Author Topic: And some European countries wonder why they have integration issues...  (Read 27731 times)

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Offline 666maslo666

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Re: And some European countries wonder why they have integration issues...
Not only are they letting essentially everyone in, they're then treating them like **** (in many cases).  Wonder why you have a problem?

It is not true that we treat them like ****. Europe is probably the most immigrant welcoming region right after the US. And contrary to US, they get more welfare here.

Integration is 90% immigrant doing, 10% natives doing. Even if we treated the migrants like little princesses, we would still be changing only that 10%. 90% of differences in integration are simply due to composition of immigrants, primarily affected by geography. That is by far the most important factor.

And since Europe has no Atlantic ocean between us and the MENA region, we must use other means (such as strict immigration policy and border controls) to achieve the same effect.
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Offline Mars

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Re: And some European countries wonder why they have integration issues...
These are meaningless numbers 10% and 90%. If you put all of your refugees in crowded camps with armed guards, would that still be just the natives 10%? If they set their minds to it, could the refugees then integrate, seeing as how they're still in control of 90% of their integration?


 
Re: And some European countries wonder why they have integration issues...
According to dutch research, Iraqese and Afghani immigrants in the Netherlands commit less crimes then their dutch peers in similar socio-economic positions - In dutch crime stats, asylum seekers are under-represented. You may be correct in saying that if people do not want to change, they will not change, but you may vastly underestimate people's willingness to excell.

EU studies have concluded that interethnicity has no effect on social cohesion. The truth is that people will adapt to countries which offer them a roof. We are talking about people who went to great lenghts to travel to Europe, they are not stupid. The Afghani and Iraqi immigrants in the Netherlands were able to adapt because we gave them that oppertunity.

This is why I support MP-Ryan's point: We need an EU thing. Mabye Finland doesn't have the space. Alright, mabye. Then let them come to the Netherlands! We have literally a million square meters of unused buildings due to some sort of banking practice, and we used to have laws that allowed anyone to seize those properties if they lay unused for a year. Re-enact those! We spend 1 billion euros on the care of the refugees, which is exactly 0,17% of the GDP. We can take on a few more!

And we really should, and not because those immigrants are doing a better job at being model citizens then our own dutch natives in similar socio economic positions are. We should work towards an EU border control and immigration policy as we are going to need those systems when Russia starts getting nostalgic about the whole soviet union thing and decides to forcibly re-enact the Warschau pact. We should enact those systems because Denmark is not only enacting symbolic policies in order to make them look like dicks, they're also buying adverts in Libyan newspapers that openly advertise: "Look, we're dicks, don't come to us!", which is perfect propaganda for our ideological enemies which want to sell the story that we're dicks. Heck, we should not be dicks because if there's anything that history is taught us it's that in times of trouble there are less dicks: History has shown that being a dick is a luxury. The purpose of the EU was to build an economic powerhouse that could challenge Russia, China and the US on an economic level: Right now we say we can't even handle a few extra mouths to feed. And we really should be able to feed those extra mouths as people will keep coming! Civil wars will break out, both within the EU and without. There will be a time that one of the people reading this thread will be a refugee, and we should be ready to recieve them when this happens because in the end that is what everyone wants: For when a time of trouble comes that the people they need to rely upon are not dicks. Heck, a lot of countries within the EU recieve economic aid from the richer countries in the EU. We have a system that helps other countries build up their economic strength. There is no reason why the recieving countries should refuse to utilize this system for the betterment of the handling of refugees.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2016, 06:01:55 am by -Joshua- »

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: And some European countries wonder why they have integration issues...
It is not true that we treat them like ****

Exhibit A:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_face_covering
Exhibit B:  https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/12/17/denmark-wants-to-seize-jewelry-from-refugees/
Exhibit C:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_minaret_referendum,_2009

Etc.

And this doesn't address the rise of UKIP (UK), PVV (Netherlands), AfD (Germany), National Front (France), DPP (Denmark), Jobbik (Hungary), etc in the political realms.

Europe has failed to properly exert control over its borders for decades, has taken on vast swaths of often-poorly screened immigrants, has experienced a relatively small social impact from a tiny minority of those immigrants, has in many places enacted laws and policies that are outright anti-immigrant, and now is looking at immigration generally as the source its woes instead of seeing that European nations are the authors of their own misfortune on this issue.  The problem isn't refugees, the problem isn't immigrants, the problem lies with a European Union that has failed to take any responsibility for management on both of these issues.

Even intra-European migration encounters this issue, though; one need only look at working-class opinion in the northerneastern UK toward Polish migrants, or continental European attitudes toward Roma to see that particular ugliness at work.  It's not that other countries don't experience problems and policy challenges (see:  2015 Canadian election, CPC "barbaic practices" tipline;  see also 2016 US election GOP primary), but there has been a particularly virulent form of ugliness brewing in Europe generally for the last couple decades that no one appears to be meaningfully addressing.

Europe has created in the EU a central government that should be responsible for continent-wide immigration policy - seeing as there are virtually no immigrant controls between EU members - yet has spectacularly failed to agree to give it any authority over its members on this issue.  Again, the tide of refugees shouldn't have been met on Greek beaches with a sign saying "Hey, Germany is that way, mind the Hungarians, they're sticking numbers on people again" but by a coordinated effort from the EU itself to receive, organize, aid, and ultimately designate where refugees were to be initially sent after arrival.  It should never have been on Greece, or Turkey, or any other individual member state to receive the flood, and yet it was, because nobody stepped up.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2016, 12:52:04 pm by MP-Ryan »
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Offline Mongoose

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Re: And some European countries wonder why they have integration issues...
The EU is essentially acting in this regard as the United States did under its original governing document, the Articles of Confederation: as a nominal grouping of independent actors all pulling in disparate ways without any thought to central organization.  You'll notice that the US realized within a decade that said confederation was ****awful and convened a convention to draft a legitimate federal system of government.

 
Re: And some European countries wonder why they have integration issues...
The US ended up that way because a very primitive state was deliberately split up and decentralised, as opposed to the EU forming from very old states which have increasingly grouped together.
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Re: And some European countries wonder why they have integration issues...
Side note: Turkey is not an EU member. It is part of NATO, though.

 

Offline qwadtep

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Re: And some European countries wonder why they have integration issues...
The truth is that people will adapt to countries which offer them a roof.
Countries are an abstract concept. People do not adapt to their country, but to their peers. Integration occurs because an immigrant is forced to take on peers of the host culture; it fails if you abruptly transplant a large population, as they will follow the path of least resistance and primarily take peers of their own culture.

You can't take a million people, tell them to change their ways, and not expect them to simply form an echo chamber to drown you out instead.

 

Offline 666maslo666

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Re: And some European countries wonder why they have integration issues...
According to dutch research, Iraqese and Afghani immigrants in the Netherlands commit less crimes then their dutch peers in similar socio-economic positions - In dutch crime stats, asylum seekers are under-represented. You may be correct in saying that if people do not want to change, they will not change, but you may vastly underestimate people's willingness to excell.

Quote
Non-native Dutch youths, especially young Antillean and Surinamese Rotterdammers, commit more crimes than the average. More than half of Moroccan-Dutch male youths aged 18 to 24 years in Rotterdam have ever been investigated by the police, as compared to close to a quarter of native male youths. Eighteen percent of foreign-born young people aged from 18 to 24 have been investigated for crimes.[58][59]

According to a 2009 report commissioned by Justice Minister Ernst Hirsch Ballin, 63% of the 447 teenagers convicted of serious crime are children of parents born outside the Netherlands. All these cases concern crime for which the maximum jail sentence is longer than eight years, such as robbery with violence, extortion, arson, public acts of violence, sexual assault, manslaughter and murder. The ethnic composition of the perpetrators was: native Dutch - 37%; Moroccans - 14%; Unknown origin - 14%; "other non-Westerners" - 9%; Turkish - 8%; Surinamese - 7%; Antillean - 7%; and "other Westerners" - 4%.[60] In the majority of cases, the judges did not consider the serious offences to be grave enough to necessitate an unconditional jail sentence.[60]

Analysis of police data for 2002 by ethnicity showed that 37.5 percent of all crime suspects living in the Netherlands were of foreign origin (including those of the second generation), almost twice as high as the share of immigrants in the Dutch population. The highest rates per capita were found among first and second generation male migrants of a non‐Western background. Of native male youths between the ages of 18 and 24, in 2002 2.2% were arrested, of all immigrant males of the same age 4.4%, of second generation non-Western males 6.4%. The crime rates for so‐called ‘Western migrants’ were very close to those of the native Dutch. In all groups, the rates for women were considerably lower than for men, lower than one percent, with the highest found among second generation non‐western migrants, 0.9% (Blom et al. 2005: 31).[61]

For Moroccan immigrants, whether they originate from the underdeveloped parts of Morocco has a modest impact on their crime rate. One study finds that "crime rates in the Netherlands are higher among Moroccans who come from the countryside and the Rif, or whose parents do, than among those who come from the urban provinces in Morocco and from outside the Rif, or whose parents do."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime#Netherlands

Immigrant populations from MENA region are overrepresented in crime and poverty all over Europe, including Netherlands. Your source is at best just an exception to the statistical pattern, at worst a faulty study. And we should not base our policies on exceptions.

Ethnicity alone may have no effect on social cohesion, but economical and cultural differences definitely have a negative effect. And it is those that strongly increase with unregulated immigration. As opposed to strictly regulated one, where you may end up with different skin colors, all have the same culture, a melting pot.


You are continuing to talk about the need for a common EU policy. And I agree, having common EU immigration and asylum policy would be ideal. The core of the issue is, I imagine a different policy than you. A policy based on an idea of a fortress Europe, one where European countries work together to protect the borders and track the migrants. To further the interests of each other, not those outside of EU. Humanitarian side of this common policy should consist of generous foreign aid, not open borders.

So how can Europe have common policy on immigration matters when there is little consensus on what to do?
« Last Edit: February 02, 2016, 03:06:55 am by 666maslo666 »
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Offline 666maslo666

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Re: And some European countries wonder why they have integration issues...
It is not true that we treat them like ****

Exhibit A:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_face_covering
Exhibit B:  https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/12/17/denmark-wants-to-seize-jewelry-from-refugees/
Exhibit C:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_minaret_referendum,_2009

Etc.

And this doesn't address the rise of UKIP (UK), PVV (Netherlands), AfD (Germany), National Front (France), DPP (Denmark), Jobbik (Hungary), etc in the political realms.

These are all trivial issues that certainly cannot explain rise of radicalization or lack of integration.  Heck, that ban on face covering, as much as I disagree with it for reasons of personal liberty, may actually increase integration.

People do not integrate to society based on whether they can build minarets or or how many % of votes an anti-immigrant party gets. Thats not how human mind works.

People integrate based on whether they want to integrate, and based on how much they interact with native society. Those are the deciding factors. And the reality is, muslim culture is quite conservative, they want to conserve their way of life as it is practiced in their home lands instead of assimilating, and so often they do not even want to fully integrate and assimilate. To do so would mean a betrayal of their morals and views. This is a major barrier to integration. Second, with mass immigration they can get away with interacting mostly among themselves because there are so many of them and so they form ghettos and enclaves. That is another huge barrier to successful integration.

These are the dominant factors, and not how we treat the migrants.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2016, 03:16:35 am by 666maslo666 »
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Offline 666maslo666

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Re: And some European countries wonder why they have integration issues...
Even intra-European migration encounters this issue, though; one need only look at working-class opinion in the northerneastern UK toward Polish migrants, or continental European attitudes toward Roma to see that particular ugliness at work. 

As for Roma, now that is an example where "xenophobes" of the past were proven correct by passage of time. Even hundreds of years were not enough for them to integrate into society. In hidnsight, the correct choice was to not allow them to settle in our land. As I said before, it is historically the most homogenous countries that tend to support mass immigration. Western Europe had almost no minorities just a few decades ago, so they are naive to the dangers of multiculturalism. To even see a brown person was a rarity. Contrary to that, eastern Europe was interacting with muslims and with Romas for almost a millenium. Maybe thats why our stance on the issue is much more cautious and rational, stemming from practical experience instead of naive idealism.
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Offline The E

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Re: And some European countries wonder why they have integration issues...
As I said before, it is historically the most homogenous countries that tend to support mass immigration. Western Europe had almost no minorities just a few decades ago, so they are naive to the dangers of multiculturalism. To even see a brown person was a rarity. Contrary to that, eastern Europe was interacting with muslims and with Romas for almost a millenium. Maybe thats why our stance on the issue is much more cautious and rational, stemming from practical experience instead of naive idealism.

And maybe your stance is born out of prejudice so deeply entrenched that it seems rational to you.
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Offline 666maslo666

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Re: And some European countries wonder why they have integration issues...
And maybe your stance is born out of prejudice so deeply entrenched that it seems rational to you.

Maybe. But the burden of proof should not be on me. Because if I am wrong and yet we enact fortress Europe policy, nothing bad will happen. But if I am right and yet (western) Europe continues with this open borders madness, it will lead to a persistent social problem much like the Roma, and worse. Immigration policy is not something that should be weakened based only on maybes, Europe should play it safe.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: And some European countries wonder why they have integration issues...
Maybe. But the burden of proof should not be on me. Because if I am wrong and yet we enact fortress Europe policy, nothing bad will happen.

Visit China. And then talk to me about nothing bad happening if you force a country to be a monoculture.
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: And some European countries wonder why they have integration issues...
People do not integrate to society based on whether they can build minarets or or how many % of votes an anti-immigrant party gets. Thats not how human mind works.

As for Roma, now that is an example where "xenophobes" of the past were proven correct

But if I am right and yet (western) Europe continues with this open borders madness, it will lead to a persistent social problem much like the Roma, and worse.

I have not the time, patience, or desire to teach psychology, sociology, and immigration policy to a brick wall on the Internet.
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Offline Dragon

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Re: And some European countries wonder why they have integration issues...
Maybe. But the burden of proof should not be on me. Because if I am wrong and yet we enact fortress Europe policy, nothing bad will happen.

Visit China. And then talk to me about nothing bad happening if you force a country to be a monoculture.
Don't we have enough of "our" cultures, though? Germany, for example, is anything but a monoculture without need for immigrants. Every "land" has its own traditions and culture. Same with France, Poland, the UK (why do you think its called the United Kingdom?). Blocking immigration =/= monoculturalism. China made a quite deliberate attempt to be completely homogeneous.

 

Offline The E

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Re: And some European countries wonder why they have integration issues...
Why is it that you fear cultural change so much?
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
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Re: And some European countries wonder why they have integration issues...
The truth is that people will adapt to countries which offer them a roof.
Countries are an abstract concept. People do not adapt to their country, but to their peers. Integration occurs because an immigrant is forced to take on peers of the host culture; it fails if you abruptly transplant a large population, as they will follow the path of least resistance and primarily take peers of their own culture.

You can't take a million people, tell them to change their ways, and not expect them to simply form an echo chamber to drown you out instead.

You can. A million people sounds like a lot, but the EU has 550 million citizens. It's a matter of redistribution. The Netherlands currently has 1,8 million people that have non-western origins. The largest problem we have is Geert Wilders.

 

Offline 666maslo666

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Re: And some European countries wonder why they have integration issues...
You can. A million people sounds like a lot, but the EU has 550 million citizens. It's a matter of redistribution.

I would even be fine with some redistribution but only after the flow of migrants is stopped and borders secured. Otherwise it would only serve to hide the problem and spread it around. Redistribution is just a band-aid, secure borders are the cure.

Also, it is a million but per year. It can add up over time.
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Offline 666maslo666

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Re: And some European countries wonder why they have integration issues...
Maybe. But the burden of proof should not be on me. Because if I am wrong and yet we enact fortress Europe policy, nothing bad will happen.

Visit China. And then talk to me about nothing bad happening if you force a country to be a monoculture.

I dont need to visit China to see a monoculture, I live in one (at least relatively to the multiculturalist ideal). And its really not that bad.
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