[Ghostavo]

Your definition is either incomplete, or almost no one in the feminist movement uses it. The definitions used almost always involve "male aggression" and when used follow it up with the implication that this is latent in all men (e.g. teach men not to rape).

The rest of the post is my reasons for disagreeing with rape culture existing as it is presented, at least in western societies, and what negative effects it's portrayal by the feminist movement has in public policy.

But hey, I guess you can't criticize anything involving feminism nowadays without the implication of being an MRA or a misogynist or something. Totally not the sign of a cult.

[666maslo666]

And many feminists would argue that women have inferior status in quite a lot of cultures including our own. The problem is not the culture of a region ranging from Morocco to Pakistan, the problem is rape culture, and it's universal. This whole discussion focusing on immigrants is bull****. This is a feminism issue, anything else is an intentional distraction born from cowardice.

Focusing on immigrants would be bull**** only if prevalence and seriousness of rape culture was the same among immigrants vs. natives. If its significantly higher, then focusing on immigrants is the rational thing to do.

Just like its rational to focus more attention on male rapists instead of female rapists, since males have far higher likelyhood to be rapists than females. I definitely dont think it justifies things like erosion of due process in universities or elsewhere, people should have certain rights (especially when we are talking about citizens in their own country). But "teach men not to rape" campaigns can be justified. To pretend that strong gender asymmetry in raping does not exist is ignoring reality. And the same applies to immigrant asymmetry in raping, or any other strong correlation of certain groups with unwanted phenomena.

[Grizzly]

Your definition is either incomplete, or almost no one in the feminist movement uses it. The definitions used almost always involve "male aggression" and when used follow it up with the implication that this is latent in all men (e.g. teach men not to rape).

Again: The latter is not present in the link you used for the definition of rape culture and is entirely conjecture on your part.
And yes, part of what you are arguing is also argued by Men's rights movements, also like the stuff you linked in your P.S. It's the literal shorthand for the stuff you are arguing for, that does not make you an misogynist - this again is entirely conjecture on your part. Grow a thicker skin!

[Mika]

Everybody who is saying to wait for police investigation should also consider that the European media has actually been downplaying the immigration related issues for quite some time. What makes you think you'll ever hear anything but the politically filtered truth from the investigation? Now, I'm not suggesting any kind of actions here, but this is more questioning the belief that you'll actually hear any kind of truth later.

Europe as a whole has not historically nor currently been good at integrating immigrant cultures

Compared to what actually? From my perspective, the Eastern European countries (Baltics, Poland, Hungary, Romania) have done quite well. Baltics recently, Hungary and Romania historically. Not to discount Spain and Italy either. Cannot comment about Greeks since I've not been there for some years to talk about this. Finland never had problems to integrate refugees coming from Eastern cultures.

This may be a mistake to say out loud, but it is Canada and USA that are cherry-picking the immigrants. Europe simply doesn't get that luxury. Germany did a bit better in the integration but their immigrants were mostly moderates to begin with - the current flux is not. France and Sweden have already failed. But I do believe that the reason why Sweden failed is different from France. I haven't been in UK for something like 6 years and can't say much about how it looks to me right now.

[Ghostavo]

Your definition is either incomplete, or almost no one in the feminist movement uses it. The definitions used almost always involve "male aggression" and when used follow it up with the implication that this is latent in all men (e.g. teach men not to rape).

Again: The latter is not present in the link you used for the definition of rape culture and is entirely conjecture on your part.

I stand corrected, although I sourced arguments towards male guilt that might disagree with you.

And yes, part of what you are arguing is also argued by Men's rights movements, like the stuff you linked in your P.S. It's the literal shorthand for the stuff you are arguing for, that does not make you an misogynist - this again is entirely conjecture on your part. Grow a thicker skin!

Two parts to this, first, you support paid holidays for workers, animal rights, 8 hour workdays, etc.? Can I imply you are a Nazi then?

Second

To paraphrase Stewart Lee, if there's anything political correctness has done it's that the MRAs hide their inherent sexism beneath more creative language

Can I repeatedly during these discussions call you a Nazi?

EDIT:
The thing I posted in the PS is not related to paternity fraud, it's the fact that male victims of rape are expected by law to pay for child support to their rapist.

[Bobboau]

oh, he is just suffering from internalized misandry.

[Grizzly]

I stand corrected, although I sourced arguments towards male guilt that might disagree with you.

The trouble with that is that you are arguing against the notion that men are all latent rapists, which is exactly what the Women Against Violence Against Women organization is also arguing against: Part of some aspects of these attitudes I talked about earlier is that people use the excuse that "Men just want to **** as many women as possible" (or variants thereoff) as an excuse for their sexual misbehaviour. But, well they have an article on it. Again, this is all from that first link you provided. It's why people find that whole "Arm's length" thing to be rather silly: It puts the onus on women to protect themselves from rapists whilst the onus should be on the sexual assaulters to, ya know, stop doing that.

But you aren't going to solve that problem by simply kicking out all the immigrants. If only that because if we buy that it's immigrants and immigrants exclusively that cause this problem (which they damn well aren't), this would just move the problem elsewhere. Sexual assault is a worldwide phenonom, and these cases in cologne are simply the symptom of a much bigger problem.

Two parts to this, first, you support paid holidays for workers, animal rights, 8 hour workdays, etc.? Can I imply you are a Nazi then?

Actually, I'd be fine with you calling me a socialist, which seems a much more accurate description of the whole thing rather then a Nazi (esp. since the Nazis, for all their talk about paid holidays for workers, used slave labour to fuel their war machine in the latter days of the war). Nazi's are an example of taking an ideology to it's absolute extremes and it's responsible for the deaths of millions of people. The men's rights movement does not have those same connotations. It's a set of ideas, like feminism, socialism or objectivism is.

oh, he is just suffering from internalized misandry.

You are making me suffer with externalized misandry if you keep strawmen like that up 

[Ghostavo]

I stand corrected, although I sourced arguments towards male guilt that might disagree with you.

The trouble with that is that you are arguing against the notion that men are all latent rapists, which is exactly what the Women Against Violence Against Women organization is also arguing against: Part of some aspects of these attitudes I talked about earlier is that people use the excuse that "Men just want to **** as many women as possible" (or variants thereoff) as an excuse for their sexual misbehaviour. But, well they have an article on it. Again, this is all from that first link you provided. It's why people find that whole "Arm's length" thing to be rather silly: It puts the onus on women to protect themselves from rapists whilst the onus should be on the sexual assaulters to, ya know, stop doing that.

I'm not sure how to respond to this so I'll just say this. I realize the feminist movement is a vast movement with often contradictory views and often at each other's throat. If the vocal group I'm refering is just trying to avoid victim blaming is one thing, but often what is presented is all men need to be told not to rape which again, implies that unless told so, they will rape. But this is the thing, this group is influencing public policy, just check the examples I gave. If this was just a fringe vocal group with no power I wouldn't even bat an eye.

But you aren't going to solve that problem by simply kicking out all the immigrants. If only that because if we buy that it's immigrants and immigrants exclusively that cause this problem (which they damn well aren't), this would just move the problem elsewhere. Sexual assault is a worldwide phenonom, and these cases in cologne are simply the symptom of a much bigger problem.

I never even considered kicking out all immigrants, quite the contrary. Apart from a basic security check and the assumption that the country can handle more people that are for the time being are (temporarily I mean and hope) unemployed and homeless. Social cohesion/integration is another issue, which to be fair I haven't fully grasped so I won't even bother attempt to argue.

Two parts to this, first, you support paid holidays for workers, animal rights, 8 hour workdays, etc.? Can I imply you are a Nazi then?

Actually, I'd be fine with you calling me a socialist, which seems a much more accurate description of the whole thing rather then a Nazi (esp. since the Nazis, for all their talk about paid holidays for workers, used slave labour to fuel their war machine in the latter days of the war). Nazi's are an example of taking an ideology to it's absolute extremes and it's responsible for the deaths of millions of people. The men's rights movement does not have those same connotations. It's a set of ideas, like feminism, socialism or objectivism is.

My point was that having a set of goals doesn't mean you are part of a movement that has those same set of goals, so I used a rather extreme example. I share some goals with MRA and some with feminism. That said you in an earlier discussion say that MRA's are inherently sexist, so what am I to take you are implying when you associate me with them?

[est1895]

More information from eyewitnesses in Cologne Germany.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udEYgp1jwAQ

[The E]

Good thing that eyewitness reports are so reliable, isn't it, especially when the witness not only reports what he sees, but mixes it with his interpretation of what happened.

Oh wait. They aren't. They're the least reliable form of evidence available.

Also, the video description is a thing of beauty.

What the eyewitness Ivan Jurcevic is depicting here, is not just an incident the way the modern Pravda Media want us to believe in. This is an ACT OF WAR. The start of the JIHAD WAR in Germany …Jihad has many forms, so also terror attacks. This TERROR ATTACK is aimed toward women. A mass rape and assault to show the indigenous Germans who is the boss!!!. The political correct multicultural and EU addicted Guttersnipes will undersize it to a trivial incidents of New Year Eve. Nothing special. Their behaviour is the same as it was in the beginning of the Chernobyl catastrophe in april 1986. The Soviet media had undersized and falsely informed the public.

Also, look for a bunch of people who are totally not racists in the comments!

[Col.Hornet]

Yet I still prefer to listen to somedy who witnessed the event in person in addition to other sources to expand my field of view. Description and comments say nothing what could have surprised me. They are always the same.

Simple example. March of Independence in Warsaw. There were riots waged by a some idiots (football hooligans beating antifa trash as I remember...) in recent years during the event. All mainstream media's attention and cameras were pointed into one spot where the "action" took place. And that tone.... "huurrrrr durrr bad nationalists and xenophobes demolished this and that.... hurrr durrr... rise of neonazis" and other bull****" And, what was no surprise only few sources mentioned that tens of thousands of people walked peacefully having a great time. Had friends who were there, I watched a stream on YT, read the articles. Various sources to forge my own impression.   
Best solution.

[Phantom Hoover]

@The E: I have seen several news stories now quoting apparently official sources claiming that migrants played a significant role in these attacks. Do you have an issue with this?

[The E]

Nope. That seems pretty clear.

[Grizzly]

I stand corrected, although I sourced arguments towards male guilt that might disagree with you.

The trouble with that is that you are arguing against the notion that men are all latent rapists, which is exactly what the Women Against Violence Against Women organization is also arguing against: Part of some aspects of these attitudes I talked about earlier is that people use the excuse that "Men just want to **** as many women as possible" (or variants thereoff) as an excuse for their sexual misbehaviour. But, well they have an article on it. Again, this is all from that first link you provided. It's why people find that whole "Arm's length" thing to be rather silly: It puts the onus on women to protect themselves from rapists whilst the onus should be on the sexual assaulters to, ya know, stop doing that.

I'm not sure how to respond to this so I'll just say this. I realize the feminist movement is a vast movement with often contradictory views and often at each other's throat. If the vocal group I'm refering is just trying to avoid victim blaming is one thing, but often what is presented is all men need to be told not to rape which again, implies that unless told so, they will rape. But this is the thing, this group is influencing public policy, just check the examples I gave. If this was just a fringe vocal group with no power I wouldn't even bat an eye.

I think you fundemantally misunderstand that tweet: It's sarcasm. It shows how ridiculous those rape tips lots of women get are by changing the subject. The point is not to say "All men need to be told not to rape", but rather that "Telling all women how not to get raped is as stupid as telling all men how not to rape".

My point was that having a set of goals doesn't mean you are part of a movement that has those same set of goals, so I used a rather extreme example. I share some goals with MRA and some with feminism. That said you in an earlier discussion say that MRA's are inherently sexist, so what am I to take you are implying when you associate me with them?

I put a into that line purposefully to tell that I was joking.

[The E]

More information is coming to light.

According to leaked information from Police officers (not official statements), a large number of those stopped and controlled during this incident were people of syrian descent, with a vast majority of them being asylum seekers who have been in Germany less than a year. Furthermore, the official incident report states that during the night, Police registered 71 people, took 11 into custody and made 7 arrests.

Most damning, however, is that these leaks contradict the official version of events in one important aspect: Official press releases and statements have so far claimed that the instances of sexual violence were secondary to instances of petty theft; According to this report, it was the other way around. Apparently, the perpetrators were primarily interested in "sexual amusement", with theft being more or less incidental.


Now, does that mean that I am now jumping on board the maslo train to call for a stop to immigration? Hell no. The people who actively committed these crimes have forfeit their rights to asylum, but that does not mean that everyone of that culture is suddenly incapable of integrating into our society (or incapable of living here until such time as they return to their homes; there are statistics that show that only about 8% of all refugees want to make Germany their new home). We took in a million refugees. Even if we assume that every single one of that group of 1000 in Cologne is a perpetrator, that's just 0.1% of all refugees. I refuse to put all of them under suspicion just because there are idiots among them.

[GhylTarvoke]

Thank goodness this wasn't covered up.

[Grizzly]

Thank goodness this wasn't covered up.

I don't get this. Is there some secret SJW cabal censoring the media across Europe?

[karajorma]

Now, does that mean that I am now jumping on board the maslo train to call for a stop to immigration? Hell no. The people who actively committed these crimes have forfeit their rights to asylum, but that does not mean that everyone of that culture is suddenly incapable of integrating into our society (or incapable of living here until such time as they return to their homes; there are statistics that show that only about 8% of all refugees want to make Germany their new home). We took in a million refugees. Even if we assume that every single one of that group of 1000 in Cologne is a perpetrator, that's just 0.1% of all refugees. I refuse to put all of them under suspicion just because there are idiots among them.

Not to mention that deporting them back to Syria is going to be a seriously strong inducement to anyone else to behave themselves.

[GhylTarvoke]

I don't get this. Is there some secret SJW cabal censoring the media across Europe?

Hardly secret, especially now that it's blown up in their faces.

[The E]

Conspiracy theories sure are fun, aren't they.