Author Topic: Bombed conversation (RE: GTB Ursa)  (Read 10817 times)

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I note that the missile pods have now been rounded off, which kind of clashes with the hard angles on the engine cowlings directly behind them.
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Offline Aesaar

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This is actually very old problem regarding artistic freedom and following original lines. And it will continue till all canon ships have 2-3 alternate versions to match every taste.

I can understand the point of artistic freedom in case of alternate versions of existing ship, just like Hades and Aesaar presented in their Herc II... That is cool, but different than standard Herc II and it's quite hard to be acceptable as default HTL model in next MediaVPs release. And the reason is very simple. For example, torpedo racks of original Ursa were boxy, so making them the way that Hades did is exactly where artistic freedom breaks the rules of upgrading canon design. MVP models should improve original designs, not change it. That's the point of FSU. Personal preferences and tastes do not count here, no matter if new side cannons and torpedo racks of Ursa looks good or not.

Some of team members of some projects claimed their ideas as more important than than project original goals... And look how many archived projects we have today. Some of them exactly because of that.
Personal preference always counts.  Modelers are doing the work for free.  Until you start paying them, they can do whatever they damn well please with the models they're making.  If you don't like that, then the only place where you have a say is whether or not the model is included in the MVPs.

If the MVPs have no room for creative freedom, then the amount of people making new models for them is going to drop.  If something kills the MVPs, it won't be modelers.  It'll be people who cry "not retail enough" and drive people of talent away because they feel entitled to a say when they themselves contribute nothing.  And if that happens, FSU will deserve to die.

Also, Hades isn't even part of the BP team. If we were talking about Steve-O's or Aesaar's models maybe you'd have a point but why would #bp be biased towards Hades? It's hardly isolated or favourable in this case, it just happens that people who spend time there liked it more than people who browse the FSU forums. And neither group is representative of the community at large.
IIRC, he might be a tester. They don't get a badge (I'm one too, though not a very active one). Also, BP in particular is biased towards "creative freedom", which is known since they let Aesar strip their most important models of nearly all of their distinctive features. :) It's exactly the place you'd want to go to when trying to "sell" a remake that drops an important aspect of the original. Fortunately, this community also has people who find the original :v: designs shouldn't be meddled with.
And most of the people like you don't give enough of a **** to start modeling themselves.  Who do you think is going to win this fight?

Here's the thing you don't get: At no point is your "contribution" necessary.  You can cry "not retail enough" all you want, but your input really isn't needed for the model to be made.  You can and will be ignored, and no one will notice.  You could stop posting entirely, and no one would notice.  These threads are a courtesy.  They are not required.  Nor are the MVPs.

FSU depends 100% on the people making models for it.  In no way does it depend on you or anyone who claims to "safeguard the purity of Volition's designs".  And if it's you that FSU listens to, then people will simply stop making models for the MVPs.  The only ones who stands to lose here are people like you.

BTW, having seen what you call "distinctive features", you're paying me a wonderful compliment.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2015, 09:19:50 pm by Aesaar »

 

Offline Zacam

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Bombed conversation (RE: GTB Ursa)
Mix all thread for the GenDisc level of conversation regarding the GTB Ursa has been split here.
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Offline Black Wolf

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I'm a bit of a purist for these things, so if it were up to me, I'd probably have made the missile launchers rectangular.

Fortunately, it is up to me! And everyone else, too. Those missile bays are fairly discrete pieces of geometry. Once the model is out, if the shape proves to be to much of a problem it's an utterly trivial job to replace or reshape them. Honestly, it's an hour, maybe two, from go to whoa to change from angled to straight sides, including any changes the UV or texs might need. It won't be an issue.

Anyway, missile pods aside, my initial impressions were pretty positive. Looking forward to seeing the engines fleshed out.

[EDIT]Ninjaed by Zacam. Will reassess where this post belongs shortly.
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Offline BrotherBryon

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Offline Dragon

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Here's the thing you don't get: At no point is your "contribution" necessary.  You can cry "not retail enough" all you want, but your input really isn't needed for the model to be made.  You can and will be ignored, and no one will notice.  You could stop posting entirely, and no one would notice.  These threads are a courtesy.  They are not required.  Nor are the MVPs.

FSU depends 100% on the people making models for it.  In no way does it depend on you or anyone who claims to "safeguard the purity of Volition's designs".  And if it's you that FSU listens to, then people will simply stop making models for the MVPs.  The only ones who stands to lose here are people like you.

BTW, having seen what you call "distinctive features", you're paying me a wonderful compliment.
I did some modeling (don't think I ever released anything here, certainly nothing playable), but I'm certainly not good enough to make replicas. I know my limits. Aside from the fact I've mostly moved on to KSP modding (lost interest in FS for a long time, as you might figure from my activity lately), I'm not that good of a modeler and I never pretended otherwise. What I really never managed to figure out is texturing and UVing complex shapes. I know that I couldn't make a replica, so I don't make them. It's even harder than making something with complete creative freedom, and I'm not even too good at the latter.

FSU doesn't only depend on modelers (though it does need them). There is an Ursa already, and it doesn't look that bad. FSU really depends on players, fans of FS who are actually going to use the models in question (modders don't even play much outside of testing, usually their own creations. I've had this happen to me, too, in two games, no less). Some of them have respect for :v: and their vision of FS. Many also have fond memories of playing FS, with all its design quirks. It seems to me that most peoples' positions are either "don't care if its one way or the other" or "it's better to keep true to :v:". Positions that actually advocate changing stuff over keeping it the same (as opposed to being fine with it either way) are much fewer in numbers (TBH, this stance seems pretty much confined to modelers themselves, for some reason...). In the end, a much smaller group of people "loses" if  :v:'s vision is respected.

The question here is: Is FSU making its own game, or trying to improve on FS2? IMO, its crucial that FSU keeps being an upgrade, not a remake. It fixes bugs and makes the game prettier, but makes no fundamental changes in gameplay, designs or missions. Ideally, there would be no arguments like this. If you like FS2, you should like FSU at least equally as much. FSU has always been an upgrade project, not a reimagination project. Now, I can't say I wouldn't play the latter (there were some missions done in that vein, better remakes of retail missions), but the "U" in FSU stands for "Upgrade" and I'd prefer it to remain that way.

 

Offline Mars

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Re: Bombed conversation (RE: GTB Ursa)
You know you CAN just play with previous versions of the mediavps and curate your own collection of upgraded assets, only keeping the one's you like, correct? There is a lot of middle ground between making all of your own models and only using mediavp assets, to the point where I suspect most long term FSO players use their own collections of assets on top of the mediavps, I know I do.

I don't think this Ursa is a radical departure, but for every model there will be someone who doesn't like it. It seems like you've been that someone an awful lot lately - and I'm not saying that as a dark critique. Perhaps you'd be happier if you started with the 2012 version of the mediavps as a template and made your own mod from there.

Certainly I think its unrealistic to have a community such as ours, in which these modelers have grown up and come into their abilities around the FS modding scene, and expect them to model nothing but the same greebled low definition ships over and over again. As time goes on, if upgrades keep on being made for this game, the upgraded models will gradually become more and more different compared to the originals, because in terms of artists abilities, average system ability, and aesthetic taste will continue to change I don't think that's something that anyone can fight, or should.

This should probably be split off from the main thread into the bombed thread.

 

Offline Hades

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(TBH, this stance seems pretty much confined to modelers themselves, for some reason...)
most likely since we do the actual modeling it gives us the perspective of having taste

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Offline BirdofPrey

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Re: Bombed conversation (RE: GTB Ursa)
I can definitely see the argument for keeping things somewhat near what the original model was, especially considering cases when it's labeled as an upgrade of an existing model, but the not canon enough nitpick does get old.

Of course at the same time, its also wearying for someone who ISN'T the modeler to keep bashing the, old models suck, change EVERYTHING button.
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Offline Black Wolf

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Re: Bombed conversation (RE: GTB Ursa)
(TBH, this stance seems pretty much confined to modelers themselves, for some reason...)
most likely since we do the actual modeling it gives us the perspective of having taste



Don't be a dick about it Hades.
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Offline mjn.mixael

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Re: Bombed conversation (RE: GTB Ursa)
As has been previously mentioned... A model that can be be a part of FSU does not guarantee it will be. I don't care if the modeller is part of the FSU team. We have turned down models before for various reasons and we'll do so again if we need to.

Stop assuming the model will be a part of the MediaVPs and stop using FSU as a reason for whatever criticisms. Then perhaps everyone can be much more objective.
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Offline BirdofPrey

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Re: Bombed conversation (RE: GTB Ursa)
Well, my view of it is that if someone is posting it in Freespace Upgrade rather than elsewhere, they are showing a desire to have it included in which case some comments regarding how well it fits in with the MVPs is valid.  It just doesn't need to be the same constant, "not close enough to original" nitpicking.  Being posted in FSU doesn't guarantee inclusion, but it does indicate the desire for inclusion, which is just as relevant.

If it isn't supposed to be sent to the pass to be checked over for possible inclusion in MVPs then it would be posted elsewhere as, "hey I made this thing"
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Offline mjn.mixael

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Re: Bombed conversation (RE: GTB Ursa)
That's true. My point was more directed at Dragon's leading to an argument about what the FSU is all about...

Quote
FSU doesn't only depend on modelers (though it does need them). There is an Ursa already, and it doesn't look that bad. FSU really depends on players, fans of FS who are actually going to use the models in question (modders don't even play much outside of testing, usually their own creations. I've had this happen to me, too, in two games, no less). Some of them have respect for :v: and their vision of FS. Many also have fond memories of playing FS, with all its design quirks. It seems to me that most peoples' positions are either "don't care if its one way or the other" or "it's better to keep true to :v:". Positions that actually advocate changing stuff over keeping it the same (as opposed to being fine with it either way) are much fewer in numbers (TBH, this stance seems pretty much confined to modelers themselves, for some reason...). In the end, a much smaller group of people "loses" if  :v:'s vision is respected.

The question here is: Is FSU making its own game, or trying to improve on FS2? IMO, its crucial that FSU keeps being an upgrade, not a remake. It fixes bugs and makes the game prettier, but makes no fundamental changes in gameplay, designs or missions. Ideally, there would be no arguments like this. If you like FS2, you should like FSU at least equally as much. FSU has always been an upgrade project, not a reimagination project. Now, I can't say I wouldn't play the latter (there were some missions done in that vein, better remakes of retail missions), but the "U" in FSU stands for "Upgrade" and I'd prefer it to remain that way.

That argument assumes the new Ursa's inclusion in the MediaVPs and then brings into question FSU as a whole. That is not, and will not be, what this turns into again. You may not use an unfinished model to start complaining about your individual problems with FSU. If you want to complain, start a new thread... or better yet, PM myself or Zacam.
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