Author Topic: Why so much Copyright breaching?! Can't we do better?  (Read 7487 times)

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Re: Why so much Copyright breaching?! Can't we do better?
If I ask you about Piracy? The answer is: It's illegal. No exceptions.
Plenty of exceptions. Different countries, different laws etc etc

I don't know of any relevant country where it's legal to redistribute music the way Freespace mods do. Do you?
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Offline Dragon

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Re: Why so much Copyright breaching?! Can't we do better?
North Korea. :) I don't know what their actual copyright law is (they might not have one at all), but it's likely not concerned with protecting "evil Western art". Russia has a somewhat milder version of this, too (it has a history of not honoring Western copyright claims). Different countries have different laws regarding copyright, and this is important. There are things that are in public domain in Europe but not in the US, for instance.

In general, I think that as long as proper attribution is observed, there's nothing wrong with using copyrighted material for noncommercial, artistic purposes. Copyright should be reformed, and that reform should prioritize artists as a whole and their audiences over media corporations. Indeed, I'd be flattered if someone used something I made to make something else, even without explicit permission. We're not getting money out of it, so you could say we're only doing it because we love those things so much. Everyone here is doing this for the art, and we're not getting anything out of it but an artistic experience.

As for morality, let's not forget "legal" and "moral" are not only not the same things, but can in fact be the opposite at times (yes, even in "civilized" countries). We definitely should be doing what is right, but while it's preferable for it to be legal, I think it doesn't necessarily have to be (it is a huge responsibility, though. If you wish to judge those things yourself, you're on your own and it's up to you to stand for your decisions). Remember that in case of most of the music and art we reuse, the copyright is there to protect whatever corporation is selling the stuff, not the actual artist. We are not stealing things - mods generally state (IIRC) where their music, assets and such came from. Sometimes it does get muddy - an asset in a popular mod could be re-used and that mod would likely be credited, because it's easier than looking in the credits. :) While not strictly immoral, I think it's not a decent thing to do, the original author should be given respect.

If anything, we may need better enforcement of attribution rules. It shouldn't be taken to ridiculous levels, but someone ensuring that we know where every asset comes from likely wouldn't hurt the community. Only the biggest mods like BP can afford to make original music (in which case it's preferable, and not only because of copyright issues).

 

Offline swashmebuckle

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Re: Why so much Copyright breaching?! Can't we do better?
As far as the legal side goes, the stakes are pretty low (C&D letter) unless a mod hits it huge. I think around here only BP has anything to worry about if it goes standalone and explodes (which it deserves to because it's great).

As for the "making the world a better place" angle, I'd like to see more modders start to identify and act like creative artists rather than consumers and adopt some of that spirit, most relevantly when it comes to not ****ing your brothers and sisters over for the sake of the audience or your own project of the moment.

It really comes down to simply obtaining consent if you want to use someone else's work. Everyone should feel welcome to put their work out there and vie for people's attention, but jacking other people's work to make your work look better would be messed up no matter what IP laws were like.

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Why so much Copyright breaching?! Can't we do better?
copyright only lasts for the lifetime of the author+how ever long Walt Disney has been dead for + 10 years +/- 10 years
FTFY

(it's 70 years BTW, or 120 years if made by a corporation)
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Offline Black Wolf

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Re: Why so much Copyright breaching?! Can't we do better?
OK, so this is obviously an emotive topic for some people. I gee that. But there's no reason to be hyperbolic about it.

No joke, I fear that if our 'example to all modders' was seen by the wrong person it could very well be the end of HLP; that simple, and I worry that we seem to be blindly stumbling into it.

That is definitely not the case, luckily. The structure that HLP has makes it very clear that the mods are hosted projects, so I'd imagine that they would be considered legally separate sub-entities. Also, HLP doesn't directly host any of the objectionable material - mods get uploaded to places like Freespacemods, Sectorgame (FS Files now I guess), Mediafire etc. The worst that a musical rights holder could do would be a C+D to individual projects (which could reorganize their musical choices and re-release pretty quickly) or to hosting sites telling them to remove specific files. In the US, I imagine it would take the form of a DMCA takedown notice, which happens all the time and doesn't bring down larger entities. HLP itself would be legally insulated.

And quite frankly? I think it's the community self-justified vandal ways that are scaring away folks that would fill the gaps there are in content production. And then there are projects like BP that hoard up artists, leaving lesser/beginner modders to pick bones for blood.

I would definitely like to see proof of this before it was used as a basis for anything. Yes, there have been threads here and there about people recognizing specific tracks in BP and the like, but presenting it as some sort of broad based problem that's scaring off large numbers of people is a big call. I'd expect some big evidence to back it up.

Also, this isn't really the thread to talk about the distribution of individuals to specific projects, but ultimately it is entirely the decision of individual modders which projects they work on. I can't ever remember a situation where someone was pressured into working on a specific project, large or small, and it would be utterly pointless to do so, since the motivation that working on a truly fun and interesting project can only come from actually working on a project that a modder finds fun and interesting. If smaller projects want more help, they need to be prepared to make their projects more fun and interesting for modders. There's literally no other option (other than paying people I suppose).


If there truely is a desire by those who feel so morally strong about this subject, to have HLP made mods thread a more legal ground. Go petition Sandwich on making that hlp paypal money available for mods to buy music rights with, or 'royality free' licensed music. Or something.

I don't think this will happen, luckily. Those funds weren't provided for that purpose. However, the idea stands - if this is something people feel has that much traction in the community, go start a kickstarter or indiegogo campaign for your favourite mod to buy its music. I doubt it'll go anywhere, but that's just me.



In terms of the actual topic at hand, well, to be entirely honest, it's not one I feel particularly strongly about. When I have hunted down music on my own, I have looked exclusively for royalty free stuff from soundcloud, newgrounds etc., but when Lepanto added music for one of his Frontlines missions, I admit that I didn't check where it came from. If someone decides that they want it taken down, we can replace it in short order and be back up again.

Ultimately, this is a project specific issue, not a HLP wide issue. If one particular project bothers you, talk to them specifically (though I think that the three projects mainly mentioned in this thread (WoD, BP and DE) have all made their positions clear).
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Offline Spoon

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Re: Why so much Copyright breaching?! Can't we do better?
I don't think this will happen, luckily. Those funds weren't provided for that purpose. However, the idea stands - if this is something people feel has that much traction in the community, go start a kickstarter or indiegogo campaign for your favourite mod to buy its music. I doubt it'll go anywhere, but that's just me.
Sandwich seemed pretty happy about donating those funds to fund the kickstarter, and he totally would have, if there was enough community support for it. Since its probably his account and he feels like there is money to throw around, I don't see why those moneydollars couldn't become a modders resource if there was community support for it. Clearly all of it is not needed to run just the servers.

I'm not actually really pushing for this, I'm just throwing around a random idea as opposed to just whining about how someone's copyright might be violated without actually trying to provide any valid alternative to these violations. Can ''we'' do better? Sure, but for most modders it will be a investment with absolutely no returns. And unless the people that supposedly actually care about this are willing to provide any actual help mods to avoid copyright infringment, this whole thread is moot.
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Offline Dragon

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Re: Why so much Copyright breaching?! Can't we do better?
TBH, if we were to pay for dealing with the issue of copyrighted music, I'd rather use that money to hire a composer to make a bespoke soundtrack. This is something that really makes mods a lot better, and also avoids the awkward "hey, I know that one!" effect. It can be jarring to hear something in a mod that you've heard somewhere else entirely, in a completely different context to boot. Given the expense of the more popular tracks, this might even end up much cheaper.

 

Offline Black Wolf

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Re: Why so much Copyright breaching?! Can't we do better?
...I don't see why those moneydollars couldn't become a modders resource if there was community support for it. Clearly all of it is not needed to run just the servers.

I'm not actually really pushing for this, I'm just throwing around a random idea as opposed to just whining about how someone's copyright might be violated without actually trying to provide any valid alternative to these violations.

That's fair enough, I'm kind of cagey about real money after the blowback that the modding contest got on that front. That, and the fact that as Dragon's post demonstrates, getting broad agreement about how to use such a community resource outside of it's originally intended purpose would be nigh on impossible.

Personality, if it were to be opened up for modders (and I don't really think it should be), I'd prefer to see it parcelled out as a series of grants people could compete for (I.e. Propose what you want to do with the money and let the community vote to select the most useful/worthy) rather than just saying "This is for getting rid of copyright music." But I do get that you're not really trying to do that, so no harm.
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Offline swashmebuckle

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Re: Why so much Copyright breaching?! Can't we do better?
I will make mod soundtrack you most give moneys

 

Offline SypheDMar

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Re: Why so much Copyright breaching?! Can't we do better?
So Vassago's Dirge has nothing to fear.
Not true. Axem did do one thing most other mods didn't: credit the performers and encourage people to buy their CD.

Honestly, we have no excuse for this. It's been my primary complaint with the modding community here as well, and claiming fair use is a gray area that we shouldn't have to cross.

It's a shame that finding equally good royalty free music is not as easy, but I think that by starting the search with royalty free music first is a better step at avoiding legal grays than starting with copy right and looking for a substitute.

Edit: Wow, I'm disturbed by the apathy in this thread. This isn't a legal issue. This is an ethical one, and only a few people seem to get that.

As for you copyright reformists, it's not only mega corporations that are having their music used in modding. Smaller producers are downloaded too. What about their rights, or are they suppose to starve because that's what artists do?

I don't care what goes on outside of HLP. But the fact that we're condoning it here is just sad and hypocritical. Like, torrenting FreeSpace is not okay, but downloading gigabytes of copyright movies is?

 

Offline 666maslo666

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Re: Why so much Copyright breaching?! Can't we do better?
As long as the mods dont earn any money and give credit, I see no ethical issue. Not unless the copyright holder actively complains about it.
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Why so much Copyright breaching?! Can't we do better?
As for you copyright reformists, it's not only mega corporations that are having their music used in modding. Smaller producers are downloaded too. What about their rights, or are they suppose to starve because that's what artists do?

Unless the proposal to use HLP moneys to buy licences for those soundtracks gets any traction, that "ethical concern" is pretty much moot from the very beggining, since all those poor starving artists whose rights are being trampled and abused and oh my god the humanity, would never see any money at all anyway, so what the hell are you railing about? You are speaking as if these mods are money making enterprises and not actually free work from modders to the community themselves. The level of empathy you are showing for the creators of those soundtracks, I think you are absolutely forgetting about the actual modders here. They don't get a penny as well. Are they starving? Should they work harder so that these soundtrack licences don't get trampled? Who would win there? No one.

Except of course if people are willing to buy licences for the mods they love. In which case, by all means.

 
Re: Why so much Copyright breaching?! Can't we do better?
As for you copyright reformists, it's not only mega corporations that are having their music used in modding. Smaller producers are downloaded too. What about their rights, or are they suppose to starve because that's what artists do?

JFC, nobody's starving because BP uses some music from films and Two Steps From Hell in their mod. There is no actual revenue at stake here whatsoever.
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Why so much Copyright breaching?! Can't we do better?
I suppose my concern is that, whilst music companies are not all that interested in Game Mods right now, that's because it's not exceptionally widespread and therefore not in the legal departments interests to pursue it wholesale, but the more people that actually breach the letter of the copyright, the more likely it is that interest will be taken.

 

Offline T-Man

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Re: Why so much Copyright breaching?! Can't we do better?
Aye, I admit my concern is not really the legal mattes (Hoover is I suppose right that no one is going to starve here; even Jillian Aversa will probably be okay (you may remember the song form a trailer);, though she isn't exactly a big company by the sounds of it and I'd have hoped someone at least asked her). My concern is more the ethical aspects; what does it say to outsiders about HLPers if word ever got out? I wouldn't want anyone to not be able to get work or respect in places simply because they happened to be connected to us.

There's also a more personal level to that worry (and again, sorry to bring this up but feel need to); some of the people involved in stuff like this and apparently taking the non-caring stance are not just 'community members', they're global moderators and heads of major projects (IIRC one even did an interview representing the entire community!). They are people we've put in positions of trust that we are called upon as community members to respect. The paranoid part of me asks; if those people can are this uncaring about one aspect of the law, what else might they not care about? If ever a time came when I really needed their help or needed to trust them with something, could I? Is it right for me to have to respect their positions knowing how little they seem to value the position (and rights) of others? I wouldn't feel right having them represent us either, as to do and then for word to get out of what they've might be seen as all of us saying 'We condone breaking this law', which again might damage the rep of anyone part of HLP; some don't mind it clearly, but what about those of us who do? Is it right to force it (and the potential fallout of it) upon us? I give my word this is not a personal attack on anyone; just a concern about image and, well, honour (a word that to many nowadays is I sadly fear a throwaway silliness but is one that means a lot to me).

The idea of the fund for it is interesting, but I likely wouldn't ask sandwich for access to the current fund as that's for running HLP and community projects; I'd probably look to set up a new separate paypal if it came to that. I'm also not entirely up to speed yet on what sort of costs we're be talking about (obviously if it's too much than it's a futile concept). I do have the means to look into it in at least one case, but have held back (and was also asked to hold back and agreed to) since to do so will likely draw attention to HLP.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2014, 10:23:24 am by T-Man »
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Re: Why so much Copyright breaching?! Can't we do better?
I suppose my concern is that, whilst music companies are not all that interested in Game Mods right now, that's because it's not exceptionally widespread and therefore not in the legal departments interests to pursue it wholesale, but the more people that actually breach the letter of the copyright, the more likely it is that interest will be taken.
Yes, that is the legal side of things. The ethical side of things is that what modders are doing is of no possible harm to anyone.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Why so much Copyright breaching?! Can't we do better?
I think more harm is done by being too obsessed with the perfectionality of these Copyright "issues" regarding free mods that were done from the heart of really generous people, than actually with the "issues" themselves, which aren't hurting anyone whatsoever that I can name at all. And if a particular case gets brought to light where indeed someone feels they have been hurt by the inclusion of his / her sound on a mod (hey it's possible I guess...), then I think we should be empathetic to their plight and provide a response to that that is appropriate to the creator.

Until then, I label these concerns either in the "Concern Trolling" category or in the "Obsessive Compulsive Disorder Perfectionalist Concerns" one.

 

Offline T-Man

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Re: Why so much Copyright breaching?! Can't we do better?
...or in the "Obsessive Compulsive Disorder Perfectionalist Concerns" one...
Me in a nutshell essentially; not afraid to call a spade a spade :o. I am, for the record, like that because I see people who are not (in RL, on the net, and on the news) every day, and what they do or are willing to do without even thinking, and it horrifies and depresses me (as silly as that might sound to some). I am an odd thinking person I know, but given what I see of 'normal', 'thinking' people nowadays, I'm happy to stay that way.

Pardon the brief Off-topic there.
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Offline IronBeer

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Re: Why so much Copyright breaching?! Can't we do better?
(Upfront disclaimer: I've got a busy day ahead, so I won't be able to check back up, update, or respond to this post for a while if anybody notices. I am not a lawyer or a businessman and am basing the following suggestion on a single anecdotal datapoint. Take the following in the spirit it is offered.)

How difficult would it be to actually go legit and cut a licensing deal with copyright holders.... (sees earlier in the thread). I'm not talking about HLP cutting a deal, I'm talking about individual modders. For example, the FiXT label has a program for licensing their music in YouTube videos, and musing on this program is what first got me thinking. I'd bet that program could be extended to cover explicitly non-commercial game modding as well. More importantly, I'd wager that contacting somebody working with that program could point out additional sources of easily-licensed music, and could provide guidance on procuring non-commercial licenses from bigger labels.

My first instinct with an initiative like this would be to avoid making this an "HLP initiative". I cannot properly articulate actual reasons for that other than a vague instinct that advises against drawing the attention of commercial forces here.

I do in fact plan to contact FiXT when I'm less busy, and I will try to craft a form letter that could be used to inquire at larger music publishers about using their tracks non-commercially.

Update as I type this and review: FiXT does have a program for using their tracks in video games.

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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Why so much Copyright breaching?! Can't we do better?
Small, extremely small tip: I actually recommend for anyone modding the usage of Nine Inch Nails' album Ghosts, which is comprised of 36 all instrumental songs that are just awesome for soundtrack purposes, and the whole album is licenced under Creative Commons so yeah.