Author Topic: Wings of Dawn Lore  (Read 7574 times)

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Offline Enioch

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Thank you for taking the time to respond  :)  It's a pleasure to write these.
'Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent'  -Salvor Hardin, "Foundation"

So don't take a hammer to your computer. ;-)

 
Jeeeeeeeeeez, now I feel kinda bad for Pegasus.

 

Offline Lorric

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Seriously, this looks like something that will go down as one of the greatest military mistakes of the space age. It's like they handpicked the worst possible time to launch this attack. And I don't understand how they let this happen. Did they underestimate the strength of DD forces in the system? Aretha listens to Simmons, so how could he allow this to happen? I can only think they must have thought they could win and cut French out of the equation and grab all the glory for themselves? They knew exactly what was what, they knew French couldn't just exit the belts, they knew his plan in full detail. I can't see any excuse they have for this.

Did it take over 20mins to kill just 6 Dukes? Or were there more capships there? I hope the CRF have good ejector pod technology in their fighters. I suppose we'll be finding out how the capital ship battle goes next time. Maybe the CRF will fare better there if that's where their resources have been sunk into. I guess they'll also be able to deploy their bombers too unmolested by fighters. It sounds like the DD threw every fighter and bomber into the centre battle.

Could French have everyone jump out of the belts to an area of open space and then jump again to the battle? Or is that what he'll be doing anyway?

I'm really interested to see what effect, if he survives this, what happened to Fletcher's force will have on Simmons. They were his pride and joy, moulded by him over presumably many years. Mostly wiped out in about half an hour. They died magnificently, he could not have asked for more of them. But they're nearly all dead and he gave the order that sent them to their deaths. It's the kind of thing which could make a man have a mental breakdown, even if it might have been the correct thing to do.

Excellent work again. You called yourself a wordsmith. I don't think that was pretentious of you.

 

Offline Enioch

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Seriously, this looks like something that will go down as one of the greatest military mistakes of the space age. It's like they handpicked the worst possible time to launch this attack. And I don't understand how they let this happen. Did they underestimate the strength of DD forces in the system? Aretha listens to Simmons, so how could he allow this to happen? I can only think they must have thought they could win and cut French out of the equation and grab all the glory for themselves? They knew exactly what was what, they knew French couldn't just exit the belts, they knew his plan in full detail. I can't see any excuse they have for this.

Good question. Some insight may be found here (if you'll allow me to quote Aretha):

[...]

We are still here, helping Arc Victoria out, because it is our duty as loyal Britons. But as long as we are here, we will conduct ourselves as we see fit and seek battle as we see fit. If Arc Victoria wishes to have Terconia and her riches, then let her, I say. Pegasus will be satisfied with victory and glory on the battlefield. Under our own banner.

[...]

To some extent, this is a political statement for Aretha and Pegasus in general.

Also, keep in mind that Aretha and Simmons are operating with a completely different doctrine from French. They have the highly-mobile wrecking ball; he has the slow and implacable glacier. To some degree, the concept of a non-rapid-response force does not register with Pegasus; and they made their plans accordingly (and erroneously, as is the case).

They also seriously misjudged Dyatlov's determination to not defend the asteroid fields. They expected to deal with a large part of his fleet, sure, but they had also expected him to detach capital forces to somehow try and stall French. Instead, Dyatlov went "**** the asteroid fields and **** my career, I'm bringing in my entire fleet, piecemeal to kill you." Which is not behaviour one would reasonably expect.

Finally, note that, if French did abandon everything and jumped in, he would wipe the floor with Dyatlov. He can save Aretha - he has enough numbers to choke the meatgrinder. But that would involve taking horrendous casualties and giving up the asteroid fields, which are two things he absolutely refuses to do. It's not like he made it absolutely clear to Aretha what the priorities of his plans are...

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Did it take over 20mins to kill just 6 Dukes? Or were there more capships there? I hope the CRF have good ejector pod technology in their fighters. I suppose we'll be finding out how the capital ship battle goes next time. Maybe the CRF will fare better there if that's where their resources have been sunk into. I guess they'll also be able to deploy their bombers too unmolested by fighters. It sounds like the DD threw every fighter and bomber into the centre battle.

Yes, it took 20 minutes to kill the Duke carriers, because the Delest were out for complete annihilation of Fletcher's force - not a mission kill. The Dukes, despite being retrofitted as carriers, are still built around a heavy cruiser chassis. They can take considerable punishment.

And the CRF are using Tyrfings as hybrid heavies / bombers. Pegasus have, essentially, no fighter cover left, period.

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Could French have everyone jump out of the belts to an area of open space and then jump again to the battle? Or is that what he'll be doing anyway?


That's the plan. An orderly retreat of his capitals to open space, establishing a battle-line from scratch and then shock-jumping as a group.

There are problems with this approach, of course. Considerable ones. Which is why French is seething mad at Aretha right now.

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I'm really interested to see what effect, if he survives this, what happened to Fletcher's force will have on Simmons. They were his pride and joy, moulded by him over presumably many years. Mostly wiped out in about half an hour. They died magnificently, he could not have asked for more of them. But they're nearly all dead and he gave the order that sent them to their deaths. It's the kind of thing which could make a man have a mental breakdown, even if it might have been the correct thing to do.

Speculate away! - Find out in the next episode chapter!

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Excellent work again. You called yourself a wordsmith. I don't think that was pretentious of you.

It was pretentious as all ****, but I appreciate the compliment.  :D
'Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent'  -Salvor Hardin, "Foundation"

So don't take a hammer to your computer. ;-)

 

Offline Spoon

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Can I call you a wordwizard?
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 

Offline Enioch

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'Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent'  -Salvor Hardin, "Foundation"

So don't take a hammer to your computer. ;-)

 
Was it really "**** my career", though, with the Yonsakuren behind him (relatedly, **** spelling that word)? I mean, that scene had to represent something besides space yaoi. If he turns out to be right, I think that could work out well for him in the end.

This would probably be a good time to know more about WoD >_>



EDIT: The proper term is, of course, "wordzard".

 

Offline Spoon

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You keep going on about Yaoi, but uh, that's really not WoD's thing...
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 
I knew it. Yuri in WoD confirmed. Launch ALL OF THE SHIPS.
[19:31] <MatthTheGeek> you all high up on your mointain looking down at everyone who doesn't beam everything on insane blindfolded

 

Offline Enioch

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Aretha + Sebrenova OTP.

Ermolai watches.
'Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent'  -Salvor Hardin, "Foundation"

So don't take a hammer to your computer. ;-)

 

Offline Commander Zane

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I get the impression of bridge crews having the tone of Vaygr Fleet Command from that bit on Yonsakuren command etiquette.

 
You keep going on about Yaoi, but uh, that's really not WoD's thing...

Then what's the point?

 

Offline Enioch

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I get the impression of bridge crews having the tone of Vaygr Fleet Command from that bit on Yonsakuren command etiquette.

Good parallel, actually. I've never played as the Vaygr (never made it fully through the HW campaigns, actually) but, upon looking them up, that tone is pretty much on par with the Yonnies.

The fighter jockeys and crew can revel in their battle-lust as much as they like - they're still young and learning, after all. But if your bridge crew is showing emotion on a live channel, either **** has hit the fan to a staggering degree, or said crew has been over-promoted and need to be disciplined, hard.
'Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent'  -Salvor Hardin, "Foundation"

So don't take a hammer to your computer. ;-)

 

Offline Lorric

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Thanks for that big post of answers Enioch. I had originally intended to sit down and go through it and talk about it here, and I didn't think it would take nearly this long for me to do so, but now that I'm here, I don't have as much to say as I thought I would. It's good stuff and interesting. It seems like I was right then about glory being the main motive. They want to outshine French and Arc Victoria. It doesn't seem like French has the same issue. I suppose we'll find out by if he works diligently to send reinforcements.

I particularly liked the idea of a lack of understanding of the very nature of French's force, doctrine and limitations being a part of why this happened. Bad mistake by Pegasus, but even so makes them seem much less stupid for doing what they did. Does French have the same issue with Pegasus, or does he understand how Pegasus works?

Did you say Dyatlov arrived piecemeal? I thought he arrived as a fleet.

The CRF don't even have a dedicated bomber? Is that down to lack of funds or was the thinking they'd have the better fleet craft and destroy the enemy fleet craft ship to ship so they wouldn't need bombers?

 

Offline Enioch

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Thanks for that big post of answers Enioch. I had originally intended to sit down and go through it and talk about it here, and I didn't think it would take nearly this long for me to do so, but now that I'm here, I don't have as much to say as I thought I would.

Hey, np. Glad I could help.

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I particularly liked the idea of a lack of understanding of the very nature of French's force, doctrine and limitations being a part of why this happened. Bad mistake by Pegasus, but even so makes them seem much less stupid for doing what they did. Does French have the same issue with Pegasus, or does he understand how Pegasus works?

French understands how Pegasus works, but he doesn't understand why they work like that. He has been ordered to seize the system with its infrastructure more-or-less intact; he believes firmly that this will benefit not just Arc Victoria, but New Britannia as a whole; and he just does not get why the Pegasus-folk insist on seeking 'glorious victory' instead of playing it safe and methodical.

Like Ermolai said - French works and thinks with wheels within wheels. Pegasus-folk think straight like an arrow.

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Did you say Dyatlov arrived piecemeal? I thought he arrived as a fleet.

Kinda-sorta. He coordinated things so that his ships arrived from the various garissoned areas at the same time; but his different task forces arrived in different positions and had to scramble to form up. Strategically, he arrived in an organised manner; tactically, it was a disaster.

(As a sidenote, if French attempted it now, it would be even worse; Dyatlov had planned and trained for such a response. French, on the other hand, has not (instead he has trained for a glacier assault); and if he gives the order for his ships to jump to Aretha's help without gathering them up first, he is likely to arrive both at different locations and at subtly different timepoints - which would be flat-out suicide)

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The CRF don't even have a dedicated bomber? Is that down to lack of funds or was the thinking they'd have the better fleet craft and destroy the enemy fleet craft ship to ship so they wouldn't need bombers?

Both. CRF economy sucks in relation to that of other factions; and they have, therefore, opted to concentrate all their anti-capital firepower onto their Dreadnoughts and heavy cruisers. Simmons and the carrier folk are very much a minority and need to make do with converted Block I Dukes for escort carriers. And they are primarily employed as recon elements and Combat Space Patrol, the theory being that, if you engage the enemy strikecraft within your own capitals' PD screen, you'll win.

Problem is that, this time around, the fighters did not have that luxury and were slaughtered.
'Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent'  -Salvor Hardin, "Foundation"

So don't take a hammer to your computer. ;-)

 

Offline Lorric

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Thanks again for the explanations.

Well, French isn't alone, I don't understand it either. They're not after the spoils of war. What good is glory by itself?

And of course French's forces shouldn't have to suffer because of the mistakes of others. Especially when it was felt his force alone could do the job.

So what happens if the other force doesn't do what Pegasus wants them to do? Which is happening right now. Doesn't that make it all too easy to defeat them if their force isn't playing to the strengths of the CRF? Mobility is useless against a jump inhibitor.

 

Offline Enioch

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Well, French isn't alone, I don't understand it either. They're not after the spoils of war. What good is glory by itself?

Arc Victoria and Pegasus are political rivals. Earning a major victory in a campaign led by an Arc Victoria field commander would make Pegasus' prestige skyrocket.

...whooops, I guess?  :nervous:

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So what happens if the other force doesn't do what Pegasus wants them to do? Which is happening right now. Doesn't that make it all too easy to defeat them if their force isn't playing to the strengths of the CRF? Mobility is useless against a jump inhibitor.

Sure. But, in their defense, the strengths and doctrines of the CRF (Pegasus included) were settled on based on past experiences. That are, suddenly, no longer applicable.

I'll point out again that, as far as Pegasus knows, Dyatlov is insane. He is not playing by the political rules that have dominated all past CRF / DD conflicts in the past. He is literally all-inning against the Pegasus fleet, and only offering token resistance in the asteroid belts against French: he is sacrificing the economic lifeblood of the system, just to kill Pegasus. No Delest admiral would have done that in the past: they would be much too hobbled by political pressure to commit their forces so extensively.

Conventional Delest doctrine would mean that the Pegasus strike force would have encountered a considerably smaller force in the shipyards (somewhere between three to six capitals, instead of the current twenty-three). In that scenario, no inhibitor fields would have helped the Delest.

In short:

Aretha: "What the **** is this; he has left the entire system undefended, simply to fight me? This makes no sense!"
French: "What the hell? WHY DID YOU MAKE HIM BRING HIS FLEET TOGETHER, FOR GOD'S SAKE? I WANTED HIM SPLIT BETWEEN MULTIPLE LOCATIONS!"
'Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent'  -Salvor Hardin, "Foundation"

So don't take a hammer to your computer. ;-)

 

Offline Lorric

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That you've thought this through so well is increasing my anticipation and excitement for what's to come... :)

If Pegasus survive, and in good enough condition to continue the conflict in some way, I wonder if they even can. If the goal is glory, it seems impossible for them to achieve now. Dyatlov has practically put Aretha down on her knees, begging her rival to save her and her people, which if all goes well, he will be the one coming in to take all the glory and be much better equipped to take more glory in the future. Would they even stick around relegated to a supporting role? Though perhaps honour and revenge might be motivators for that...

I hope you can express this CRF view of Dyatlov appearing to be insane in the story.

 

Offline Enioch

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That you've thought this through so well is increasing my anticipation and excitement for what's to come... :)

*Happy dance*

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If Pegasus survive, and in good enough condition to continue the conflict in some way, I wonder if they even can. If the goal is glory, it seems impossible for them to achieve now. Dyatlov has practically put Aretha down on her knees, begging her rival to save her and her people, which if all goes well, he will be the one coming in to take all the glory and be much better equipped to take more glory in the future. Would they even stick around relegated to a supporting role?

Oh, barring any miracles (and/or really effective propaganda), Pegasus is ****ed from a prestige standpoint right now.

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I hope you can express this CRF view of Dyatlov appearing to be insane in the story.

Give me time.
'Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent'  -Salvor Hardin, "Foundation"

So don't take a hammer to your computer. ;-)

 

Offline Lorric

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I'm looking forward then to them perhaps raging incredulously at Dyatlov. :D

Speaking of propaganda, I could see a bit of that perhaps coming from the DD side too...