Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - FS2 Required => Blue Planet => Topic started by: Lunadance on March 03, 2012, 08:14:49 pm
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I am playing through the phase 2 of Delenda Est. But it failed because Katana always destroyed.
Sometimes, I managed to destroy all the green beams of Iolanthe(2 on bow, 2 on stern) and Deianira(2 on bow), but still keep losing Katana.
Thus, I pressed F4 then I found Katana is destroyed by Altan Orde!!(22%, 26%, two observations)
I've searched a bit about this mission but I didn't see anyone noticed about this.
Is there something I missed or anyone have suggestion on this ? Thanks !!
(Sorry for potential grammar errors)
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Let me just say that this may explain why I keep losing recently (the other alternative and the one I assumed prior to this is that I suck and need to play FS2 again). I kept losing the Katana most of the time even though I disabled the corvettes. At the time, I thought it was the cruisers and the Carthage that beamed it to death awhile after I disarmed both corvettes.
EDIT: When I have the chance, I'll confirm if that's really the case.
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Oh lord... :\
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vishnans told the altan orde's gunner that the imperieuse was on its way but nobody would listen to him so he sneaky blow up the katana so the wargods have to break off the attack
he is a hero who makes the tough choices needed to save lives
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Could it be the relative positions of the missile launchers? I haven't looked at them, but if the launchers are both shooting vertical, and next to each other, and say there is an enemy target below and to the right of the frigate on the right, the one on the left may be accidentally shooting the one on the right. This would be fixed by having the missile launchers either face the other frigate or face completely away from the other frigate.
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vishnans told the altan orde's gunner that the imperieuse was on its way but nobody would listen to him so he sneaky blow up the katana so the wargods have to break off the attack
he is a hero who makes the tough choices needed to save lives
It's what Captain Gennady would have wanted. Being on the other side of the ledger and all.
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Just cheated through the mission so I could pay attention to what the Altan Orde and Katana were doing. The Katana took a little bit of a burst flak bath as the Altan Orde's gunners oh-so-helpfully picked off some strikecraft that were attacking the Katana, but there wasn't any friendly fire from apocalypses, mass drivers, or gauss cannons.
Keep in mind that the kill calculations disregard beam damage* -- the Altan Orde didn't do 22-26% of all damage done to the Katana, just 22-26% of all non-beam damage done to the Katana. That probably isn't very much, really.
*unless this was changed in 3.6.14
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There should be AI Profile options in BP that make beam damage count, but this is still pretty ****ing weird. Please keep an eye on this and let us know what's happening.
That section of the battle has always been really, really thorny balance-wise, and has always walked an incredibly narrow tightrope between impossibly hard and self-playing.
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Did the Carthage's slash beams fire before the update? They fire now, so that might be a factor. I have noticed that I come much closer to losing the Jovian Frigates than I used to, but I thought that was because I replaced the Carthage's green beams with blue beams. The frigates are typically down to 10-15% health by the time the Imperieuse shows up. Might have to try again with the standard green beams.
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This might explain why my recent WiH playthrough was so damn hard @ DE.. ;o
I lost the frigate so many times, and a vast majority of the time I couldn't see enemy fire hitting the ship, guess it was being shot in the arse..
Not a great thing to miss considering >.>
If you can't view this I apologise, it's banned in some countries because of the music (...I think?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bOKVguQpaY
This set of tactics and positionings should get you through this mission on any difficulty regardless of circumstances.
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Just cheated through the mission so I could pay attention to what the Altan Orde and Katana were doing. The Katana took a little bit of a burst flak bath as the Altan Orde's gunners oh-so-helpfully picked off some strikecraft that were attacking the Katana, but there wasn't any friendly fire from apocalypses, mass drivers, or gauss cannons.
If they're not shooting missiles into each other, then what's happening?
Could you do more testing, Lunadance? Try sitting back and observing Altan Orde and Katana.
Last time I played DE, everything worked perfectly, though this was some time ago.
Also, on what difficulty do you play?
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Just cheated through the mission so I could pay attention to what the Altan Orde and Katana were doing. The Katana took a little bit of a burst flak bath as the Altan Orde's gunners oh-so-helpfully picked off some strikecraft that were attacking the Katana, but there wasn't any friendly fire from apocalypses, mass drivers, or gauss cannons.
If they're not shooting missiles into each other, then what's happening?
Could you do more testing, Lunadance? Try sitting back and observing Altan Orde and Katana.
Last time I played DE, everything worked perfectly, though this was some time ago.
Also, on what difficulty do you play?
Hello everyone, I tried 4 more times to see whats going on, and this is the result:
Do nothing :
Katana falls due to Deianira(21%), at 15 seconds to overload. (Sighted ships attacking Katana : Carthage, Joketsu, Deianira, Iolanthe)
Detooth Iolanthe only :
Katana falls due to Deianira(43%).
Detooth Deianira only :
Altan Orde falls due to Iolanthe(21%), but Katana has only 6% hull left.
Detooth Deianira and Iolanthe, at 80 seconds to overload(At this moment Katana has around 80% hull) :
Katana falls due to Altan Orde(24%).
I was playing on level easy (Not really good at evading missiles and flaks), no checkpoints or cheats used.
Thanks for your replies!
EDIT :
In the last trial, I did nothing except detoothing Deianira and Iolanthe. Katana survived for a period of time before it's destroyed.
I pressed F4 after I finished the last beam. The last countdown message was on 80s. Then I did nothing else.
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At 80s to overload? With 80% hull? This seems improbable. Are you sure this data as right? Does Katana's HP go down from 80% at a fast, constant rate? That would mean it's self-destructing, and that would in turn mean a SEXP bug. I don't see any better explanation, this is plain weird. Also, try pressing "G" key while targeting the Katana, which will show you the closest ship attacking it.
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At 80s to overload? With 80% hull? This seems improbable. Are you sure this data as right? Does Katana's HP go down from 80% at a fast, constant rate? That would mean it's self-destructing, and that would in turn mean a SEXP bug. I don't see any better explanation, this is plain weird. Also, try pressing "G" key while targeting the Katana, which will show you the closest ship attacking it.
The % may be imprecise, but in the message log, the overload process did stopped at 80s. The rate of HP decreasing wasn't fast, but not sure if it's constant.
There were lots of ships attacking Katana, including the corvettes and the Aeolus cruisers and Carthage itself.
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So you're saying the Katana dies faster if you disarm the corvettes?
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So you're saying the Katana dies faster if you disarm the corvettes?
Nope, what I could say is that in some circumstances, Katana will die in friendly fire.
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I remember playing through this mission a couple weeks ago and thinking something was weird with Katana. It always kept dying on me even after disarming the corvettes and everything else I could find. I'm playing through the mission right now and will edit this when I get some more observations at that point. Playing on Normal Difficulty, flying the Uriel with default primaries, 1 bank of darts and 2 banks of Slammers. I'll try to watch targets and timestamps since I don't have any fancy recording software or monitoring tools.
Pireciter
Edit: 1st playthrough, reached the 1st checkpoint ~6 minutes in. I did not start disarming the corvettes until the Katana and Altan Orde jumped in. Main beams disarmed on Iolanthe and Deianira with ~30% left on Katana(35 seconds left on overload). Sat and watched until Katana died(which happened). I didn't see any friendly fire hitting it, just a lot of AA beams and a couple slashes. Did seem like everything was preferring Katana over Altan Orde in target choice. Orde still had ~90% hull. Running through again now.
Edit2: 2nd playthrough, similar results(main beams disarmed at about 60/80% Katana/Altan Orde)....did notice the Grissom was going pewpew with about a million missiles one right after the other all targeting Katana. Fire rate was about one per second. By design? No friendly fire it appeared visually. Playing again...
Edit3: 3rd playthrough, watched the Grissom a little closer this time. Destroyed the main beams on the corvettes and did nothing but watch it. It sent out a stream of missiles about one a second and by the time the beams were gone, there was a line of them "connecting" Katana and Grissom. Katana seemed unwilling/unable to target and destroy them and I did not attempt because by the time I thought of trying...Katana died and I had to restart. Are they by design where you are supposed to intercept them?
I need to head out for a bit, but will play again when I return and confirm what I saw. Also will try to destroy them this time around.
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Just to contribute a little bit, I was able to get through the mission on RC1. (I haven't upgraded in a while. :nervous:)
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I noticed reading through the mission file that the Altan Orde gets Heavy Armor 80 as soon as it arrives, but the Katana is not given an armor class until the Deianira and Iolanthe are destroyed or withdraw (at which point both the Katana and Altan Orde are both given Heavy Armor 100). Was this always the case?
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Karunas default at Heavy 100
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I noticed reading through the mission file that the Altan Orde gets Heavy Armor 80 as soon as it arrives, but the Katana is not given an armor class until the Deianira and Iolanthe are destroyed or withdraw (at which point both the Katana and Altan Orde are both given Heavy Armor 100). Was this always the case?
In early versions of the mission (including the release) both ships got Heavy Armor 150 when the beam overload kicked in, possibly earlier :nervous:
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I just ran into a person IRL who has played Blue Planet and he complained a lot about really weird bugs in Delenda Est. Sounds like we really need to check this out.
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I just ran into a person IRL who has played Blue Planet and he complained a lot about really weird bugs in Delenda Est. Sounds like we really need to check this out.
That seems statistically insane, but very cool, and yet very unfortunate.
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I remember playing through this mission a couple weeks ago and thinking something was weird with Katana. It always kept dying on me even after disarming the corvettes and everything else I could find. I'm playing through the mission right now and will edit this when I get some more observations at that point. Playing on Normal Difficulty, flying the Uriel with default primaries, 1 bank of darts and 2 banks of Slammers. I'll try to watch targets and timestamps since I don't have any fancy recording software or monitoring tools.
Pireciter
Edit: 1st playthrough, reached the 1st checkpoint ~6 minutes in. I did not start disarming the corvettes until the Katana and Altan Orde jumped in. Main beams disarmed on Iolanthe and Deianira with ~30% left on Katana(35 seconds left on overload). Sat and watched until Katana died(which happened). I didn't see any friendly fire hitting it, just a lot of AA beams and a couple slashes. Did seem like everything was preferring Katana over Altan Orde in target choice. Orde still had ~90% hull. Running through again now.
Edit2: 2nd playthrough, similar results(main beams disarmed at about 60/80% Katana/Altan Orde)....did notice the Grissom was going pewpew with about a million missiles one right after the other all targeting Katana. Fire rate was about one per second. By design? No friendly fire it appeared visually. Playing again...
Edit3: 3rd playthrough, watched the Grissom a little closer this time. Destroyed the main beams on the corvettes and did nothing but watch it. It sent out a stream of missiles about one a second and by the time the beams were gone, there was a line of them "connecting" Katana and Grissom. Katana seemed unwilling/unable to target and destroy them and I did not attempt because by the time I thought of trying...Katana died and I had to restart. Are they by design where you are supposed to intercept them?
I need to head out for a bit, but will play again when I return and confirm what I saw. Also will try to destroy them this time around.
So the Katana got killed by a frickin' Fusion Mortar?
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The fusion mortar actually does more damage over time than the sgreen.
This is much more a reflection on the sgreen than it is on the fusion mortar.
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Actually it does about the same as an SRed, because it's an explosive. :D
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So the Katana got killed by a frickin' Fusion Mortar?
Meh, without knowing and/or having access to damage logs I couldn't say, it was just what I saw. Only saw a scattering of AA beams hitting Katana, though I suspect there was some pulse weapons or something I didn't see. Seemed like there was constant damage coming in. Didn't seem like a constant rate, but that escort icon was continuously flashing. Maybe I'll buy Fraps or something so I can record what I am seeing to review it more. It sucks playing 10 minutes of a mission again and again just to watch for 30 seconds.
Another question on the 2nd wave warp-in: How are Katana/Altan Orde's arrival points calculated? Forgive my ignorance of game mechanics and how warp in/outs are setup, but it seems like their arrival point changes from mission to mission. Sometimes they seem farther away and close the distance, other times they are right on top of the Carthage. Probably just imagining things...
Pi
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So the Katana got killed by a frickin' Fusion Mortar?
Meh, without knowing and/or having access to damage logs I couldn't say, it was just what I saw. Only saw a scattering of AA beams hitting Katana, though I suspect there was some pulse weapons or something I didn't see. Seemed like there was constant damage coming in. Didn't seem like a constant rate, but that escort icon was continuously flashing. Maybe I'll buy Fraps or something so I can record what I am seeing to review it more. It sucks playing 10 minutes of a mission again and again just to watch for 30 seconds.
Can't you just load from the checkpoint?
Another question on the 2nd wave warp-in: How are Katana/Altan Orde's arrival points calculated? Forgive my ignorance of game mechanics and how warp in/outs are setup, but it seems like their arrival point changes from mission to mission. Sometimes they seem farther away and close the distance, other times they are right on top of the Carthage. Probably just imagining things...
Pi
This is usually caused by loading checkpoints too fast after mission start.
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Can't you just load from the checkpoint?
I've been running the mission from the Tech Room using the Mission Simulator. It's not letting me load checkpoints from there when I play the single mission. Never gives me the option when I try to replay mission at the "Katana died, you suck" debriefing. Is there a way to get the checkpoints to load from there?
Pi
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Oh, bleh, you're right, it's impossible to use checkpoints from the tech room. There were special dev commands buried in the mission to enable the checkpoints, but I think they're probably disabled in the release version.
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Lame.
Oh well, least I will get lots of dogfighting practice.
Pi
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At 80s to overload? With 80% hull? This seems improbable. Are you sure this data as right? Does Katana's HP go down from 80% at a fast, constant rate? That would mean it's self-destructing, and that would in turn mean a SEXP bug. I don't see any better explanation, this is plain weird. Also, try pressing "G" key while targeting the Katana, which will show you the closest ship attacking it.
Hi, after few more trials, I think Katana has 80% hull at 80s to overload is totally possible.
I looked about the amount of damage dealt on Katana.
As pireciter said, beams are all favor Katana over Altan Orde.
There are (exclude Deianira and Iolanthe):
2 Aeolus : 4SGreen (2888 per pulse, 45s recharge)
Carthage : 2 TerSlash (3850 per pulse, 10s recarge)
These beams could deal nearly 20k dmg right after the presence of Katana. Not even to mention TerSlash has only 10s recharge time and I already excluded two major threats.
As the result, it's not improbable, it seems to me this is very likely to happen.
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This is funny. I just played Delenda Est yesterday and could finish it without any problems. I even was once again impressed how perfectly balanced this mission is. ^^
Has there been any changes to DE since the original release?
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Just to let y'all know, I'm pretty sure that using Checkpoints gives you a completely different situation than not using them.
Without checkpoints, Altan Orde/ Katana warp in about 5~7 clicks out from the Carthage (Can't remember exactly what it is off the top of my head), the fighters swarm and get slaughtered by the four Karuna flak pocket (Makes me feel sorry for the Tevs... >.>) and then the Karunas start hitting the cruiser screen.
With Checkpoint 1, I found that the ALtan Orde/ Katana warped in at around 3 clicks, (with the Indus and Yang-tze right behind), making it so that the fighter screen and the crusiers hit at the same time. (And incidentally making it a LOT harder to take out those beams >.>)
You might want to take that into account while playtesting... =p
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I think that has to do with how rapidly you load the checkpoint after mission start. Are you sure you've updated your BP to the latest version? (This is just a check - the issue probably still can't be totally fixed.)
Could you wait until the Indus has slowed down completely from its initial warpin before loading the checkpoint, and see if that makes a difference?
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That would be it, probably... when I restart the mission, I always hit the checkpoint as soon as possible. I am running the latest version of BP. I will check to see if the mission works properly if I wait, eventually...
Oh, and as might also be important, I get an error message (A pop-up outside of the freespace window) every single time I launch the mission. I'll post that when I get around to playing through WiH again. =p
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Just a heads up, I'm having a similar problem now with DE. On easy and hard either the Katan or Altan Orde seem to always be taking hits. I've disarmed all corvette beams before they jump in and some of the cruiser beams too and I sat and watched them. I couldn't see them take any actual hits aside from the infrequent anti-fighter beam and some lasers here and there. On my most recent playthrough I got both of them through alive (on Hard) then immediately after the cutscene where the Imperiuse arrives this happens:
(http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/183/fs2open3614rc4sse201203.png)
Just to reiterate; both frigates were alive (albeit at 8-9% hull) before the Imperiuse arrived and both of them were firing at the Carthage as far as I could tell.
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Oh brother. (http://fi.somethingawful.com/images/smilies/negativeman-55f.png)
We need to figure out whether this is a FRED bug or an AI bug in line with recent reports. This is a big deal.
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I'm sorry we're killing your baby, we really don't mean to. :(
Also, forgot to mention no checkpoints were used. I'll try again from a checkpoint and see what happens.
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It's not your fault at all - in fact I'm super grateful for the input and the help. This part of the mission has always been really finicky, and it seems to be kind of a mineshaft parakeet for bugs in new SCP builds.
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I opened up Delenda Est in FRED and added a pair of events that track the amount of damage the Altan Orde and Katana have done to each other and send messages whenever one damages the other. I made no other changes to the mission aside from adding the messages and variables necessary for the events to work.
Playing through on Very Easy, the Altan Orde did eight damage to the Katana spread out over about 45 seconds, and the Katana did eight damage to the Altan Orde all in one go. I didn't see any obvious weapon fire between the two frigates in either case, and neither were destroyed until they were beamed by the Imperieuse (the Carthage got the kill for both). If GB would like, I can post the modified mission file here so that people who have the frigates blowing each other up can playtest with it and find out when the bulk of the damage is occurring.
On a semi-related note, Karunas having debris now is wonderful and really builds the atmosphere of Delenda Est--at the end of the mission, you can see the Imperieuse coming out of the Jovian ships' debris field as it bears down on the Yangtze. Unfortunately, in my playthrough today the Insuperable got plowed by a chunk of Altan Orde before it could get off that wonderful line about telling the Imperieuse it was surrendering.
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I guess the Karuna captains just couldn't take it anymore and snapped. "You know what Genady? I have had it with your ****! I'll desperta your ferro!"
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Pompos: can you link an attachment so I can dl that please?
And I think it's actually a plot by the Fedayeen who are playing both sides because they are actually the GTI in disguise which is why they don't even exist. ;)
EDIT: Just played the Blade Itself there, the Altan Orde died really quickly. I tried ignoring the bombers and going straight for the Ania on my 2nd playthrough, but again AO bought the farm. Is it possible armour events aren't triggering?
I'm getting the impression these two frigates were built on the cheap. Buy one get one free deal, Tesco Shipbuilding Corp.
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Come to think of it, I noticed the Altan Orde going down really quickly the last time I played TBI, too. I kind of assumed it was intended since the AO being at 7-14% doesn't really matter since nothing but the first corvette attacks it anyway, but the armor being bugged makes sense.
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Sweet lord almighty. :(
I wish I could be more use. Could a kind, talented soul please diff The Blade Itself on a current build vs. 3.6.12 (or any earlier version of 3.6.14), then possibly build a test mission firing armor events to repro?
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Pompos: can you link an attachment so I can dl that please?
Sure. The messages you're looking for are regular messages, not training messages (I didn't want them to interfere with the beam overload alerts). They've got alarm.ogg.
[attachment deleted by ninja]
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A test mission firing of an MBlue does 33% to a Karuna at Heavy Armor 150 and 23% on default. Result is the same on both RC2 and RC5.
Replaying TBI on Very Easy, Altan Orde rescued at 23% on RC2. Similar figure on RC5, but the Altan Orde continued to drop to 10% due to Simak Station spazzing out and colliding with it at 400m/s around it, which ceased once both corvettes were destroyed.
Which I -think- used to happen in 3.6.12, but I don't have the older version of BP to check.
[attachment deleted by ninja]
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Hey, assuming the BP2 update rolled out recently contains all the new HUD tables, we could port The Blade Itself over to our new capship command interface. Worth doing eventually.
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BTW, is Simak Station SUPPOSED to spaz out when you get anywhere remotely close to it? Once I made the mistake of getting within two clicks, and then it randomly decided to start flying around randomly, (At some ridiculous speed, like someone was moving it like an icon on a desktop... :shaking:) and walloped me down half to death... :confused:
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BTW, is Simak Station SUPPOSED to spaz out when you get anywhere remotely close to it? Once I made the mistake of getting within two clicks, and then it randomly decided to start flying around randomly, (At some ridiculous speed, like someone was moving it like an icon on a desktop... :shaking:) and walloped me down half to death... :confused:
No, the station is supposed to be immobile, with the immobile flag set. Did that get ****ed up too?
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I mean, it wasn't even moving around like a ship; it was literally jumping around. I can try video capping it, if I can reproduce it
EDIT: Okay, I reproduced it in a rather trippy video. Unfortunately, its also like 131 MB in size. Should I upload it here, somewhere else, or what?
And in case you want more detailed info for now, this is what I did:
I enabled cheats (the exact same thing happened to me the other day without them, so I figured they wouldn't change anything and I'm feeling too lazy to actually do the mission right now), turning on invincibility for myself, Simak, and the Altan Orde. I then proceeded to ram Simak station, (again, didn't do this before; I only got fairly close, but the same thing happened...) And the station literally stuck to me, rotating along my front as I turned (as far as I could tell.) Then, I managed to shake it off, only to have it orbiting around my wake. :confused:
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Are you sure Simiak wasn't just getting stuck on your Rotator? There's a vid somewhere on youtube of exactly that happening, it's been around since 3612 at least.
I'll play the modified DE after work.
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Are we now comparing TBI to DE or what?
I mean, two completly different missions, which are most likely not scripted and fredded the same way...this is...odd...
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Are we now comparing TBI to DE or what?
I mean, two completly different missions, which are most likely not scripted and fredded the same way...this is...odd...
No. We are trying to figure out of there's a bug in both missions related to armor events.
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Unless I'm missing something, that can't be the issue in Delenda Est. There isn't an armor event for the Katana.
Edit: ...until after the corvettes pull out, and that event just sets it to Heavy 100, which is the Karuna default.
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Unless I'm missing something, that can't be the issue in Delenda Est. There isn't an armor event for the Katana.
Edit: ...until after the corvettes pull out, and that event just sets it to Heavy 100, which is the Karuna default.
There used to be an armor event but I believe it was patched out at one point. (it set them to armor 150 :nervous:)
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I enabled cheats (the exact same thing happened to me the other day without them, so I figured they wouldn't change anything and I'm feeling too lazy to actually do the mission right now), turning on invincibility for myself, Simak, and the Altan Orde. I then proceeded to ram Simak station, (again, didn't do this before; I only got fairly close, but the same thing happened...) And the station literally stuck to me, rotating along my front as I turned (as far as I could tell.) Then, I managed to shake it off, only to have it orbiting around my wake. :confused:
This is the same thing I've witnessed, but orbiting the Altan Orde. Obviously a collision-related bug, but probably not the same one as in Delenda Est, unless for some reason the Karunas are somehow registering as being much larger than they actually are and thwaking each other with their rotators.
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Okay, played the modified DE single mission on Hard. Disarmed all corvette beams before Katana and Altan Orde jumped in, watched the engagement. Took out Carthage slashers and both fusion mortars. Katana did 14 damage to AO and AO did 4 damage to Katana. At this moment AO's hull was at 1%, Katana at around 11-12% and the Deinara was still alive at 15%, Legionary was gone.
I don't know what is causing so much damage, it just doesn't seem possible given all the anti-cap weapons were virtually gone in this playthrough. I did notice the Kyoto hitting AO a few times, but that doesn't account for Katana's damage either.
This is the same thing I've witnessed, but orbiting the Altan Orde. Obviously a collision-related bug, but probably not the same one as in Delenda Est, unless for some reason the Karunas are somehow registering as being much larger than they actually are and thwaking each other with their rotators.
Possible I guess, it's an original idea I'll say! If this was the case though surely this would have happened to Churchill and Indus in Post Meridian?
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For the love of God, please record the "station getting stuck and spinning around you" on video. It sounds hilarious.
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For the love of God, please record the "station getting stuck and spinning around you" on video. It sounds hilarious.
I think there already is one if you dig through the BP forum.
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For the love of God, please record the "station getting stuck and spinning around you" on video. It sounds hilarious.
Is it as hilarious as the picture/comic that was posted years ago of the Colossus basically being a giant bat and hitting a Sathanas a million miles? :D
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It's even more hilarious. It's basically a Karuna doing hula hoops with an Arcadia.
It would be funnier if it didn't break the mission, though.
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Could the insanely rapid destruction of these ships be caused by bugged fusion mortars?
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Based on what yarn found - I'd say that could be very likely:
http://scp.indiegames.us/mantis/view.php?id=2634
I'm at work so I can't check - but could someone else open the table files to see if the fusion mortar has a damage radius by default?
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Based on what yarn found - I'd say that could be very likely:
http://scp.indiegames.us/mantis/view.php?id=2634
I'm at work so I can't check - but could someone else open the table files to see if the fusion mortar has a damage radius by default?
Fusion mortar has a inner radius of 20 and a outer radius of 40. Is this what you mean?
$Name: @Fusion Mortar
$Model File: harbinger.pof
$Mass: 0.1
$Velocity: 100.0
$Fire Wait: 1.0
$Damage: 80 ;; damage applied when within inner radius
$Blast Force: 0.2
$Inner Radius: 20.0 ;; radius at which damage is full (0 for impact only)
$Outer Radius: 40.0 ;; max radius for attenuated damage
$Shockwave Speed: 0 ;; velocity of shockwave. 0 for none.
$Armor Factor: 1.0
$Shield Factor: 1.0
$Subsystem Factor: 1.0
$Lifetime: 20.0
$Energy Consumed: 0.0 ;; Energy used when fired
$Cargo Size: 1.0 ;; Amount of space taken up in weapon cargo
$Homing: NO
$LaunchSnd: 102 ;; The sound it makes when fired
$ImpactSnd: 88 ;; The sound it makes when it hits something
$FlyBySnd: -1
$Rearm Rate: 1.0 ;; number of missiles/sec that are rearmed
$Flags: ("Big Ship" "Huge") ;;
$Trail: ;; Trail cannot be set if Exhaust is set
+Start Width: 0.25 ;; Width of trail nearest missile
+End Width: 0.75 ;; Width of trail before it "evaporates"
+Start Alpha: 1.0
+End Alpha: 0.0
+Max Life: 1.5 ;; how many seconds before trail disappears
+Bitmap: MissileTrail01 ;; Bitmap used to draw trail
$Icon: iconmissile08
$Anim: LoadMissile06
$Impact Explosion: none
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yep - that's the one - thanks. However, it confirms that fusion mortars are not affected by the bug that yarn found. Other missiles in the mission could be affected though - having said that the weapon tables on the wiki (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Weapon_Comparison_(FS2)) seem to indicate that none of them have a zero inner radius (unlike the FS1 (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Weapon_Comparison_%28FS1%29) weapon table - obviously the wiki may not be correct).
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Hello everyone,
Since this problem is pretty weird, I made an experiment with following steps: (It's in 3.6.14_RC5, but since the problem exists in 3.6.12 also, I think there isn't much difference)
1. Play the mission normally until first checkpoint reached, then use cheats in following categories:
a. mark myself invulnerable.
b. Use [~ + shift + K] to destroy all turrets(press "select next live turret" and hold down the keys until all turrets destroyed) on all hostile ships except Carthage.
c. Remove the green beams at the bow and stern of Carthage. (Didn't remove the central one because it's used in mission events)
2. Do nothing and see whats going on.
After Katana and Altan Orde jumped in, both ships sustained at 100% hull for few seconds.
Then, both of their hull starts to decrease in a very slow speed (1% per 4~5seconds).
Their names on the escort list didn't blink, and no one attacking them. (Checked by pressing "target nearest attacker")
Sometimes, both of them stop decreasing their hull for few seconds, then the hulls start to decrease again.
Till the arrival of Imperieuse, Katana has 58% hull remain, while Altan Orde has 62%.
Perhaps someone could repeat this experiment and see if they get the same result ?
It may suggest this strange bug is not related to enemy weapons. Also, I don't think it's collision damage, because if two ships collide, their names on escort list will blink.
(I know the names on escort list won't blink if damage is done through SEXP(sabotage subsystem, hull), but there's no such commands in the mission file)
P.S. Sorry for bothering you guys with this strange problem. The plot and battle scenario of the mission are really enjoyable. If this seems too bizarre to you, please just leave it, save your time on WiH p2 :)
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No, this is absolutely worth paying attention to and fixing, and you are amazing for doing it. It seriously sounds like the mission script is somehow sabotaging their hulls.
e: Could it be the new Karuna models doing it somehow? A gun that fires into the hull?
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Played through twice last night. First time, edited the file to beam-lock and turret-lock all GTVA warships. Altan Orde went to 97, Katana went to 84, by the time the Imperieuse arrived.
Second time, left above modifications in place and also turret-locked the Altan Orde and Katana. Altan Orde went to 63, Katana to 54.
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Played through twice last night. First time, edited the file to beam-lock and turret-lock all GTVA warships. Altan Orde went to 97, Katana went to 84, by the time the Imperieuse arrived.
Second time, left above modifications in place and also turret-locked the Altan Orde and Katana. Altan Orde went to 63, Katana to 54.
what the
Were the GTVA fighters doing this?
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GTVA fighters were all dead by the time the AO and Katana showed up. Their names didn't flash on the escort list while taking damage.
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Could it be, that a fighter got lodged into the model and thus is constantly colliding with the Frigate? Usually that wouldn't be a problem since fighters don't survive that for long, but if it's an invincible fighter....
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GTVA fighters were all dead by the time the AO and Katana showed up. Their names didn't flash on the escort list while taking damage.
So...the ships took MORE damage with their own turrets locked?
Maybe repeat this a few times and do science?
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:wtf: This is one incredible bug...
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So, I've been getting some errors on startup. I haven't noticed them causing any gameplay issues, but I thought just to be safe I'd delete blueplanet and blueplanet2 completely and re-download. I emphasize: fresh installation. After doing that, I opened up Delenda Est (original file, not my modified one; I stupidly deleted it with everything else, but remaking it shouldn't take long) and decided to see if we still have karunas blowing each other up.
Unfortunately I couldn't get to that part of the mission, because apparently this has started happening since the time of my previous download:
(http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/3156/bombs1.jpg)
(http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/7688/bombs2z.jpg)
Anybody else getting Macross in their WiH?
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THE UBERBOMBERS RETURN
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This bug appears to be pretty ancient, actually...
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=70050.0
Though thanks for posting that... I've always wanted to see that kind of insane unbalanced annihilation XD
And... I just got ninja'd by General Battuta himself. Nevermind =p
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Artillery inbound!
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THE UBERBOMBERS RETURN
Long time no see^^
THe Tevs should restart sending them, the war would be over in...oh wait...
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oh god not again
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This has probably been answered earlier in this topic, but has anyone checked which release candidate started having these problems? I'm not sure if RC1 is fully compatible with current BP releases, but RC2 at least is. Could someone playtest Delenda Est using RC2, 3 and 4 as well?
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Not again. This bug really got on my nerves when testing stuff for various mods I'm involved in.
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I had the same Problem - after ten attempts or so i made her survive.
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So, I cheat tested this mission a little bit, and I found that if only the Carthage was left, there would be no damage done to either the AO or Katana.
I know we were really distracted with a lot of different bugs, including the uberbombers, but looking through the mission myself, the likeliest cause of the Katana dying really fast is the fact that it's on Heavy Armor 100 the entire mission.
Is there a specific balance reason why this was done before? As things stand, balance is broken, and it would probably make the mission less grueling to add Heavy Armor 80 to the Katana right after it jumps in. Although I haven't tried it yet, and I'm about to.
Also, on an unrelated note. After closing and loading Freespace again, the Indus refused to take on its hull strength from the checkpoint data, strangely. May just be my computer acting up.
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Oh brother. (http://fi.somethingawful.com/images/smilies/negativeman-55f.png)
We need to figure out whether this is a FRED bug or an AI bug in line with recent reports. This is a big deal.
This may or may not have something to do with why I could not beat Delenda Est (on Easy, no less) after around 40 attempts--including one instance in which I used cheats, and was rewarded by having the Imperiuse singling me out to snipe with one of its forward beam cannons from something like 6km away, instead of the Indus or Yangtze (or the other UEF ships; can't remember if they were still alive by that point). And here I was, thinking it impossible for a capital ship to target a fighter with its big beam cannons, no matter what, let alone under the circumstances. I think I was even "invincible" at the time, just to make it all the more insane.
Particularly of note was now either the Katana or Altan Orde would go down so quickly to a few cruisers that couldn't even effectively use their weapons, and had no fighter cover whatsoever (while our entire fighter force was still alive and kicking). Seeing this thread, I now wonder if it was at least partially due to the fact that these ships take way more damage than they should be, even potentially from friendly fire.
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Not sure about the weird beam behavior, but the mission is pretty much impossible on all difficulties exactly because the Katana and Altan Orde die no matter how leet you are at flying.
Then again, QD beat it, but he's also something of an FS dogfighter god.
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I can't believe I haven't fixed this yet :(
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Alright, gave Delenda Est a couple of runs in the pre and post update versions, and yeah, it's much easier pre-update. Post-update, I have difficulty not losing the Indus in the opening shots between it and the first two Deimoses. Also, uberbombers launching torpedoes every two seconds or so. Then there's the Katana being made of nitroglycerin and old Soviet nuclear reactors. Had to make the frigates invulnerable to actually finish.
Pre-update, the Indus comes through with around 30% health left (because I suck). The biggest concern there is not losing the Katana to the Iolanthe and Deanira's beams. Also, the Carthage's slashers don't fire at all, while they do post-update.
Everything after the Imperieuse arriving happens pretty much the same way, with the possible exception of the uberbombers (though the Boanerges is so pathetic I find myself thinking that's a good way of making it a credible threat).
Also, I have no idea what the hell the Carthage was doing.
(http://i.imgur.com/epsYwl.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/epsYw.jpg)
(pre-update)
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Exciting! Progress?.... Something changed apparently. :yes:
EDIT: Also, you mean that the update is the BP update and not a new executable right?
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Not sure about the weird beam behavior, but the mission is pretty much impossible on all difficulties exactly because the Katana and Altan Orde die no matter how leet you are at flying.
Then again, QD beat it, but he's also something of an FS dogfighter god.
...I REALLY wish I knew this when attempting the mission a little while back. Would have saved me an infinite amount of frustration, and made the whole finale and ending of WiH-P1 SO much more enjoyable for me.
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You know, it just occurred to me that when the WiH update was released, a number of people noted the Akula rarely surviving its initial Deimos duel, despite, if memory serves, the roulette event being untouched. Think it could be related?
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Yeah. That really was a shame. Perhaps my best freespace memory of all time was Delenda Este and Sunglare at first release. Especially since I beat Delenda Este in one shot (by the skin of my teeth), which flows decidedly better than failing it 20 times in a row and skipping the mission.
(The one thing I've noticed regarding the new upgraded Karuna is that the model is actually mis-aligned with its higher LODs. Not sure if this could have balance ramificataions though)
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Not sure about the weird beam behavior, but the mission is pretty much impossible on all difficulties exactly because the Katana and Altan Orde die no matter how leet you are at flying.
Then again, QD beat it, but he's also something of an FS dogfighter god.
...I REALLY wish I knew this when attempting the mission a little while back. Would have saved me an infinite amount of frustration, and made the whole finale and ending of WiH-P1 SO much more enjoyable for me.
You're not the only one. My old Sidewinder got a bit of unnecessary abuse after I'm going "what the hell is going on" for nine times. Even lowering the difficulty on Very Easy didn't help. Anything with the later .14 RCs just makes it too bittersweet and forces you to work a bit too hard to earn an ending (the emotion I get is even more frustrating than playing an old console/arcade game with limited lives).
Even the Indus and Yangtze got one hell of a beating (16% and 34% respectively on Easy) when the first two GTVA corvettes made their runs. They may have regenerating AP (and I had to help with a Scalpel and Paveways), but it didn't matter jack squat compared to the Altan Orde and Katana. Even with the two prioritized targets down (split the work between myself and Beta), the Carthage or Systema ends up scoring a kill.
Just so I can probably avoid shooting myself in the kneecap... what was the last RC that made this mission not as painful as it currently is?
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i think they all do is the problem.
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This is why it's a bad idea to release an update that only works on dev builds.
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In the mean time, I recall Ant8 working find with Delenda..
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(The one thing I've noticed regarding the new upgraded Karuna is that the model is actually mis-aligned with its higher LODs. Not sure if this could have balance ramificataions though)
It's a known problem that shouldn't have any effect on gameplay except looking weird.
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Wouldn't it make some turrets misaligned, possibly making them fire into the hull? Or does the game not factor in LOD geometry when calculating hits?
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In the mean time, I recall Ant8 working find with Delenda..
So wait. So far we know/guess the following, right?
1. Original WiH release works fine with all builds to date, except Carthage flies backwards.
2. New WiH release breaks on most recent releases.
3. New WiH release works on Ant8.
So something in the new builds beyond Ant8 AND something in the new release are coming together and causing the problem?
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lolwtf
Possibly a good next step would be copying the new Karuna into the old version and vice versa. If new Delenda Est becomes playable with the old Karuna, we know where the problem is. If any events in Delenda Est reference the rotator subsystem they'd have to be edited, but as far as I know the Karuna is otherwise a drop-in replacement.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bOKVguQpaY&feature=related
Hahahah. I dug up this video, and lol'd as an almost perfect play has the Katana drop down to 20% anyways. It's fast too, goes randomly from 100% to 25% for no reason in a few seconds. QD has killed all beams, all AAA, and most of the flak, and the Katana still plummets.
Also, I had no idea grimmlers were viable turret killers. I also never knew that you could get AI to evade by throwing unlocked aspect missiles at them to distract them. I also had no idea a simple climb and roll was so effective for evading. And pro slammer skills are impressive. I should probably watch more of QD's vids. (Except holy crap so much bloom. My eyesss)
Edit: Wait. The Katana starts to drop in HP about 1% per second at around 11:30-12:30, which is also when it gets in range of the Leviathan's fusion mortar. In fact, at 12:34, you can see that the only thing shooting the Katana is the fusion mortar on the leviathan. In fact, if you look closely, you can see that each missile actually does damage equal to 1% of the Katana's health. In fact I think we might have found our problem. In fact I will stop using in fact to start my sentences now, in fact.
Looking at the wiki, the fusion mortar is supposed to do 80 damage. The Karuna has 85k HP. For the fusion mortar to hit for >1% every missile (occasionally the missiles hit for 2% damage for rounding, presumably), each missile must be doing >850 damage. So now we need to look for bugs that are giving this dumbfire an extra order of magnitude of firepower.
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...
Looking at the wiki, the fusion mortar is supposed to do 80 damage. The Karuna has 85k HP. For the fusion mortar to hit for >1% every missile (occasionally the missiles hit for 2% damage for rounding, presumably), each missile must be doing >850 damage. So now we need to look for bugs that are giving this dumbfire an extra order of magnitude of firepower.
Could this be something to do with armor.tbl? I think I remember seeing earlier in the thread that it was changed between updates.
Edit: Or rather how Heavy Armor treats FM damage.
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didn't i read something about some other missiles doing double damage on the new build? because of a damage radius or blahblah somethingidontunderstand? related?
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didn't i read something about some other missiles doing double damage on the new build? because of a damage radius or blahblah somethingidontunderstand? related?
The bug you're thinking of only affected missiles without an area of effect - the fusion mortar has an area of effect and isn't affected by the bug.
http://scp.indiegames.us/mantis/view.php?id=2634
There is also this resolved bug which relates to armour / damage calculations? Can anyone give DE a test with a build bsaed on SVN 8781?
http://scp.indiegames.us/mantis/view.php?id=2647
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Mm, definitely doesn't seem to be fusion mortars. Ran a test and they seem to work as intended. Ran a test and they take their sweet time killing a Karuna even without the warheads getting caught by Apocalypse blasts.
I noticed in the DE events that the Altan Orde has a set Heavy Armor 80 event and the Katana doesn't, for what it's worth.
I've got some time on my hands, so I might start messing with the mission to see if I can pin the problem on a specific ship.
edit: I just noticed that the log lists the kills as less-than-100, which they should be, since the mission was set so that only the paired Levi was attacking each Karuna. Don't think it's related, but I'm guessing this is a bug with the log not properly accounting for armor modifiers, which makes debugging harder.
[attachment deleted by ninja]
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Mm, definitely doesn't seem to be fusion mortars. Ran a test and they seem to work as intended. Ran a test and they take their sweet time killing a Karuna even without the warheads getting caught by Apocalypse blasts.
O.o
Fusion mortars are dumbfires and cannot be shot down. Actually, I'm pretty sure bombs can't be blown up by shockwaves anyway.
Quick question regarding your testing: Logs suggest that 6 leviathans killed 6 karunas in 30 minutes of mission time. Were they using all their turrets? (For reference, I believe it takes an unbugged fusion mortar ~17 minutes to kill 1 karuna, assuming one missile a second and no armor table changes)
If you had the leviathans paired to Karunas, I think 5 minutes for a kill is a little fast.
(I'm also fairly convinced that it probably is the fusion mortars, so it'd be ideal if someone could do a test in Delenda Est where the fusion mortars start out destroyed or something.)
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One Levi per Karuna, using only its Fusion Mortar, on RC5. Used time compression after the destruction of Heavy Armor 60. It was actually 7-on-7, but at 30 minutes the Heavy Armor 5 Karuna was still at 78% so I didn't bother waiting.
Mission attached. For strict reproduction purposes, you'll have to edit it to lock the Karuna turrets again.
(As far as I'm aware, bomb shockwaves do destroy bombs. Happens to me all the time when intercepting. As far as fusion mortars go, I'm pretty sure I noticed occasional breaks in fire when Apocalypse warheads hit the turret, though it could have just been the turret acquiring a new target.)
In any case, I've stripped the secondaries from GTVA strikecraft to rule out uberbomber weirdness and I'll probably get around to defanging the DE Levis soon anyway.
e: I just checked again and Karuna warheads do clearly and observably destroy fusion mortars.
[attachment deleted by a ninja]
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That is totally weird. Fusion mortars don't have a bomb flag and therefore shouldn't be any more destroyable than a harpoon or something. I'm wondering if bombs smacking the leviathan somehow interrupt/stun the missile launcher.
(As far as I'm aware, bomb shockwaves do destroy bombs. Happens to me all the time when intercepting. As far as fusion mortars go, I'm pretty sure I noticed occasional breaks in fire when Apocalypse warheads hit the turret, though it could have just been the turret acquiring a new target.)
This has never happened to me. Otherwise, artemis bombers of death would be hilariously easy to intercept, as blowing up one warhead would detonate the other 31 warheads that are right beside it. Or at least, the radius of effect is so small that I've never noticed it. I only know for sure that flak is very bad at intercepting bombs since the flak shockwave is incapable of damaging bombs. I assumed the same principle applied to all other shockwave types such as ship explosions or bomb explosions.
Could someone tell me how the Heavy Armor classes work? (Is Heavy Armor 100 = ship takes default damage against weapons labeled as heavy? Heavy armor 60 = ship takes 60% damage against heavy weapons?) If my understanding is correct, then I think fusion mortars are doing around 4x more damage than they should be, but definitely not more than 10x.
Last thing: Key bit of information I forgot to add: What difficulty did you run the test mission on? Insane is the only difficulty in which weapons hit for 100% their marked value.
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Maybe the fusion mortars are just getting destroyed because they're entering the detonation radius of incoming Apocalypses and registering a collision. I dunno.
Tested with no enemy strike craft secondaries, Katana died as the Deianira/Iolanthe withdrew, Altan Orde at 30%. Tested again with the Deianira/Iolanthe disarmed except for their TerSlashes, Katana survived at 30% and Altan Orde at 60%. Watched incoming fire and there were never even any fusion mortars pointed at the frigates.
(There were a few odd bugs later on, like the Carthage making a brief collision-esque jerk and some of the frigates failing to send their pre-destruction dialogue, but it isn't a priority.)
e: tested fusion mortars on very easy. I believe the damage reduction only applies to the player, otherwise you'd run into all sorts of problems with things not blowing up when they're supposed to.
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Wait, so the Katana and Altan Orde survive with tons of health left despite all enemy beams being intact?
wut
So nonbeam turrets actually are causing the majority of the DPS? In every run I've played, I usually disarm all the Terslashes well before they get a chance to fire, and I still lose the Katana. Mind, I didn't remove the bomb loadouts from all the bombers leading up to that point in the mission.
e: tested fusion mortars on very easy. I believe the damage reduction only applies to the player, otherwise you'd run into all sorts of problems with things not blowing up when they're supposed to.
I know for a fact that certain missions are easier or harder in retail because beams (as a whole) are doing more or less damage based on difficulty. I can't remember if this is because lower difficulties cap the number of turrets that can fire simultaneously or if actual damage values are played with. I might be wrong about actual numercial values changing though. The mission I'm thinking about is the one where you're field testing pegasus fighters, but then have to escort the Hecate past a Moloch. In lower difficulties, the Moloch will pretty much refuse to die because the Hecate's DPS isn't high enough. Here: the quote from the wiki is as follows
"On lower difficulty settings, the Aquitaine won't do enough damage to the Moloch to destroy it. The solution to this problem is to play this mission on Medium difficulty or higher. On the other hand, the Oberon is extremely difficult to defend on Hard or Insane difficulty. "
However, I have no idea whether this information is reliable at all. Come to think of it, I think in Feint! Parry! Riposte! the Colossus reliably destroys the Orion before their dialogue starts on insane. I haven't played that mission on lower difficulties in a long time, so I can't say if it's because the Colossus brings more beams to bear or if the beams themselves do more damage.
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None of that stuff about difficulty in retail applies to BP because in BP we removed the damage scaling to non-players by difficulty, I'm pretty sure.
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The bombers shouldn't be the issue anyway since there aren't any left by the time the Katana and AO jump in. If there were, you'd have lost the Indus to Maxim fire (which I'm noting has no trouble dropping it to 30-40% even without bombs).
Going off the tables, Heavy Armor 150 takes 150% damage and so on, so a Fusion Mortar should be doing 120 per second, which means that it should take... 11 minutes? Wow, okay, there's definitely something wrong here. Could the karuna be taking damage from both the fusion mortar and its blast? I don't think it's the main problem, but unless there's some weird flag buried in the tables somewhere it shouldn't be happening.
I'll do one more run tonight to see how the main beams on the other ships are contributing, but there's definitely a weapon or armor bug.
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I think it's a step in the right direction, but like you mentioned, it's probably not just fusion mortars. Your last DE run didn't even put the Karunas in range of the missiles.
Anyways, look forward to more of your test results :yes:
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Wow, okay. With the TerSlashes on the Carthage and the SGreens on the Leviathans and Aeoluses off, in addition to the stuff with the Iolanthe and Deianira, the Altan Orde survived with 58% and the Katana with... 77%. Apparently those beams make a huge difference.
Aesaar, can you upload the old bp2-core.vp somewhere? I want to compare the mission files and see exactly what changes were made in the patch.
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Going off the tables, Heavy Armor 150 takes 150% damage and so on, so a Fusion Mortar should be doing 120 per second, which means that it should take... 11 minutes? Wow, okay, there's definitely something wrong here. Could the karuna be taking damage from both the fusion mortar and its blast? I don't think it's the main problem, but unless there's some weird flag buried in the tables somewhere it shouldn't be happening.
Targets impacted by missiles take damage from both the impact and the shockwave - vs Heavy Armour 150 the Fusion Mortar should do (80 impact + 80 shockwave) x 1.5 = 240 dps, taking approx 6 minutes to destroy the Karuna w/ 85k hp?
Here's a copy of the fusion mortar table entry (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=80146.msg1596405#msg1596405), which confirms that the wiki damage value is not really correct, any weapon with a shockwave radius really deals twice the tabled damage. That was the essence of the bug previously mentioned, missiles without a shockwave radius were given a shockwave radius of 0.1 which effectively doubled their damage.
edit: for clarity
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Going off the tables, Heavy Armor 150 takes 150% damage and so on, so a Fusion Mortar should be doing 120 per second, which means that it should take... 11 minutes? Wow, okay, there's definitely something wrong here. Could the karuna be taking damage from both the fusion mortar and its blast? I don't think it's the main problem, but unless there's some weird flag buried in the tables somewhere it shouldn't be happening.
Targets impacted by missiles take damage from both the impact and the shockwave - vs Heavy Armour 150 the Fusion Mortar should do (80 impact + 80 shockwave) x 1.5 = 240 dps, taking approx 6 minutes to destroy the Karuna w/ 85k hp?
Here's a copy of the fusion mortar table entry (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=80146.msg1596405#msg1596405), which confirms that the wiki damage value is not really correct, any weapon with a shockwave radius really deals twice the tabled damage. That was the essence of the bug previously mentioned, missiles without a shockwave radius were given a shockwave radius of 0.1 which effectively doubled their damage.
edit: for clarity
I see, so it's working more or less correctly. Thanks for the clarification.
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Pre-update bp2-core.vp (http://www.mediafire.com/?dyajjeafsuu8isu) for those who want it. I'd upload the whole thing, but I'm pretty sure a 1.25GB download is beyond a free Mediafire account.
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The whole thing isn't needed, core contains all the mission files and tables. Thanks, I'll dig into it tomorrow.
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Note that a couple of model names, most notably the Karuna, have changed since the update though.
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Dunno if self-damaging karunas are still the case, but I think I might have something. Needs further investigation, though[will take care of it]. I saw such a weird thing. I experienced lots of lags [dunno why, but ok], and this is what I noticed. This is no muzzle flash. Could this be... self damaging with a splash flak?
To be clear, it appears on every three barreled guns on shorter barrel.
[attachment deleted by ninja]
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I haven't had any luck isolating everything, but the old mission file (edited to accommodate for the Karuna model changes) runs precisely as it used to on RC5, no uberbombers or failure screens in sight. I'm attaching it for others to confirm, and as a hotfix until we figure out exactly what changed.
The Katana and Altan Orde did still weirdly lose health after the Imperiuse arrived, which might be a weird collision problem with the Carthage.
Digging through the file itself, it seems that all of the Carthage's turrets have been set to BP2-General (prepatch they were FS2-Captain) which could be contributing the the Katana's problems. I also feel like the Wargods frigates were firing a lot more missiles prepatch, so they might be getting disarmed somehow. Haven't managed to figure out where the bombers' crack dealer is yet.
[attachment deleted by ninja]
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Turret AI should change literally nothing in the game, I don't think it's referenced at all in the code.
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That's what I thought, too, which is why I found it weird that it was changed.
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Turret AI should change literally nothing in the game, I don't think it's referenced at all in the code.
Because AI profiles that are not referenced anywhere have never caused problems in Delenda Est before. :p
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In any case, it's easy enough to test. I'm more worried that there's a SEXP bug somewhere that's making uberturrets as well as uberbombers.
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I added a debug statement to the RC6 code, then played Delenda Est on Very Easy until the Katana was destroyed (just after the Imperieuse arrived but before it opened fire, so mission failed). For a quick explanation I'm logging:
1) the ship taking damage
2) how much damage was applied to the ship (after all other calculations are complete, e.g. armour mods / subsystem damage / etc)
3) what weapon did the damage
Index: code/ship/shiphit.cpp
===================================================================
--- code/ship/shiphit.cpp (revision 8748)
+++ code/ship/shiphit.cpp (working copy)
@@ -2141,6 +2141,8 @@ static void ship_do_damage(object *ship_obj, object *other_obj, vec3d *hitpos, f
}
}
ship_obj->hull_strength -= damage;
+ // check who is causing what damage & to whom
+ mprintf(("Damage: A took B from C:i%s,%f,%s\n",shipp->ship_name,damage,Weapon_info[weapon_info_index].name));
}
// let damage gauge know that player ship just took damage
This needs some refinement as the 3rd field doesn't capture stuff like the beam names, collision "names", etc, despite that this has showed some interesting data.
$ grep Damage fs2_open.log | grep Katana | cut -d',' -f 2 | awk '{ sum+=$1} END {print sum}'
85266.8
grep Damage fs2_open.log | grep Katana | grep Apocalypse | cut -d',' -f 2 | awk '{ sum+=$1} END {print sum}'
42302.1
The Katana takes approximately half its damage (42k out of 85k) from Apocalypse torpedoes. :wtf:
That doesn't seem right, maybe its own torps are hitting itself, or perhaps someone else is firing into the Katana? I'm going to see if I can find how to reference who launched these torpedoes but it'll be probably 4-5 hours before I can look at this again, so I'm just throwing this out there in case someone else wants to dig further in the meantime.
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Does the game factor in LOD geometry when checking whether or not a weapon hits? If it does, then torpedoes launched from turret36 (second launcher on top, closest to the conning tower) are hitting the conning tower. This is because LOD1-3 are all 60m or so further forward than LOD0 (and the turrets) are. The LODs are offset in PCS2 to resolve this, but it obviously doesn't keep. If you remove that offset, the LODs look misaligned like they are ingame.
I'm going to try Delenda Est with the old Karuna model, see if that solves the problem.
EDIT: It did. Tried Delenda Est, and apart from the 20 to 4 FPS, it played just fine (well, as well as it can at that FPS). There was a marked increase in the survival rate of the Indus and Katana. Tried Collateral Damage, and the Akula made it with a good 30% health left (before SSMs), whereas before it almost always died. The problem is almost certainly with KarunaMk1.pof.
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Makes sense. I'll play with the detail distances to confirm after some sleep, provided you haven't done it yourself by then.
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Could you try again with this Karuna model: http://blueplanet.fsmods.net/E/KarunaMk1.7z
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ahahahaha
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I've done some testing with the Karuna linked by The E, in Collateral Damage (it's faster to test with than Delenda Est :)) it seems to have made a fairly big difference, the Akula took ~9k self Apocalypse damage with the new model, and ~28k with the old model.
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Can you also check this vs. the old old model? How much Apocalypse self-damage does it deal?
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Sounds like this is a good day. :D
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Nice. Aside from properly centering the LODs, what else was changed in the Karuna a few posts up?
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The_E didn't mention anything else
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Well, I did fix the texture assignment for the extra greebles on the engine block on lod0 so that it looks as intended.
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Oh I gotta catch that for HWBP, always bothered me.
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Y'all should change the tech room description
... It would not be an exaggeration to suggest that the Apocalypse is the single greatest reason why the Federation fleet has not yet been shattered. GTVA UEF warship commanders and fighter pilots have struggled to effectively screen their own ships from incoming outgoing Apocalypse flights...
:D
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Did some testing. Ain't a LOD problem. Torpedoes from turret36 go right through the misaligned LOD1+ tower.
(Engaging a locked Deimos directly above it at ~900m, $Detail distance: (0, 10, 30000, 30000))
Karuna still takes 7% self-damage though, persisting at all LODs even with The_E's fix. Only occurs in combat. Can't figure out exactly where it's coming from--doesn't even cause impact or damage spew and I ramped it up to big-circular-anime-explosion levels to check.
I suppose the next thing is to start systematically disabling turrets to isolate the problem... ugh.
e: looks like it's just splash from Apocalypse explosions. Apparently the radius is much, much bigger than they look, on the order of 1km or so. Probably best to be careful with those broadsides.
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Don't missiles not have collision detection with the ship that they are fired from anyways?
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I've been killed by my own slammers quite enough times, though maybe submunitions don't count.
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Can you also check this vs. the old old model? How much Apocalypse self-damage does it deal?
With an pre-update version of blueplanet2 (d/l July 2011) & blueplanet (d/l April 2011) the Akula does approx 4k Apocalypse self-damage. In this case, the majority of damage received is not in 500 hp "blocks", which could imply that it's mostly shockwave damage, somewhere between the inner & outer radius of the Apocalypse (i.e. 100-200 away). If my understanding of the code is correct, it could also be damage that hits & destroys subsystems 1st, then carries over into the hull.
With both newer models, nearly all the damage is done in 500 hp blocks. From checking the frame at which each bit of damage is being done it would appear that this is all shockwave damage (as suggestd by qwadtep), reason being that missiles that hit their target do their normal damage and their shockwave damage in the same frame, whereas all the damage in these cases is from different frames.
So in summary, the Akula Apocalypse self damage tally is:
Old Old model: ~4k - NOT in 500 hp blocks
Old model: ~28k - in 500 hp blocks (in my testing this one has always died prior to the SSM strike)
Latest model: ~10k - in 500 hp blocks
I guess that disabling turrets as suggested by qwadtep is a reasonable next step. It's also be useful to know if the subsystem boxes changed at all between the different models. Also, the old old models didn't have any LODs, would the different LODs affect the sizes / placement of subsystems? (I don't know enough about modeling...)
And for those interested, here's some extracts of the data from my fs2_open.logs (note the 4th field is the missile firer and the 5th field is the current frame):
Old Old Model
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,75.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,213
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,75.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,1276
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,11.925433,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,1791
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,41.464760,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,1804
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,60.163673,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,1893
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,98.429138,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,1902
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,72.956680,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,1980
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,194.390427,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,2007
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,169.995316,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,2013
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,257.443848,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,2080
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,2754
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,287.681305,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,2821
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,75.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,2892
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,273.680786,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,2892
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,2894
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,263.525421,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,2950
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,97.142441,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,3014
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,242.552902,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,3085
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,175.388931,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,3106
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,0.456339,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,3188
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,104.748085,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,3219
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,12.895197,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,3220
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,75.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,3646
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,75.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4865
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,75.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,5172
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,75.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,8512
Old Model
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,75.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,134
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,598
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,692
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,704
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,772
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,774
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,848
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,944
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,1711
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,1740
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,1829
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,1839
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,1895
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,1948
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,2017
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,2036
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,2749
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,2816
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,2817
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,2858
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,2918
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,2957
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,2989
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,3044
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,3065
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,3121
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,3237
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,3871
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,3950
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,3967
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4044
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4051
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4123
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4126
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4177
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4248
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4322
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4432
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4576
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4943
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,5073
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,5083
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,5149
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,5239
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,5373
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,5455
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,5504
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,5582
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,5643
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,5777
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,75.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,6002
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,6525
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,6588
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,6714
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,6730
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,6740
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,6846
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,6926
Latest Model
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,75.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,294
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,75.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,2842
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,75.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,3092
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,75.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4321
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,75.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,6185
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,75.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,6405
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,75.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,7532
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,75.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,7736
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,7823
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,7983
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,8129
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,8229
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,8293
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,8476
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,75.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,8551
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,8563
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,8606
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,8752
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,8764
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,8893
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,9003
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,9012
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,9133
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,9257
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,9268
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,9407
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,9419
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,9534
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,9699
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,9720
And just for a reference, here's the damage taken by the Regensburg from the Akula from the same test as the Old Old model. You can see that the majority of the damage has 400 (impact reduced by armor) & 500 (shockwaves not affected by the armor) hp blocks done in the same frame.
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,564
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,586
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,586
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,638
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,638
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,666
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,666
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,714
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,714
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,832
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,832
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,1522
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,1522
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,1650
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,1650
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,1691
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,1691
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,1707
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,1707
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,1737
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,1737
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,1795
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,1795
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,1810
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,1810
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,1887
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,1887
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,1928
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,1928
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,1931
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,1931
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,2007
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,2007
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,2710
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,2710
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,25.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,2755
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,2755
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,2827
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,2827
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,2856
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,2856
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,25.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,2883
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,2883
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,2924
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,2924
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,25.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,3008
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,3008
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,3023
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,3023
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,3071
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,3071
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,3111
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,3111
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,3128
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,3128
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,3845
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,3845
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,3917
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,3917
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,3968
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,3968
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4054
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4054
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4062
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4062
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4145
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4164
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4164
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4218
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4218
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4224
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4224
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4262
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4262
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4385
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4385
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4976
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4976
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,5103
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,5103
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,5205
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,5205
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,5340
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,5340
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,5347
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,5347
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,5507
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,5507
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,5635
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,5635
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,6569
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,6569
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,6802
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,6802
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,6874
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,6874
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,7037
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,7037
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,11674
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,11674
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,11726
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,11726
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,11740
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,11740
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,11780
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,11780
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,11812
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,11812
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,11816
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,11816
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,11840
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,11840
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,11892
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,11892
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,11892
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,11905
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,11961
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,11961
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,11999
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,11999
e: Yes, this is really getting towards tl;dr but I thought this was also very interesting. With the Latest Model, the Akula is taking its 500 hp of damage in the same frame that the Regensburg is, e.g. see frame 9699, impact to Regensburg, shockwave to Akula & Regensburg. Does this imply that the ships are very close, or are occupying the same space?
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,75.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,294
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,100.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,585
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,719
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,719
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,802
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,802
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,1671
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,1671
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,1822
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,1822
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,1828
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,1828
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,1852
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,1852
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,1904
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,1904
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,1908
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,1908
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,1957
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,1957
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,1981
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,1981
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,2007
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,2007
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,2039
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,2039
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,2071
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,2071
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,2125
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,2125
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,75.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,2842
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,2906
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,2906
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,2988
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,2988
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,3053
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,3053
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,75.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,3092
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,3093
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,3093
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,3154
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,3154
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,3166
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,3166
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,3221
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,3221
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,3271
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,3271
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,3275
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,3275
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,3421
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,3421
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4095
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4095
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4180
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4180
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4291
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4291
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4312
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4312
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,75.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4321
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4358
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4358
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4399
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4399
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4462
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4462
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4510
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4510
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4589
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4589
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4627
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4627
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4717
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,4717
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,5636
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,5636
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,5781
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,5781
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,5893
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,5893
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,5947
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,5947
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,75.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,6185
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,75.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,6405
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,75.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,7532
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,75.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,7736
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,7823
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,7823
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,7823
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,7983
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,7983
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,7983
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,8129
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,8129
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,8229
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,8229
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,8229
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,8293
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,8293
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,8476
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,8476
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,8476
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,75.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,8551
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,66.651421,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,8551
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,8563
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,8563
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,8563
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,8606
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,8606
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,8606
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,8752
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,8752
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,8752
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,8764
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,8764
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,8764
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,8893
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,8893
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,8893
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,9003
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,9003
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,9003
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,9012
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,9012
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,9012
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,9133
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,9133
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,9133
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,9257
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,9257
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,9257
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,9268
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,9268
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,9407
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,9407
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,9407
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,9419
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,9419
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,9419
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,9534
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,9534
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,9534
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,9699
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,9699
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,9699
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Akula,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,9720
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,9720
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,400.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,11498
Damage: A took B from C fired by D - Frame E:Regensburg,500.000000,Apocalypse#Karuna,Akula,11498
-
I guess that disabling turrets as suggested by qwadtep is a reasonable next step. It's also be useful to know if the subsystem boxes changed at all between the different models. Also, the old old models didn't have any LODs, would the different LODs affect the sizes / placement of subsystems? (I don't know enough about modeling...)
There doesn't seem to be any problem with the turrets themselves. Rather, the shockwave effect seems much larger than it should be--somewhere between 750 and 1000m to fully attenuate. So when you these close-range engagements with Karunas, they end up caught in their own fire pocket. Naturally, if you have multiple Karunas saturating the area like in Delenda Est, it adds up really fast.
LODs don't affect subsystem geometry and collisions are still detected according to LOD0.
-
The thing is, in all those tests, it's the same Apocalypse#Karuna used everywhere, right ? Only the Karuna model changes. There should be no reason the same weapon with the same shockwave at the same distance deals more damage to one model rather than another.
-
Yeah, I've just checked the table entries for the Apocalypse#Karuna in bp-wep.tbm and bp2-wep.tbm for both the old & new mod versions and there's no differences. And I used the same exec for all the testing which would suggest that it's not a code problem (although I'm not ruling it out yet, there could be a new code path being followed due to the new model). It could be that there was some random variation when testing with the old old model, so I'll give that another go at some point to check. After that I'll see if I can figure out how to calculate the distance between the ships when the torps hit, that should show if the shockwaves are behaving correctly or not.
-
I've been killed by my own slammers quite enough times, though maybe submunitions don't count.
I think this is for collisions for whether the missile blows up or not. Missile shockwaves still hurt like hell. I've killed myself with my own tempests plenty of times.
-
I've been killed by my own slammers quite enough times, though maybe submunitions don't count.
I think this is for collisions for whether the missile blows up or not. Missile shockwaves still hurt like hell. I've killed myself with my own tempests plenty of times.
Dumbfires are how I skip missions with five failures quickly.
-
I've done some more testing with my debug code logging the distance between the firing and fired on ship and it looks like qwadtep is right. The shockwaves seem to be doing full damage out to approx 1000 metres, in the new BP2 the Regensburg seems to be getting closer to the Akula than it does in the old BP2 which accounts for the difference in damage from my previous tests. That's approx 450m at closest recorded approach vs approx 1000m (note: distance calculations done by vm_vec_dist_quick which isn't 100% accurate - and also it'll be the distance between the "centre points" of the ships, not the closest hull sections). Anyway, it looks like a possible shockwave code bug which needs more investigation...
qwadtep - do you mind posting your test mission for me to investigate with? i.e.
(Engaging a locked Deimos directly above it at ~900m, $Detail distance: (0, 10, 30000, 30000))
-
Yeah, those ranges sound all kinds of wrong. The max range for Apocalypse#Karuna shockwaves is supposed to be 200m.
-
qwadtep - do you mind posting your test mission for me to investigate with? i.e.
(Engaging a locked Deimos directly above it at ~900m, $Detail distance: (0, 10, 30000, 30000))
Gladly.
[attachment deleted by a ninja]
-
Thanks :)
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I've checked the test mission with the old BP2 and found that the Apocalypse shockwaves have the same effect, i.e. they damage the firing ship up to distances around 1000m. From looking at the code, it seems that shockwave damage attenuation calculation uses a sphere centered on the target object (i.e. Karuna) which is compared to the distance from the origin of the shockwave. The size of the target-object-sphere is the objects radius, which I believe (but haven't confirmed) is the distance from the centre of the ship to the furthest point on the ship. Obviously, this calculation is rather inaccurate in most cases for the long, thin Karuna. :D It also believe that this retail behaviour, the code doesn't seem to have changed significantly since then (weapon_area_calc_damage in weapon/weapons.cpp).
I've also checked this with the new BP2 and both its default Karuna and the new Karuna model posted by The E. The default new Karuna has an object->radius value of ~1500m, while both the old BP2 Karuna and the newest Karuna have an object->radius of ~800m. I think that the fact that the problem model had nearly double the radius of the other models is what was making Delenda Est so difficult to complete, that's a *huge* area where the Karunas will take damage from any shockwave, definitely from their own Apocalypses, but probably also from bombs shot down within that radius. The uber-bomber issue would also contribute extra bomb shockwaves...
Anyway, given that this behaviour is what the old BP2 was balanced for, I'm going to mantis this and come back to it later. I have a feeling that the solution is going to be a bit complicated...
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It may be a difficult fix, but well done, sir! :yes:
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The default new Karuna has an object->radius value of ~1500m, while both the old BP2 Karuna and the newest Karuna have an object->radius of ~800m
eiyeesh. That certainly explains it.
I had kind of wondered if it could be something like this but my IDE is too much of a mess for me to start digging through unfamiliar code. If I could give you a medal or something I would.
I wonder if this means we can blow up the Collie from six clicks away, what with the offcenter anchor point and all. :drevil:
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Could you host your old bp-visuals1 somewhere ? I'd like to do tests of my own on the old Karuna.
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Pre-update BP2 can be found in the ModDB page... :nervous:
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it seems that shockwave damage attenuation calculation uses a sphere centered on the target object (i.e. Karuna) which is compared to the distance from the origin of the shockwave.
Wouldn't simply using bbox cut it?...
Or LODX
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A radius check is a single comparison operation. Bounding box tests involve at least 6 comparisons. So, in retail, :v: only used the radius check because it's reasonably fast and accurate. Might need to rethink that.
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And it's not like anything in retail shoots enough bombs that a more precise check would be needed.
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i've never noticed ships taking damage from shockwaves in retail. if a bomb can explode that far away and still do damage, i would have thought it would be rather noticeable.
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Retail is retail. There is little everything, bombs too. FSO has too have mods in mind as well, but I think it will be discussed by SCP members and they will decide whether this is worth the effort or not. We've got the cause of DE difficulty, so let's just leave this to professionals.
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Finally got round to finishing WiH today, and no issues with this on easy. (i know easy, head held in shame)
edit
fs2_open_3_6_14_RC6.exe and a download from about a month ago
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Finally got round to finishing WiH today, and no issues with this on easy. (i know easy, head held in shame)
edit
fs2_open_3_6_14_RC6.exe and a download from about a month ago
To be honest, when I actually beat this mission with this release, I actually couldn't beat in on easy and finally beat it on hard... no idea why :confused:
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I dont know if it was fixed in BP but retail had a quirk in the difficulty scaling where friendly AI weaponry (i think) degraded in performance with lower difficulties, the difference was that the player got a massive boost on easier settings so there are missions in the retail campaign where it is easier to keep a friendly ships alive on higher difficulties because they were hitting harder in relation to the opposition
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I don't think the difficulty setting really matters much in Delenda Est since it's overwhelmingly bomber intercept and turret sniping, neither of which involve a lot of incoming fire. It's much different in, say, Aristeia.
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Apologies for the slight thread necro, but I thought there's a chance my input could help. I read back on the posts, and it mentioned friendly fire, self hits and the Leviathan of death. I can confirm the latter one, if needed I'll upload some pics of a continuous stream of missiles from the closest leviathans missile launcher (forgot its name). At first I thought I messed up, then after a lot of unsuccessful attempts I started debugging it as much as I could. I knew the beams weren't a problem, as frigate health was dropping without any beams online. The friendly/self damage was my next guess. I watched the monitor and the nice, yellow trailed torpedoes but none of them hit any of the frigates. Took me like 3 more desperate tries after that to find the azure trailed missiles hitting the frigs, which was coming from the leviathan. The hits were in sync with the crazy HP drops, so I said problem solved. After paveway-ing its launcher, it was all good.
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I think they tracked down the source of the bug.
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What? Since when did we figure out what the bug was? I thought it was still up in the air.
@Medve: Could you post more details about how you tested the fusion mortar damage? We had someone run isolated tests which showed fusion mortars to do their expected damage.
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I'm fairly sure the problem is this (http://scp.indiegames.us/mantis/view.php?id=2664) combined with a Karuna model that had an incorrect radius value (twice as large as it should have been) - The E posted a fixed model in the thread back a few pages.
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Finished the game on RC5, I don't know what I did that made the mission unplayable for the first half in RC6 on Very Easy.
What I have to say (after overcoming many crashes, technical difficulties, and drinking an unhealthy amount of soda to get over it):
On RC6, on the first few waves of bombers, each Cyclops dealt about 4% damage, making the Indus die on the Leander's joust. RC5 was about 1 to 2%.
Also, when I had to disarm the Iolanthe and Denaira, I sent Beta 1 and 2 to disarm the latter's forward beam cannons (had to use the External targeting view so I knew what to assign them for). Seeing how they had plot immunity, I sent them by the second wave (I swapped their Darts for Paveways, putting the pressure off the first strike package's escort, which was the rest of us). Made the whole disarming debacle a lot easier, after a series of hitting "C-1-1/2-4."
Now that's what I call working my ass off for an ending. Much more so when I was crazy enough to play stock FS2 via War in Heaven (made Bearbeating a metric crackton easier, but somehow the Shivans got a little bit too intelligent, plus Xinny and Zero somehow died in the 15-minute SOC mission).
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Were Xinny and Zero invincible during the SOC op in retail FS2? I seem to remember seeing them get killed, I thought it was only snipes who had plot armor in that mission.
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From the wiki. (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Into_the_Lion%27s_Den)
All your wingmen become invulnerable after taking a certain amount of damage. The same does not apply to you, however.
When in doubt, always consult the wiki.
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I've done some testing with the Karuna linked by The E, in Collateral Damage (it's faster to test with than Delenda Est :)) it seems to have made a fairly big difference, the Akula took ~9k self Apocalypse damage with the new model, and ~28k with the old model.
Man, no wonder the UEF is losing so badly. They do more to kill their own ships than the Tevs.
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Nah - it's the SCP who are secretly supporting the GTVA :nervous:
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Either that, or given how there seems to be some strange bugs with some GTVA ships as well, the SCP has hijacked by Carl and this is only the beginning.
Soon... Shivan Juggernauts that have insane inertia! Watch as the Colossus gets rammed by a gigantic space flea traveling at 640m/s!
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Soon... Shivan Juggernauts that have insane inertia! Watch as the Colossus gets rammed by a gigantic space flea traveling at 640m/s!
Make it 800m/s and I'd pay to see that...
just joking
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Soon... Shivan Juggernauts that have insane inertia! Watch as the Colossus gets rammed by a gigantic space flea traveling at 640m/s!
Make it 800m/s and I'd pay to see that...
just joking
When I get the time to try/figure it out, I'll let you know what it looks like (assuming the game doesn't just crash horrifically on impact). Imagine that--the Sathanas' inertia ramming the Colossus is so destructive that it breaks reality (or the game's reality, so to speak).
EDIT: Also, I'm a little sad at how this otherwise-incredible mission was turned into the most frustrating, annoying, rage-inducing gaming experience in recent memory. It was a combination of many factors, but in hindsight, I now realize that it was a combination of both the "uber-bombers" and the Karuna self-damage that made all of my attempts to do things well enough to beat the mission pointless.
To be honest, my experience with this mission was so bad it's almost like Murphey pulled every trick in the book, including invoking the berserk button for my second-most rage-inducing gameplay experience in recent memory (FS2's and AoA's "Helios bomb the Sathanas' turrets in 2 minutes" missions).
I was playing on Easy difficulty, and I'd attempted the mission at least 50 times, never getting as far as the Hanuman's obliteration. I just gave up and used cheats to just kill everything when required by the objectives, but that didn't work either--because the Karunas would kill themselves. Then, I made all of the Karunas--and myself, because at this point I was just DONE, and wanted to finally f****ing finish this mission--invincible, cheat-killed everything in-sequence, FINALLY got to the part where the Imperieuse shows up, watched with utter glee and spite as all the UEF ships got obliterated one-by-one, and then I go to cover the Indus' retreat, and then....
...then I got obliterated by one of the main beam cannons of the Imperiouse. No, really. That should not have even been possible for a number of reasons, but hell, I'll list them:
1) I wasn't directly in-between the Imperiouse and either the Indus or Yangtze.
2) The Imperiouse is not in range to even shoot at the Indus or Yangtze, for its own list of reasons.
3) I was not in the Imperiouse's line of fire with any of the doomed UEF ships.
4) I was, through cheats, invulnerable.
5) Capital ship beam cannons are flagged to only target/shoot at other capships, not craft or bombs.
6) I don't think I was even in range of the Imperiouse's beam cannons either.
7) I was, through cheats, invulnerable. (yes, I'm listing this twice)
So, by this point, I can't decide whether this is hilarious, utterly baffling, unfathomably frustrating/rage-inducing, or just spitefully insane. I quickly come to the conclusion that it is all of the above, to absurd levels, and so I am now out of ****s to give.
I turn on cheats, and kill everything. Then the Sathanas shows up. This part is solely hilarious, because it was an explicit throwback to a berserk button of mine within an even greater berserk button. I'm not sure what the dev team was aiming for the player to think/feel when the Sathanas shows up, but it probably wasn't gleeful, slightly cathartic rage at quickly annihilating the Sathanas with `Kx10--that particular feat was something I was very, very experienced in.
"Now seriously, go read a book"? I already had, that same day (not the entire book, obviously). So my course of action was a little bit different.
I did one final attempt at the mission. I used cheats immediately, carefully, and methodically. I stayed the hell away from the Imperiouse and beam cannons in general, made all allied ships invincible until the Imperiouse showed up, and killed everything in sequence.
At this point, I'm waaaaay beyond empathy for any of the characters in the game (in the moment), and I'm taking mild satisfaction from the Diablos Ex Machina that dooms the Yangtze without any warning/precedent--or at least that's what I perceived it as at the time. I was practically rooting for the GTVA at this point, because the UEF's elite strike force of four frigates, two heavy cruisers, twelve Uriel gunships, and an AWACS would--without fail--get utterly decimated by a few bomber wings and a handful of older cruisers and corvettes piecemeal. It took trial-and-error refined, precise, and overkill-levels of cheats divine intervention to get anywhere near the Carthage, and only when I made it impossible for the Karunas to kill themselves with their own weapons, at that.
And when the Indus ended up where it did, in the state it did...I was just cracking up. It wasn't until Simms' letter that I stopped feeling like the Joker ("it's hilarious to just watch the world burn") and started caring about the characters again. For the most part. I was definitely not in the right state of mind to appreciate it then. I do now, for sure, but back then...
In hindsight, it was pretty much the polar opposite of ME3's end-game. A fantastic end-game, story climax, twist, and ending (temporarily) ruined by an absurdly unlikely combination of factors outside of the control of either party, coincidentally putting me in the worst possible state of mind for the ending (and the crazy, mission-breaking bugs were found, acknowledged, and addressed with impressive skill and tenacity). As opposed to ME3's, you know, terrible-in-almost-every-way end-game, unbelievably anticlimactic ending/end-game, dozens of nonsensical and self-contradictory plot twists from out of nowhere, and a series of utter disillusionment, betrayal, criminally false advertising,, totally shameless cover-ups/PR BS, and of course the intellectual disrespect towards the fans, with regards to BioWare.
Now, I can look back at DE and the ending and really appreciate it for its awesomeness, while I can't look back at ME3, BioWare, or at times the ME-series in general without disgust and disappointment.
I apologize if these ramblings are off-topic or irrelevant; I hope they helped or were amusing in some way. Now I can feel very much at ease with regards to this mission, thanks to the awesome work/troubleshooting of the dev team and players alike.
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It sounds like the Imperious finally decided to take charge without justification. ;)
But seriously now, I think the problem is that the devs might have removed the difficulty damage scaling? Seems the most logical answer about the damage scales.
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There is one thing (or two, depending on point of view :P) from your list that I can explain.
During the in-game cutscene, where the Imperieuse jumps in, the invulnerbility is deactivated (same for Mr. Snuggles jumping in). Wether this is FREDded or a "side effect" of ingame cutscenes, I do not know.
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afaik, that's because the player is invulnerable during cutscenes to not get roflstomped while stationary and unable to react in any way.
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Ouch, man. That's pretty rough. I was in the same boat too, but I didn't nearly get as far as you did. :p
I did start losing empathy for the characters when playing the updated version before I knew it was a bug. I got so frustrated thinking that I was just an awful player. I pretty much put away FreeSpace for awhile. (Once I start setting things up, I should go back to playing.)
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It sounds like the Imperious finally decided to take charge without justification. ;)
But seriously now, I think the problem is that the devs might have removed the difficulty damage scaling? Seems the most logical answer about the damage scales.
When QuantumDelta barely manages to complete the mission with a perfect playthrough, the mission difficulty goes beyond "highest difficulty level" and into "only a perfect speedrun will actually result in success".
Which just makes QD's playthrough of that mission all the more amazing. QD versus every craft in the Carthage battlegroup, and the Carthage battlegroup itself? No contest, QD slaughters or neuters them all. Come to think of it, why not just stop building Karunas/Narayanas and ramp up production of Uriels and Durga bombers? You could practically shock-jump the shock-jumper corvettes.
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The failed attack on Serkr team during the second mission of WiH pretty much proves how inefficient that tactic would be.
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The failed attack on Serkr team during the second mission of WiH pretty much proves how inefficient that tactic would be.
1) Serker is not your average shock-jump corvette [group]; they're equipped with the most advanced tech available, some of which seems to still be in the experimental/testing phase.
2) Serker is a group of THREE shock-jump corvettes that are highly coordinated and masters of pre-planned maneuvers.
3) Maybe I missed it, but that attack on Serker team was just a handful of Durga bombers charging headlong into the corvette formation without even attempting to disarm turrets first. I'm referring to having Uriels snipe the critical turrets from outside the turrets' range, which is in turn followed up by a blitz of Uriel and Durga spam (six Rapiers or two Gattlers, plus Hellfires/Paveways...times eight. From the Uriels alone.). If necessary, the Uriels could also use their Archers/Paveways to take out the corvette's engines so it can't escape. In case of fighter escort, Slammers, Grimmlers, and six-eight Uriels handle that rather easily.
4) You'd never attack a formation of three shock-jump corvettes without overwhelming numbers or a brilliant plan. We're talking proportional force, here; I FREDded a mission recently where three Kents and two Vadj (or durgas, can't remember) bombers attack a GTL Anemoi; the GTL's health drops to 50% within seconds, even when the Kents are engaged/distracted, and the entire ship will die astonishingly quickly if you don't kill those bombers yourself, FAST.
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I'd also try to attack GTVA corvettes from the back, given half a chance, except perhaps the Deimos, but unfortunately the UEF gunships didn't have enough time to circle around them.
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The failed attack on Serkr team during the second mission of WiH pretty much proves how inefficient that tactic would be.
Well, the Ranvir had just finished showing how effective the alternative tactic was. :p
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In any case, the major issue you'll very quickly face if you start only building fighter/bombers is, where do they dock. You would need an awful lot of space stations, which are easy targets, or ground bases, which also are easy bombardment targets and pose the problem of going into orbit before being able to jump out where needed, reducing the maneuverability advantage by a huge margin.
Which is why it is better to have your fighters hosted in mobile, fully armed warships like Karunae or Solarises.
Not to mention that for the firepower required to take down a couple of fighter wings, you'd only damage a frigate. Which can be repaired. Your lost fighter and, more importantly, lost pilot, are much harder to replace.
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I am still excessively impressed by this mod, seriously. Greatest work I ever encountered in FS2 (and not even there -- not exaggerating).
Now I beg your pardon that I wouldn't leaf through ten pages here, for I long for just one little quick answer: What are the two checkpoint options for I can choose at the beginning of the flight (couldn't find an answer in the wiki)?
I had chosen 2nd about three times, to no visible effect; at the 4th time, my ship war instantly teleported to a checkpoint, and I was ordered to land on Indus immediately, resulting in a successful mission ending ...
er...
did I miss something?
For I have finished it, I am not able to replay it completely (id est, with any alternate succeeding missions).
Thanks a lot!
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If you call in one of the checkpoints as reinforcements in the first moments of the mission, it should - unless something has broken horribly - load a later point in the mission: either right before the showdown with the Carthage air wing (checkpoint 1), or during the retreat after the Imperieuse arrives (checkpoint 2).
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Thanks, that was fast! So checkpoint2 worked fine.
Just an other question, maybe unrelated to WiH specifically?: in the Alternate Ending video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNfp2n88FrU ) there is a female warning voice when shields are low. Any idea how to activate that? Seems to be very practical, because especially with the conversation and dogfights in WiH, it is not always easy to have ones eyes on the damage meter at all times ...
And while we are on sounds: It occured that the tracking and logon sounds of missiles (any type) didn't beep an the afterburner didn't sound as well, while all other sounds were normal. This occured in Delenda est as well as in former missions of WiH, but only occasionally (after restarting a mission, all could be (!) well again).
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The betty voice should be active by default. Were you not hearing it?
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The betty voice should be active by default. Were you not hearing it?
Sorry, no. I am now running FS2 on a mac but have also not heard it on XP before. briefing Voice in the options menu is activated.
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Could it be that one must enable a special option (in-game or via launcher) that must be set to enable the Betty voice? Since it is a mod for BP (if I understood the wiki correctly), maybe that option has another meaning as well or something and so I switched it off without knowing that it would also kick poor Betty? Thanks for advice!
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No, it should be on by default. Let me poke around.
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Excellent, 've sent you a link to my debug log.
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It would be better if you could post it here for all to see (either as an attachment, or surrounded by [code][/code] tags, or by using pastebin.com), rather than as a PM.
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Fairly true, I will next time. We have now found the problem: I had run wx_launcher some time ago with Warzone Beta, but otherwise used FS2_Launcher. This messed up the command line for there was the -warzone beta -mediavps.12 AND AS WELL the -bp2 -mediavps.12 (abbreviated command options just here) both in one line.
After setting wxlauncher to "No Mod" everything works fine for now. Thanks General for the excellent help&hint to the doubled command-line!
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I don't normally follow BP threads because I haven't yet finished WiH1 :nervous: but I had a hunch this particular discussion was an OS X-related support issue.
Hoot, if you want to use just FS2_Launcher (also called Soulstorm's Launcher (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Soulstorm%27s_OS_X_Launcher)), delete or rename the copy of cmdline_fso.cfg that's in your FS2 folder's data folder. The section titled "If you have problems when you use one launcher and then the other one" from the link above has the details.
Note that FS2_Launcher is no longer supported and wxLauncher is now the standard launcher on OS X.
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Thanks, I will switch to wx_launcher (also the Mod preview is quite handy) and try it.