[Thisisaverylongusername]

So instead of going through the bother of sabotaging the Colossus, why couldn't the Iceni have jumped out behind the Knossos, where the Colossus couldn't get into range with its main guns? How did they even get saboteurs aboard the Colossus?

[AdmiralRalwood]

Beware "why didn't they just...?" questions as regards to subspace jumps; that way lies madness.

As for your second question, how do you know there were NTF saboteurs on the Colossus?

Spoiler:

How do you know Command didn't just want the Iceni to make it to the nebula so they could what happened with the ETAK project, and just pretended that the Colossus was the victim of NTF sabotage?

[Thisisaverylongusername]

Excellent answers with even more questions raised... thread closed for another 300 years until we can get the answers! 

[Luis Dias]

The conspiracy theory is filled with good evidence. Right at the Chariots mission (2nd), Bosch tries to negotiate with Command. Command guy doesn't give Bosch a chance to deal with the GTVA, but let's remember that Command Guy is just a ranking officer guy sitting at a desk inside your battleship. Right afterwards, you are told to pursue Bosch but you were clearly given bad coordinates and there's no blockade near the node. From that moment on, the NTF goes on a blitzkrieg towards the Nebula, and all of their fleet is squashed by command except for the flagship with the ETAK device. It really looks as if Bosch contacted GTVA high command, told them what he really thought about the Shivans, told them what he was really trying to do, and managed a deal wherein he would sacrifice the entire NTF fleet and in return he would be able to flee to the Nebula to contact the Shivans.

It's also really possible that this deal was behind closed doors and unbeknownst to even big chaps like Petrarch. It is possible that the people who negotiated with Bosch did all the things so that it would appear as if the GTVA was really trying hard to catch Bosch, while giving him enough edges to do his own thing.

[qwadtep]

There's no grand conspiracy between Bosch and the GTVA. Command just knows that whatever Bosch is up to is probably extremely valuable and bides its time until the project is complete so it can be captured. The rank-and-file pilots and crews who are tasked with fighting the real military threat (the NTF fleet) simply aren't privy to the plan.

[An4ximandros]

They could what happened, Ralwood... but did they?

The most likely scenario here is simple: SOC already knew what Bosch was trying to do. And they wanted a piece of that pie. I would not even reject the idea that the player gets thrown into the NTF as a defector because whatever spy is close to Bosch is probably drawing some attention; and you are just bait to lure them away long enough to let them finish their mission.

[DeepSpace9er]

Command let Bosch go in 2 and 3. They wanted to find out what he was up to and it ended the battle for Deneb. As for the other escapes by Bosch, they were well executed get-aways. Command was out to capture or kill him by Endgame.

The real question is, why did the Iceni jump in a perfect position to jump out 30 seconds later? Yet the gas miners, Sunder, Iceni (Rebels and Renegades), Bastion, and the capella evac convoys all require lengthy 10-15 minute slow boating from the jump in point to the node? How can the Iceni in one mission just make a suicide run for the Knossos, yet every other ship requires a nice long 15 minute escort with waves of fighters and bombers coming after them? Dont you think especially the capella evacuations would be rapid? And yeah the Psamtik had interference from the subspace portal, but why didnt the Iceni in Endgame?

[Droid803]

Perhaps the Iceni simply has a better jump drive/nav system than the Psamtik.
It is one-of-a-kind ship, presumably modified for the exact purpose of making that run.

[Luis Dias]

There's no grand conspiracy between Bosch and the GTVA. Command just knows that whatever Bosch is up to is probably extremely valuable and bides its time until the project is complete so it can be captured. The rank-and-file pilots and crews who are tasked with fighting the real military threat (the NTF fleet) simply aren't privy to the plan.

You realise your idea is compatible with a conspiracy, right? Bosch has an "understanding" with the GTVA. It's a very limited one, but it clearly exists. That never meant that they were now best friends forever.

[Megawolf492]

As for your second question, how do you know there were NTF saboteurs on the Colossus?

Spoiler:

How do you know Command didn't just want the Iceni to make it to the nebula so they could what happened with the ETAK project, and just pretended that the Colossus was the victim of NTF sabotage?

Who said it had to be NTF sabotage? It could have been GTVA/SOC people that they just swept under the rug (or let hang out to dry).

You realise your idea is compatible with a conspiracy, right? Bosch has an "understanding" with the GTVA. It's a very limited one, but it clearly exists. That never meant that they were now best friends forever.

If you mean that he understood what command was doing, yeah I'd agree to that. If what you mean is he called them up and said "Let's make a deal", then no. Command was smart enough to understand what he was doing without Bosch's input. Even though he wasn't as fanatical as his followers, he still hated the GTVA. He wouldn't negotiate unless he was flustered and not in (relative) control. We see that in the second mission and no where else.

[AdmiralRalwood]

As for your second question, how do you know there were NTF saboteurs on the Colossus?

Spoiler:

How do you know Command didn't just want the Iceni to make it to the nebula so they could what happened with the ETAK project, and just pretended that the Colossus was the victim of NTF sabotage?

Who said it had to be NTF sabotage? It could have been GTVA/SOC people that they just swept under the rug (or let hang out to dry).

Well, it was in direct response to this question:

So instead of going through the bother of sabotaging the Colossus, why couldn't the Iceni have jumped out behind the Knossos, where the Colossus couldn't get into range with its main guns? How did they even get saboteurs aboard the Colossus?

So... that's who said it was NTF sabotage.

You realise your idea is compatible with a conspiracy, right? Bosch has an "understanding" with the GTVA. It's a very limited one, but it clearly exists. That never meant that they were now best friends forever.

If you mean that he understood what command was doing, yeah I'd agree to that. If what you mean is he called them up and said "Let's make a deal", then no. Command was smart enough to understand what he was doing without Bosch's input. Even though he wasn't as fanatical as his followers, he still hated the GTVA. He wouldn't negotiate unless he was flustered and not in (relative) control. We see that in the second mission and no where else.

How do you know Bosch hates the GTVA?

(Edited to correct a bizarre quote misattribution.)

[Luis Dias]

If you mean that he understood what command was doing, yeah I'd agree to that. If what you mean is he called them up and said "Let's make a deal", then no. Command was smart enough to understand what he was doing without Bosch's input. Even though he wasn't as fanatical as his followers, he still hated the GTVA. He wouldn't negotiate unless he was flustered and not in (relative) control. We see that in the second mission and no where else.

This is flat out wrong headed. Freespace 2 is incredibly minimalistic in its writing, meaning that a few words here and there will describe whole events, instead of dragging lore writing on and on and on like other games do. The simple fact that right in the second mission we see Bosch attempting to negotiate with Command a safe passage, and that in the third mission we are both shown GTVA's "incompetency" at capturing Bosch, and told by one strident wingmate how this is obvious Command's decision, it becomes obvious that not only these people are able to negotiate things, they clearly did so right at the start.

You say "well that's just because he was flustered", but it's also obvious he was getting in a harsher situation by the end of his campaign.

You say he "hated" the GTVA, when the evidence for this is ambiguous at best. The GTVA is basically an alliance between a powerful thriving Vasudan species and a crisis-laden problematic human species. It's obvious that in FS2 timeline, Khonsu II is the most powerful political figure in the Alliance. To be against the GTVA was to be against Vasudans. But Bosch was not particularly fighting against Vasudan species: "What my enemies will never understand is that my rebellion is about my love for humanity, not my hatred of Vasudans." He was fighting to get the human species in a whole different direction: to arrange an alliance with the Shivans. He used basic ethnic paranoia and tribalism as a tool to pursue his goals, he was most likely not characterized by them.

[Megawolf492]

As for your second question, how do you know there were NTF saboteurs on the Colossus?

Spoiler:

How do you know Command didn't just want the Iceni to make it to the nebula so they could what happened with the ETAK project, and just pretended that the Colossus was the victim of NTF sabotage?

Who said it had to be NTF sabotage? It could have been GTVA/SOC people that they just swept under the rug (or let hang out to dry).

Well, it was in direct response to this question:

So instead of going through the bother of sabotaging the Colossus, why couldn't the Iceni have jumped out behind the Knossos, where the Colossus couldn't get into range with its main guns?

So... you said it was NTF sabotage.

Uh, that wasn't me that said that. That was the original poster, "Thisisaverylongusername".

How do you know Bosch hates the GTVA?

He says this in one of his monologues:

What my enemies will never understand is that my rebellion is about my love for humanity and not my hatred of Vasudans.

So even though the rebellion was a smoke screen, he did believe in its core ideals. He hated the GTVA, even if it was only because of the V part.

Freespace 2 is incredibly minimalistic in its writing, meaning that a few words here and there will describe whole events, instead of dragging lore writing on and on and on like other games do. The simple fact that right in the second mission we see Bosch attempting to negotiate with Command a safe passage, and that in the third mission we are both shown GTVA's "incompetency" at capturing Bosch, and told by one strident wingmate how this is obvious Command's decision, it becomes obvious that not only these people are able to negotiate things, they clearly did so right at the start.

I agree that FS2 has less lore than, say, Mass Effect. However, to stretch what lore we do have over the gaps is unwise in my opinion. Yes, Bosch tried to negotiate in mission 2. Does that mean that he negotiated before? Not necessarily. If he did negotiate before mission 2, why would he negotiate again? It's clear that the fighters/bombers that attacked him posed no problem. He was concerned about the warships that were in the blockade and elsewhere in Deneb. If he and the GTVA had an agreement, he shouldn't be worried. His safety would be ensured if he had a prior agreement. Besides, why would he say "I would question the wisdom of your leaders" if the leaders helped him out?

You say "well that's just because he was flustered", but it's also obvious he was getting in a harsher situation by the end of his campaign.

To his rebellion, yes, but not his ultimate goal. By the end of the rebellion, the ETAK device was (almost?) complete, so all he had to do was get to the nebula. It's probable that the Iceni had a better than average engine & subspace drive, so it could out run/jump most ships. The saboteurs on the Colossus were an ace in the hole if he needed it. So even though reaching the nebula was risky, he had it relatively under control.

[Luis Dias]

I agree that FS2 has less lore than, say, Mass Effect. However, to stretch what lore we do have over the gaps is unwise in my opinion. Yes, Bosch tried to negotiate in mission 2. Does that mean that he negotiated before? Not necessarily. If he did negotiate before mission 2, why would he negotiate again? It's clear that the fighters/bombers that attacked him posed no problem. He was concerned about the warships that were in the blockade and elsewhere in Deneb. If he and the GTVA had an agreement, he shouldn't be worried. His safety would be ensured if he had a prior agreement. Besides, why would he say "I would question the wisdom of your leaders" if the leaders helped him out?

You are confused. We are discussing what happened in the Collossus sabotaging, not what happened before the events of FS2. I never said, nor anyone else did, that Bosch had a previous dealing with Command. That is something that we can agree probably never happened. The events in the second mission hint that this was his first attempt to negotiate with Command. It's not necessarily "true", but we can assume it is for the sake of what we know. What I and others have been defending is that from mission 2 henceforth, Bosch could have been in intermittent contact with Command, and perhaps negotiating terms and conditions that ended up with Bosch sacrificing his entire fleet so that he alone could enter the nebula. Everyone got what they wanted. Bosch entered the nebula with the ETAK technology, the GTVA got the entire NTF fleet destroyed.

To his rebellion, yes, but not his ultimate goal. By the end of the rebellion, the ETAK device was (almost?) complete, so all he had to do was get to the nebula. It's probable that the Iceni had a better than average engine & subspace drive, so it could out run/jump most ships. The saboteurs on the Colossus were an ace in the hole if he needed it. So even though reaching the nebula was risky, he had it relatively under control.

Sure, this is extremely possible. The saboteurs could have been NTF agents.

[AdmiralRalwood]

As for your second question, how do you know there were NTF saboteurs on the Colossus?

Spoiler:

How do you know Command didn't just want the Iceni to make it to the nebula so they could what happened with the ETAK project, and just pretended that the Colossus was the victim of NTF sabotage?

Who said it had to be NTF sabotage? It could have been GTVA/SOC people that they just swept under the rug (or let hang out to dry).

Well, it was in direct response to this question:

So instead of going through the bother of sabotaging the Colossus, why couldn't the Iceni have jumped out behind the Knossos, where the Colossus couldn't get into range with its main guns?

So... you said it was NTF sabotage.

Uh, that wasn't me that said that. That was the original poster, "Thisisaverylongusername".

How do you know Bosch hates the GTVA?

He says this in one of his monologues:

What my enemies will never understand is that my rebellion is about my love for humanity and not my hatred of Vasudans.

So even though the rebellion was a smoke screen, he did believe in its core ideals. He hated the GTVA, even if it was only because of the V part.

Whoops, not sure how that quote screwed up like that. Still, the point is that in context, NTF sabotage was being discussed.

Anyway, while that quote could be interpreted to say that he hates the Vasudans even though that's not why he's rebelling, it could also be interpreted to say that he never hated Vasudans at all. What it is not is evidence that Bosch hated the GTVA.

[Darius]

I thought Bosch was quite obviously portrayed as being motivated by pragmatism rather than emotion? Not that he hated vasudans but that he saw no future with them, and it was his followers who were angry and resentful.

[NGTM-1R]

He says this in one of his monologues:

What my enemies will never understand is that my rebellion is about my love for humanity and not my hatred of Vasudans.

So even though the rebellion was a smoke screen, he did believe in its core ideals. He hated the GTVA, even if it was only because of the V part.

That quote does not state he hates Vasudans. It states that the common perception of him rebelling because of his hating Vasudans is wrong.

Now, there is a certain David Duke-ishness to that statement, but given the way Bosch throws his entire rebellion under the bus in the end it's hard to think he's a real ideologue preaching things he really believes.

[qwadtep]

He mentions in the same monologue that he has created in the NTF a monster that he is powerless to stop. Bosch hates Vasudans and believes humanity's salvation lies apart from them, but that doesn't mean he condones his smokescreen taking on a life of its own as a campaign of genocide. Bosch allows his militant followers to be crushed once they've served their purpose, preventing further bloodshed.

[Megawolf492]

He mentions in the same monologue that he has created in the NTF a monster that he is powerless to stop. Bosch hates Vasudans and believes humanity's salvation lies apart from them, but that doesn't mean he condones his smokescreen taking on a life of its own as a campaign of genocide. Bosch allows his militant followers to be crushed once they've served their purpose, preventing further bloodshed.

I agree with this. The war (btw, does it have a name, even unofficially?) was probably killing more humans than Vasudans. Even though the war wasn't his main goal, he still wanted to end it on his terms (well, as best as it could be). The NTF could have held up in one of their core systems for a few more months (until the Colossus rumbled in), especially when the GTVA was occupied with the Shivans. Bosch could have made it to the portal when not everyone was waiting for him.

[Luis Dias]

I'm in the camp agnostic regarding Bosch hatred of vasudans, borderline atheist at it. More like reminds me of the kind of the Big Lie theme amongst big dictators, in which a Big Lie (a myth) is enacted to rile people up and get them moving in the directions you want them to. Bosch used the hatred to his own ends that had nothing to do with Vasudans at all. All of his internal talk is focused on the Shivans and the one single mention he has of the Vasudans is when he denies his professed public intentions. His heart is 100% on the Shivan Question, not the Vasudan Question. He merely uses the VQ to get answers to his SQ, because he couldn't do so otherwise.