Author Topic: Last updated VP??  (Read 21539 times)

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Offline Galemp

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As a longstanding member of the community who has just bought my first house with my fiancee and moved in TODAY, I agree with Žacam.

The ONLY guaranteed way to see more progress is to take ownership and make a contribution yourself. Pick up Blender or GIMP or FRED. All of us would be happy to help you learn and provide constructive feedback and praise. And it will give you some appreciation for what it is we do, and how, and why it takes years to do.

Our incentives dwell within ourselves. They're not externally motivated. Find that desire to improve within yourself. Let your consumption impulses turn to creation. If you look at something and think "This could be better" you can think "I could make it better." You have more tools than any of us had when we grognards started out, with TrueSpace and ModelView32. If you want new content that badly, make some. It's tremendously rewarding! And it will build empathy with other content creators, too.

We don't have an audience. We have a community. And we'd like you to be a part of it. Thank you.



This is Galemp, signing off.
"Anyone can do any amount of work, provided it isn't the work he's supposed to be doing at that moment." -- Robert Benchley

Members I've personally met: RedStreblo, Goober5000, Sandwich, Splinter, Su-tehp, Hippo, CP5670, Terran Emperor, Karajorma, Dekker, McCall, Admiral Wolf, mxlm, RedSniper, Stealth, Black Wolf...

 

Offline iVoid

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Just to be clear, I find all this unfair not because "oh noes we'll have to wait longer!", but because of the way you seem to react. It's good to hear you find your motivation from within yourselves but then why do you seem to lose your motivation so easily when you think someone in the community doesn't appreciate your work? Seems a little contradictory... Mjn's position for example seems to be like "you owe me! you have some nerve talking like that", it's like he's keeping a scoreboard... The members who expressed criticism here were pretty polite and constructive, I don't think this attitude is justified at all... Again, I don't want sacrifice from any of you, I don't want nothing from any of you, if you're not having fun then I'm sorry you feel that way but maybe you should think about why do you do this.

 

Offline Raven2001

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Just to be clear, I find all this unfair not because "oh noes we'll have to wait longer!", but because of the way you seem to react. It's good to hear you find your motivation from within yourselves but then why do you seem to lose your motivation so easily when you think someone in the community doesn't appreciate your work? Seems a little contradictory... Mjn's position for example seems to be like "you owe me! you have some nerve talking like that", it's like he's keeping a scoreboard... The members who expressed criticism here were pretty polite and constructive, I don't think this attitude is justified at all... Again, I don't want sacrifice from any of you, I don't want nothing from any of you, if you're not having fun then I'm sorry you feel that way but maybe you should think about why do you do this.

^This. He has a point.
Yeah, I know you were waiting for a very nice sig, in which I was quoting some very famous scientist or philosopher... guess what?!? I wont indulge you...

Why, you ask? What, do I look like a Shivan to you?!?


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Offline mjn.mixael

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I do it because it's fun. Crap threads like this? People feeling entitled to make me work on their schedule? Not fun. Spin it however you like.
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Offline Husker

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Background on me, I just started playing FS 2 a few months ago, and started playing FSO a couple weeks ago. That said, these guys work on this for free, out of the goodness of their hearts. Maybe it has been a long time since the last mediavps were released, so? To those complaining: if you don't like the fact that its been a while, get off your lazy butt and compile what's been finished so far. Heck, some of these guys *might* help you. Threads like this only sap THEIR motivation to continue. If I had to deal with people like you on top of real life; forget it buddy, your on your own.
Rant over.

If I may ask, what is the current status of the next MediaVPs?

 

Offline Killer Whale

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This is Galemp, signing off.
NNOOOoo!! We need you!

...or are you just being dramatic :nervous:

 
I was trying to leave this be, but... mjn, your attitude throughout this thread, culminating in an incredibly precious attempt to spite me by holding your work on FSU ransom, says far more about your own sense of entitlement to unwavering praise and sycophancy for working on a mod project for free than about me. Yes, I do realise how much work the team puts into this project. No, I don't expect you to put that work ahead of your own lives and enjoyment. But that doesn't mean I can't criticise your development practices when they seem nonsensical and detrimental to both this project and this community.

Zacam, thank you for that explanation. I can at least understand why you're running things this way, even if I don't necessarily agree with parts of it.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline iVoid

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I do it because it's fun. Crap threads like this? People feeling entitled to make me work on their schedule? Not fun. Spin it however you like.
You don't seem to understand at all... People here have made very valid points about what the FSU team could do better, but what you seem to be doing is dismissing any criticism by pretending all they've said was "RELEASE NAO!", and that isn't true at all... Valid points made on this thread (tell me if I missed any):
 1) A better job could be done at keeping the community informed to the status of the mediaVPs. Otherwise is it any wonder that threads like this pop up every once in a while?
 2) Are bigger but less frequent updates the way to go or should smaller more frequent updates be done? Even if all the new stuff is available before the new release there is no denying that the mediaVPs have a huge impact in the community. And whatever the course of action chosen, it should be made crystal clear to the community, or (again) risk having to go over this every once in a while.
 3) All the completed assets should be available to download (it isn't the case for all of them). It would probably also help to have a well organized thread with all the new stuff that is completed (with download links, instead of links to huge confusing threads where sometimes you need to search the entire thread for the download link).
 4) A tutorial on how to use the new assets available for download would also be a good idea.

Better communication between the team and the community will ensure that threads like this never pop up. I'm not demanding anything, this is not exactly a favor you'd be doing for the community, this is common sense: do you prefer to waste time and energy replying to threads like this and then getting mad, or wouldn't it be better to say all this stuff only ONCE, and if a thread like this ever pops up all you have to do is post a link to a thread where you already explain all of this, and you can then only invest time and energy on the fun part?

The rest of the community can help you organise all this of course, but not without the help of the team...

 

Offline mjn.mixael

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Nah, I'm not into hand holding. There are threads that explain how to install things. There are threads that explain the status of things. The laziness of the community browse through those threads is the problem there. As for the rest.. I don't answer to you guys. And no, I'm not holding my work ransom.. I just don't feel like doing anything to reward this sort of behavior. If the rest of the FSU team wants to, fine. But I'm not going to suddenly bend over backwards to push out a release or to make yet another 'assets' thread or to write another 'tutorial' thread because you guys can't be arsed to do it yourself.
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Offline iVoid

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It's really easy to just blame others without admitting a single mistake or that something could be done better. As it is now it really is a bit confusing, the proof is the number of people here who are asking for the status of the mediaVPs. Not to mention that not all the information I mentioned is actually available. Anyway that's your choice, have fun with threads like this in the future then.

As I said, the rest of the community could help organise that stuff, but how could that ever be possible if everytime a member of the community asked a team member something we got this sort of reaction?

I also have to agree with what Phantom Hoover said too, I'm not a native english speaker and I couldn't have put it more eloquently.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 01:53:45 pm by iVoid »

 

Offline mjn.mixael

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Let's go back the shall we? To the beginning of my major issue...

We have cut them some slack, in the 3 years since the last release. Maybe it's time we were more direct in asking for them to actually make their work accessible to the wider community.

This is not OK. You never, ever have any right to my work until I say so. Period. End of discussion. It's my work and I'll release it when I damn well please and to whomever I please. Now, if you guys had made something for FSU and were wanting to know when it will be released officially, that's be different. As it is, you guys are just wanting to get your giggles from new shinies the moment you saw an opportunity to ask for them again. Suck it up and move on, because if anything, you are most definitely hindering a MediaVPs release. Even if you aren't hindering, this thread is clearly not helping.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 02:32:59 pm by mjn.mixael »
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Offline iVoid

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I agree, asking for your work before you want to share it is not ok. But that's not what he was asking for... He was asking for a release of the mediaVPs, which only has to contain the work that the people who worked on it are ready to share. Two very different things.

And I also think asking for a release date from people who work for fun is not ok. That extra pressure makes it less fun and the motivation will go away. But it is also one thing to ask how things are doing, and another different thing to ask for a release date. You're mixing it all up... In the specific case you pointed out that wasn't the case but there were others who were reasonable and didn't ask for a release and they got the same treatment.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 03:12:28 pm by iVoid »

 

Offline mjn.mixael

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I have only been responding to phantom hoover and bobboau.

What makes asking for a group's work any different from an individuals? Where do you draw the line? Two people on one model? 3 people on a set of models? When does it become OK to start demanding updates and releases?
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Offline iVoid

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What line? The MediaVPs are by definition a collection of all the work that is ready to release, if you don't want to release your work yet then it isn't ready, but the mediaVPs have other people's work too that might be ready, right? Don't you think you might have jumped to conclusions?

And is it really a surprise that people are impatient after so long when it's hard to understand what the status of the mediaVPs is? Lack of communication IS a problem. Most of the people here aren't just being whiny brats demanding a release, they're trying to be constructive and identify the problems here but you don't seem to be open to criticism/feedback.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 05:16:49 pm by iVoid »

 

Offline mjn.mixael

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You guys keep ignoring the fact that stickied thread exist. It was clearly pointed out here that people just aren't reading them. Either one. Not my problem you guys aren't doing your part of the communication.

The MediaVPs are a collection of work. But those of us on the team spend a lot of time making sure it's as beautiful and bug-free as possible. That's our work. If we aren't ready then we aren't ready.

I'm still wanting to know how you think this is helpful anymore. Do you think I'm going to bend over and say 'you know what, you're right. Why don't I take time out of my life to do everything you ever wanted. I'll make another assets thread. I'll make get a release ready. Don't know how to install everything? Sure, I'll just go ahead and make instructions for you. Ooooooooh, you just didn't want to go find the models that have been release. Yeah, no problem. I've got all the time in the world to search the board for you, pick out the download links and format that all into simple list of links for you.'

Yeah... no. Go do it yourself. I don't have that kind of time, nor, after this crap would I even want to. When people weren't being all entitled and rude, I kindly gave them the same answers. See here and here. But you just keep puuuuushing and puuuushing. What. The. Hell. Do. You. Actually. Want.
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Offline iVoid

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lol what happened is that I couldn't possibly stay quiet when you were so unfair to phantom and many of us. Whatever man, I'm tired of this talk, I said what's in my mind and you'll only hear what you want to hear, your work is perfect everything's fine and there is absolutely nothing we could change to make things work better. There, we're all in agreement now.

 

Offline mjn.mixael

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you'll only hear what you want to hear

Indeed
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Offline iVoid

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Sigh... I meant it in regards of listening to criticism. You just proved my point...

 

Offline Flipside

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Well, that went well...

Thing is, as this thread shows, it's so easy for concerns to ratchet themselves up to the point where they do nothing but harm.

For those of you who want to lend a hand to the FSU to get a new VP together and released, I'd suggest starting at the Wiki :

http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Portal:Modding

And using the tutorials posted in the Modding section :

http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=70249.0

On the other side of the coin, yes, FSU could be handled better, so could most mods, so could the SCP itself, there's always room for improvement when a large, disparate group of people are doing a project, and the FSU is probably one of the most community-centric projects on HLP. FSU is not one person, or one project, it's a collection from many people working at different speeds and on different things. That sort of project is very difficult to centralize, especially when the contributors have lives outside the project.

Maybe a little less frustration and a little more concern is needed from one side, and a little more coherence and centralization is required on the other, I don't know, but what I do know is that the line between motivating and pushing is in different places for different people, and getting annoyed is just going to make something that should be about giving to the community into something that damages it instead, and that helps no-one at all.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Man what really angers me about this thread is that I *really* wanted to go inside the FSU waters and work my ass off into modelling, texturing, all that crap, and help the team. I do have the talent and the know-hows. I just don't have the time. I don't even play games anymore. RGA has had his first son, well I have three and lots of family issues I have to deal with plus a really hard job that takes more than its due. And then I have to read to a lot of people here who clearly have the time to even play games, ***** and moan that they aren't being taken seriously enough, that their demands aren't being met, etc., etc. It's like god gives coconuts to people without teeth or something.

/rant

Oh and iVoid, come on. You are clearly not liking Mjn's tone, but have you looked at the mirror? Just look at this comment of yours:

You don't seem to understand at all... People here have made very valid points about what the FSU team could do better, but what you seem to be doing is dismissing any criticism by pretending all they've said was "RELEASE NAO!", and that isn't true at all... Valid points made on this thread (tell me if I missed any):
 1) A better job could be done at keeping the community informed to the status of the mediaVPs. Otherwise is it any wonder that threads like this pop up every once in a while?
 2) Are bigger but less frequent updates the way to go or should smaller more frequent updates be done? Even if all the new stuff is available before the new release there is no denying that the mediaVPs have a huge impact in the community. And whatever the course of action chosen, it should be made crystal clear to the community, or (again) risk having to go over this every once in a while.
 3) All the completed assets should be available to download (it isn't the case for all of them). It would probably also help to have a well organized thread with all the new stuff that is completed (with download links, instead of links to huge confusing threads where sometimes you need to search the entire thread for the download link).
 4) A tutorial on how to use the new assets available for download would also be a good idea.

Better communication between the team and the community will ensure that threads like this never pop up. I'm not demanding anything, this is not exactly a favor you'd be doing for the community, this is common sense: do you prefer to waste time and energy replying to threads like this and then getting mad, or wouldn't it be better to say all this stuff only ONCE, and if a thread like this ever pops up all you have to do is post a link to a thread where you already explain all of this, and you can then only invest time and energy on the fun part?

The rest of the community can help you organise all this of course, but not without the help of the team...

Where is this "rest of the community" and notice that part where I bolded. This is what drives people nuts. You state (on and on) that you aren't "demanding" anything, and yet you've just listed 4 things you demanded of the FSU team! Regarding point 3, that is not a true state of affairs. Almost every single release thread has its download button on the very first post of that thread. If you are not bothered to do these simple things.... come on do you see the point? If your problem is that there aren't threads that could be so much simpler and so on, then go ahead and write them! This is not a snide remark, it's an actual advice! This is how communities do things. They just step up and do what they feel is missing out, they do not demand of others.

IOW, tl dr, "ask not what the FSU can do for you, ask what you can do for the FSU".