being groped inside her pants and other police attempting to rescue some of the girls. (Some as in: They rescued one, but the two friends of the girl couldn't be retrieved from the crowd)

Also worth noting is that the first reports speak of 30 reported assaults, then 60 and now the later come up at 90, but it also is mentioned again and again that the actual number of assaults (i.e. reported + unreported) is likely even higher as usual with such attacks (due to shame etc.)


Watching this clusterf*** still unfold as more news keep hitting the net. (Again, amazing that it took that long)

Interestingly even one of our former "family ministers" (Kristina Schröder) is exploring territory that may be deemed not quite 100% politically correct by tweeting: "„Sie wurden lange tabuisiert, aber wir müssen uns mit gewaltlegitimierenden Männlichkeitsnormen in muslimischer Kultur auseinandersetzen." (Found here: http://www.faz.net/aktuell/feuilleton/debatten/nach-silvester-in-koeln-muss-es-um-die-taeter-gehen-13999062-p2.html)

Rough translation: "It was long taboo, but we have to discuss violence legitimating masculine norms within muslim culture."

According to the same article similar scenes are known to have happened before on Tahrir place as well.
Also worth noting, such scenes never happened in the German Federal Republic before, ever since it was founded.

Make of that what you will.

[The E]

Something obviously happened. That much is clear. But we don't have any good idea what actually happened.

[Bobboau]

Oh it happened ... the surprising thing is that it took so long to hit the news, but by now even the Chancellor recognized and addressed it.^{[citation needed]}

I've also seen reports of a policewomen being groped inside her pants^{[citation needed]} and other police attempting to rescue some of the girls. (Some as in: They rescued one, but the two friends of the girl couldn't be retrieved from the crowd)^{[citation needed]}

Also worth noting is that the first reports speak of 30 reported assaults, then 60 and now the later come up at 90, but it also is mentioned again and again that the actual number of assaults (i.e. reported + unreported) is likely even higher as usual with such attacks (due to shame etc.)


Watching this cluster**** still unfold as more news keep hitting the net. (Again, amazing that it took that long)

I'm trying to help you.

[Mikes]

Oh it happened ... the surprising thing is that it took so long to hit the news, but by now even the Chancellor recognized and addressed it.^{[citation needed]}

I've also seen reports of a policewomen being groped inside her pants^{[citation needed]} and other police attempting to rescue some of the girls. (Some as in: They rescued one, but the two friends of the girl couldn't be retrieved from the crowd)^{[citation needed]}

Also worth noting is that the first reports speak of 30 reported assaults, then 60 and now the later come up at 90, but it also is mentioned again and again that the actual number of assaults (i.e. reported + unreported) is likely even higher as usual with such attacks (due to shame etc.)


Watching this cluster**** still unfold as more news keep hitting the net. (Again, amazing that it took that long)

I'm trying to help you.

English reporting is lagging behind obviously, but i ll give you the german sources. Also: If you google: "Silvester Köln sexuelle Übergriffe" the net is truly full of it and by now pretty much All the major newspapers have articles on it.

First: Chancellor Merkels statement: http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/koeln-angela-merkel-verlangt-harte-antwort-des-rechtsstaats-a-1070609.html "Merkel verlangt harte Antwort des Rechtsstaats"

Second: policewoman being groped (although admittedly she was not in uniform): http://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article150593304/Ploetzlich-spuerte-ich-eine-Hand-an-meinem-Po.html "Nach aktuellen Angaben der Polizei wurde sogar einer Zivilpolizistin in die Hose gefasst. "Es ist ein unerträglicher Zustand, dass mitten in der Stadt solche Straftaten begangen werden", sagte Kölns Polizeipräsident Wolfgang Albers am Montag. Die Polizei will jetzt ihre Präsenz verstärken.""

Third: Police reporting they were able to save one girl, but not her friends: http://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article150619851/Man-hatte-ihr-den-Slip-vom-Koerper-gerissen.html "Sie sei am Unterkörper auch unsittlich berührt worden. "Ihre drei Freundinnen konnten wir nicht aus dem Pulk retten, denn wir selbst wurden mit Böllern beworfen."

Eyewitness report included in the video.

Similar articles can easily be found by several other major newspapers by now. Spiegel and Welt are also rather major newspapers over here so i picked those.

Oh and ... go ahead and google "Tahrir place sexual assault" and you will find multiple instances of especially journalists being sexually assaulted in the middle of the day in the middle of a crowd in Bagdad. So stuff like that does indeed happen regularly... but it NEVER happened in the Federal Republic of Germany yet at all up to this point. Just to emphasize. (Example: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/21/sonia-dridi-attacked-tahrir-square: "What was depressing is that the employees inside Hardee's knew exactly what to do because this seems to happen all the time," Khalil said. "Some terrified woman running in one step ahead of a mob." Feel free to google more yourself, there appears to be quite a couple of incidents.)

I'll refrain from jumping to conclusions as more information may still become available. However from what we do know and from my perspective the stance of "this has nothing to do with different cultues" is just as problematic and shortsighted as the stance of "blaming all immigrants due to the actions of a few" is.

[zookeeper]

Something obviously happened. That much is clear. But we don't have any good idea what actually happened.

What in this case warrants suspicion about what's been reported? Like, sure we don't know what the exact demographics of that group were and what the assailants' motivations were, but those kinds of details seem very unimportant compared to "a group of hundreds of guys of mostly immigrant background assaults women" which is kind of the main point which no one seems to have much doubts about, based on how you got everyone from the mayor and police chief to Merkel make statements about it seemingly acknowledging that yeah that actually happened.

Of course anything reported so far can always turn out to be wrong, but assuming the basics are correct, then it's not like anyone's opinion is going to hinge much on the details of whether it turns out there were 50 or 100 assaults or what the perpetrators' precise ethnicity composition was?

[The E]

Look, all I'm saying is that this incident, whatever it was, has far too many unknowns in it at the moment, and that using this to once more play the "blame immigration for all ills" song is something I am not prepared to tolerate.

[Mikes]

Look, all I'm saying is that this incident, whatever it was, has far too many unknowns in it at the moment, and that using this to once more play the "blame immigration for all ills" song is something I am not prepared to tolerate.

As said above ... the most frustrating aspect of this discussion to me is that it mostly revolves around the extremes of "its the fault of all the immigrants" and "immigration/culture has nothing to do with it at all".
(And if it doesn't at the start then it surely pretty much always does after a while.)

In my eyes both positions are equally nonsensical when looking at what happened here and both positions are equally nonproductive when attempting to find solutions.

[GhylTarvoke]

This can't have anything to do with the treatment of women in Islam. No sir.

Honestly, I find political correctness every bit as irritating as xenophobia.

[NGTM-1R]

This can't have anything to do with the treatment of women in Islam. No sir.

Yeah, when we had that incident in the early '90s in New York where during a Latin American pride event several dozen women were assaulted it was totally because the Puerto Ricans accused had no respect for women.

Not because they were drunken assholes. That had nothing to do with it at all! Nor mob mentality! Nor a general condition of lawlessness resulting from a collection of drunk assholes! It's totally about a cultural disrespect for women, and only that.

The truth is, a cultural respect or disrespect for women probably doesn't even rate as a contributory cause to this. A massive celebration, a lot of people doing minor acts of lawlessness with fireworks and vandalism and ****ing about, some alcohol (it's not as though these people proved to be sincere followers of the Prophet by their actions), a mob mentality reinforced by an apparent shared identity. Away we go.

[666maslo666]

Exactly. Policework has to be reactive. If it gets proactive, bad things happen.

Police work has to be reactive, but immigration policy has to be proactive. And if there is more than 1% of so-called refugees among the attackers (meaning a statistical overrepresentation compared to German population), then making the immigration policy more strict may be warranted. Or, if people with immigrant background are similarly overrepresented among the attackers, the same thing applies. If immigrants are overrepresented in crime statistics, then there is a connection and there is something deeply wrong with immigration policy.

[666maslo666]

The truth is, a cultural respect or disrespect for women probably doesn't even rate as a contributory cause to this. A massive celebration, a lot of people doing minor acts of lawlessness with fireworks and vandalism and ****ing about, some alcohol (it's not as though these people proved to be sincere followers of the Prophet by their actions), a mob mentality reinforced by an apparent shared identity. Away we go.

I dont think so, minor acts of lawlessness happen during such celebrations but it takes a culture of misogyny for mass sexual assaults to happen. It is a major factor. It is probably not a coincidence that Germany admitted million people from exactly such cultures recently..

[The E]

Exactly. Policework has to be reactive. If it gets proactive, bad things happen.

Police work has to be reactive, but immigration policy has to be proactive. And if there is more than 1% of so-called refugees among the attackers (meaning a statistical overrepresentation compared to German population), then making the immigration policy more strict may be warranted. Or, if people with immigrant background are similarly overrepresented among the attackers, the same thing applies. If immigrants are overrepresented in crime statistics, then there is a connection and there is something deeply wrong with immigration policy.

Are you still advocating the punishment of hundreds of thousands because a few dozen misbehave?

[666maslo666]

Are you still advocating the punishment of hundreds of thousands because a few dozen misbehave?

Its not a punishment, as there is absolutely no right to immigrate in the first place. It is just an adjustment in policy. Being allowed to immigrate is a privilege, not a right.

And no, it is not because a few dozen misbehave. It is because there is a statistical pattern of such misbehavior.