Author Topic: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion  (Read 22598 times)

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Offline m!m

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
I broadly disagree. There are obviously people who can't run the MediaVPs because of system limitations — I was one of them myself for years — but that doesn't mean they can't install a small pack of assets to enable some new features that they already need to install the FSO executable and launcher to use.
Why would we need new assets? We already sort of agree on using the existing GUI system that doesn't require new assets.

 
Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
That UI system is very clunky, very ugly and currently used only for debugging and development purposes, and by all accounts it's a nightmare to work with its code. Please, please don't use it just so you can avoid using interface assets.
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Offline chief1983

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
The FSO is a drop-in replacement for the FS2 retail binary.  If we're going to add an additional menu, it would be nice of us to allow it to work without additional assets.  And it's already stated that it should be feasible, so I don't see the point in requiring additional assets if we don't have to.  No one's talking about only people who _can't_ run the MediaVPs, but there are times when you don't want to be running additional assets besides retail.
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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
When? I mean really, when? Why is it so important to support this scenario where someone is running FSO and a) can use no additional assets whatsoever, no matter how trivial and b) needs to be able to turn on the 3D radar and rearm timer? If they really need the latter, which are no more part of the retail experience than the MediaVPs, they can just install the interface pack.
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Offline m!m

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
Why should the SCP create a new GUI system that can use interface assets if there is already an existing system? There is no reason to create a new system or adapt the existing one. However if you want to do that you are free to create a pull request on GitHub.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2015, 11:14:04 am by m!m »

 
Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
That UI system is very clunky, very ugly and currently used only for debugging and development purposes, and by all accounts it's a nightmare to work with its code.

I mean for god's sake you're talking about using HTML to build UIs right in this thread. If the only reason not to do that is that it'd require interface art I really hope you reconsider.
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Offline mjn.mixael

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
That UI system is very clunky, very ugly and currently used only for debugging and development purposes, and by all accounts it's a nightmare to work with its code.

I mean for god's sake you're talking about using HTML to build UIs right in this thread. If the only reason not to do that is that it'd require interface art I really hope you reconsider.

Dude, FSO doesn't even like to ship with external DLLs if it can be helped.. much less a whole interface pack. Not only that, but what about m!m's post (that I don't think you bothered to read) that says that HTML chromium engine might cause performance issues for people who are running retail assets already for performance reasons. It's a good point.

But no one is saying the HTML stuff won't be developed. They are trying to find a way to create a special menu that works for people running retail data. Which, by the way, is and always will be a staple requirement for the SCP. The HTML stuff will be an added bonus for mods and even the MVPs to take advantage of.
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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
Dude, FSO doesn't even like to ship with external DLLs if it can be helped.. much less a whole interface pack.

Yes, this is what I'm trying to challenge. Obviously FSO shouldn't need to ship with any additional files to be able to run, but I think requiring extra assets to enable functionality that was never in retail to start with is pretty reasonable and the SCP shouldn't be going to these lengths to avoid doing so. As for Chromium overtaxing low-end systems... well, that's a good reason not to use Chromium for this. It still doesn't mean we should be designing interfaces around the limitation that they work with no additional assets.
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Offline mjn.mixael

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
So you basically want to challenge one of SCP's base principles. OK, whatever dude. Knock yourself out.
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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
No, this isn't one of the SCP's base principles. The SCP's base principle is 'don't break retail'. This doesn't break retail in any way. It's not any different from the MediaVPs, even.
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Offline chief1983

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
Actually I'm not entirely sure that this violates a base principle, unless we _replace_ the command line interface for setting options, as opposed to simply augmenting it with an easier to use menu.  If we augment, retail assets alone could still be customized as long as command line options are always available for any feature the new menu supports configuring (or at least those that make sense with only retail assets).

But here's the thing.  Any HTML menu would exist to replace some menu that already exists hardcoded into the engine.  Without some sort of existing new menu hardcoded into the engine for options configuration, how is a prettified HTML version supposed to even know what to do?  We'd have to create the actual set of hooks and such for this new menu, allowed actions, etc, and if we go that far...we might as well template it out in wmcgui or an embedded HTML (I still think that's a viable option as long as this only augments command line, since those having performance issues can just not enter the HTML menu and load the chromium engine).
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Offline The E

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
I broadly disagree. There are obviously people who can't run the MediaVPs because of system limitations — I was one of them myself for years — but that doesn't mean they can't install a small pack of assets to enable some new features that they already need to install the FSO executable and launcher to use.

And our position is simply that if a solution can be found that doesn't require external art assets, then that solution should be pursued.
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Offline m!m

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
Especially if that solution is actually easier to implement than a solution using external assets.

 
Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
If it's easier to implement and pleasant to use then I'm all for it. I don't think you should compromise implementability or ease of use just to avoid requiring assets, though.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline m!m

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
It would be barebones so it probably wouldn't be as pleasant to use but that's why HTML should be used by everything but retail.

 

Offline chief1983

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
The other thing is, it doesn't stop anyone from releasing a pretty HTML interface pack just for this, separate from anything else.  Could be used like the multiplayer mission pack, the ogg movie pack, etc.  Things that even a 'core' setup might still prefer to use.
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"You may not sell or otherwise commercially exploit the source or things you created based on the source." -- Excerpt from FSO license, for reference

Nuclear1:  Jesus Christ zack you're a little too hamyurger for HLP right now...
iamzack:  i dont have hamynerge i just want ptatoc hips D:
redsniper:  Platonic hips?!
iamzack:  lays

 

Offline Swifty

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
When implementing the slider bars in the WMC GUI to get gloss sliders for PBR, I thought about building an interface for SCP specific graphics options. I think the best solution I thought up of was creating a pop-up box using the retail quit game dialog box art asset and populating it with procedurally drawn options. That way you could just draw it on top of anything without changing the current state in the UI state machine since it's a pop up window. I tried looking for retail assets that I could drop in but a lot of interface art blocks are "anchored" to the bevels of the interface backgrounds which is really annoying.

I think the best solution is to have best of both worlds. Have an interface that can use modder-definable art assets but is capable of drawing it procedurally if none are available.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2015, 12:13:23 pm by Swifty »

 

Offline m!m

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
I think the best solution is to have best of both worlds. Have an interface that can use modder-definable art assets but is capable of drawing it procedurally if none are available.
But that would require additional work for implementing a system that would only be used very rarely. The standard case would be that the modder uses HTML for their interface.

 

Offline Swifty

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
Well okay, if that's too much work, I'd rather just write a jank WMC GUI interface and not even bother with modder definable assets. Unless you want me to wait for an HTML/CSS-based interface system to be ready.

 

Offline m!m

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
That's exactly what we want to do :p