Hard Light Productions Forums
FreeSpace Releases => Mission & Campaign Releases => Topic started by: Ransom on August 15, 2006, 01:07:23 pm
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From the original thread (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,41578.0.html):
Yeah, how about we get a basic template for a mission [or small campaign], doll it out to the community, and just let people go off on tangents making conceptual missions, as much FS2 missions as unique works of art. Y'know, something like the infamous YMCA we all know an love.
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I based the idea off essentially Mr. Squiggle, if you get my meaning. You pick up something generic, and use it to create something unique.
'Tangents' is a collaborative FREDing experiment in which a set of simple, open-ended criteria for a mission is supplied, which participants then use as a basis for their own conceptual missions or micro-campaigns. Aside from these guidelines, there are no limits as to what the mission entails; creativity is encouraged, and because each FREDer works independently this criteria inevitably splits into entirely seperate tangents.
Guidelines:
- This message must be displayed at some point during your tangent:
- "Did you have any idea what you were getting into when you volunteered for this assignment?" - The following three names must be present somewhere within your tangent. How and where they appear is entirely up to you:
- Vale
- Scorn
- Wraith - Tangents may be a single standalone mission or a micro-campaign of up to three missions.
- There's no limit on how many tangents a single participant makes.
- Mods are allowed so long as your tangent remains entirely self contained in a VP, using modular tables.
For the sake of clarity, there's no 'sign ups' or anything. If you want to be involved, just get started on your mission. Good luck!
Released tangents:
Blaise Russel / Ordinary Day (http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/sbre/brtangent.zip)
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We need an idea that's sufficiently detailed enough to give structure, but general enough so that one may still be excessively creative.
An example might be a three-mission strike on a Shivan supply-depot without real details on how it's done, what resources are used, etc. So, theoretically, you could bring in GTVA-man striking against a depot guarded by Count Shiva, that's the kind of creativity this thing should be aiming for.
But at the same time, we don't want to stifle the chance to go completely off-the-wall, like using an intricate ballet of ships entering and exiting subspace to create a big smilie-face to scare away the Shivans... or something.
Just throwing ideas out there.
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I don't think it's a good idea to specify the number of missions. A single mission requirement is something people can look at and think 'Sure, why not?' Whereas a three mission campaign requires a bit more commitment, and I think that might be detrimental to the whimsical nature of this project.
Regarding the premise itself, I think the most important thing here is the wording. The Shivan depot idea could work well if certain things aren't specified; perhaps something as simple as 'A Shivan supply depot is under attack.' It allows for plenty of freedom, but it'll still mean there will be a familiar anchor in each tangent in the form of the Shivan supply depot. I'm not sure if you're looking for a little more structure than that, though.
Also, it'd be nice if we could get a show of hands. Just how many people are considering contributing to this project once it gets off the ground?
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/me raises hand.
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I'm in. It will have to be after BSG's Demo is out cause all my FREDding time is going into that but I should be free about the time this starts being worked on. :)
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I'm in. It will have to be after BSG's Demo is out cause all my FREDding time is going into that but I should be free about the time this starts being worked on. :)
What about MG? :p
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Shouldn't take me that long to make a single mission. :)
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I'm in. This sounds like an interesting idea.
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Sure.
And less structure, the better. I want to go off on a tangent so tenuous, it doesn't even make sense.
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I'ld love to make something with this.
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I don't think it's a good idea to specify the number of missions. A single mission requirement is something people can look at and think 'Sure, why not?' Whereas a three mission campaign requires a bit more commitment, and I think that might be detrimental to the whimsical nature of this project.
Very good point, let's have a limit of three missions for the people who want to make something larger, but also to prevent people from going overboard.
Regarding the premise itself, I think the most important thing here is the wording. The Shivan depot idea could work well if certain things aren't specified; perhaps something as simple as 'A Shivan supply depot is under attack.' It allows for plenty of freedom, but it'll still mean there will be a familiar anchor in each tangent in the form of the Shivan supply depot. I'm not sure if you're looking for a little more structure than that, though.
Nah, that sounds good. This project is all about artistic freedom. Although, keeping it that general will make it incredibly hard to have a single message like the one you suggested, as it'll have to be pretty damn general to be as open as the premise.
On that subject, how much deviance from the core subject of 'Shivan Depot under attack' should be allowed in your opinion?
And less structure, the better. I want to go off on a tangent so tenuous, it doesn't even make sense.
That's the idea. The more mind-blowing, the better. :yes:
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Nah, that sounds good. This project is all about artistic freedom. Although, keeping it that general will make it incredibly hard to have a single message like the one you suggested, as it'll have to be pretty damn general to be as open as the premise.
Well, the function of the premise and the message is really just to provide a seed for inspiration and to link the tangents together. The idea with the message was that it would add a bit of depth to the creative process -- that is, more than one dot to connect. But at this point I think simplicity of concept is one of Tangent's strengths, so perhaps it's something to try another time.
On that subject, how much deviance from the core subject of 'Shivan Depot under attack' should be allowed in your opinion?
Well, so long as there's a Shivan depot and it's under attack in some way, it'd probably be fine. I think the biggest potential for this project lies in creative interpretation of the premise's wording, so I wouldn't want to rule anything out.
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I think the one message idea is very good. It makes them all more similar so they're the same theme, but still totally different. Plus it would be very fun to see how it's used. It would make the whole endeavour more interesting.
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I am most definitely in!
So how many missions do we want before releasing the first installment (who said we needed to do only one iteration?) It might even be good excercise for the FRED Academy, Kara. ;7
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I think the one message idea is very good. It makes them all more similar so they're the same theme, but still totally different. Plus it would be very fun to see how it's used. It would make the whole endeavour more interesting.
Seconded, for the same reasons. I always like a challenge.
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A line of dialog out of context allows us to create the context. Attack a Shivan Depot already gives us a context (well a good idea of one anyway), and would give us something like 10 Attack A Shivan Depot missions. IMO they would all have to be ingeniously done to keep the player from getting bored after the 3rd iteration.
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Good point, Axem.
Maybe what we should do is drop the whole idea that it has to be a cargo depot mission, or it has to be a whatever mission. Let's just come up with a random message, and say that the mission can be anything you want so long as it includes that message. :)
Some suggestions:
"Holy crap! Command, do you see this? Something's coming through!"
"I picked the wrong day to join the NTF."
"Naturally. It's the first rule of government spending. Why build one, when you can have two for twice the price?"
"Did you have any idea what you were getting into when you volunteered for this assignment?"
"See if you can get into the Lucifer's docking bay."
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Maybe what we should do is drop the whole idea that it has to be a cargo depot mission, or it has to be a whatever mission. Let's just come up with a random message, and say that the mission can be anything you want so long as it includes that message.
Woah, now this is getting really off the wall... I like it! :yes:
Some suggestions:
"Holy crap! Command, do you see this? Something's coming through!"
"Did you have any idea what you were getting into when you volunteered for this assignment?"
I'm liking these two so far, nice and general without any restricting reference to a particular group, but specific enough to definitely create a vague sense of similarity in the submissions.
Let's see some more ideas and, say, have a vote?
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Hooray! Suggestions!
I'm all for Goober's idea. I especially like:
"Did you have any idea what you were getting into when you volunteered for this assignment?"
Although by throwing out the premise, we lose much of the sense of connection the tangents would have. So I'm wondering if it would be a nice touch to have, as well as the message, a predefined ship present in each tangent -- or perhaps even just the name of a ship. It'd provide a nice sense of familiarity without imposing any real structure on the missions.
So how many missions do we want before releasing the first installment (who said we needed to do only one iteration?)
Well, I don't see any reason why the entries can't just be released as they're finished. I could provide webspace, incidentally.
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So is the idea having a line of dialog and/or a ship name rather than a basic mission template now?
Or is there still a mission template but adding this added similarity.
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Make a skeleton misison with standard messages and empty directives for when wings arrive etc. LEave the ship names and orders to the maker, but allow them to choose setting and targets........?
Maybe?
..............Perhaps :D
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So is the idea having a line of dialog and/or a ship name rather than a basic mission template now?
Or is there still a mission template but adding this added similarity.
We can still have the template, but it's only really there for those who want to get right to the action without futzing around with all the monotonous fidgy-widgyness if we decide to include anything more than the message.
As it stands, it'll most likely be entirely up to the FREDer to get started.
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I'm all for Goober's idea.
To be fair, it was mostly Axem's idea. I just piggybacked off it and fleshed it out a bit. ;)
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Okay... is anyone going to suggest more possible messages, or will we just vote on the five suggested by Goober?
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No, he seems to have it. Although I'd also suggest the addition of a specified ship name.
Vale?
:nervous:
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That's actually a pretty cool idea. We have a single message, a single ship-name, and maybe a single objective name to work around?
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I'm not sure about that last bit, but pretty much. What sort of objective did you have in mind?
Should we make the inclusion of the specified ship a requirement as originally suggested, or allow people to do whatever they want with the name so long as it's present somewhere in the mission?
Regarding the actual ship, for some reason the name Scorn comes to mind. I'm not fussed, though.
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I meant an objective name as in something like 'Protect the ...', leaving the detail out but the gist of it in there. Or maybe something like 'Capture ...', or 'Oversee the ...', or even 'Fly to ...' or something.
Regarding the ship, i'm not sure if you mean an actual class of ship, but I was just referring to having simply a ship-name that must be somewhere in the mission a la the comm-message, something like 'Wraith'.
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That was the idea. What I was asking was whether a ship by the given name should be required to actually be in the mission, or if it should be left to the FREDer to decide what to do with the name.
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Oh, well I was thinking the name would be used somewhere in the mission, so not in the briefing, but up to the FREDer for whether it's an actual ship or simply a vessel alluded to in a comm message or whatever. Hell, we could just make it a name of anything, not necessarily a ship, just something, somewhere in or around the mission.
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Well if nobody has anything more to add, I suppose we'd better start making decisions as to the final name and message. Is it worth making a poll? And does anyone have other names to throw in with the three suggested so far (Vale, Scorn and Wraith)?
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Why not just pick some myth or contemporary event? Like, for example, take the story of Loki killing Balder (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/l/loki.html) and provide something referencing it in some suitable 'loose' way?
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That's not a bad idea, but I think it requires a bit more thought and research on the FREDer's part. That kind of spoils the simplicity of the project.
I think it might be best if we stick with what we have now, or we'll run the risk of never getting this project off the ground.
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That's not a bad idea, but I think it requires a bit more thought and research on the FREDer's part. That kind of spoils the simplicity of the project.
I think it might be best if we stick with what we have now, or we'll run the risk of never getting this project off the ground.
Isn't that the point? You can make it a fairly direct copy (like, I dunno, being in an NTF Loki squadron ambushing a GTVA destroyer called the Balder), or an obtuse allegory - all depends on the FREDers imagination. 'sides which, you only need to provide a very abstract base story like that Pantheon link, something as simple as 'The seemingly invulnerable Balder is killed by Loki' and it's up to people if they want to go deeper into the mythological basis or spin off in a completely different direction.
I get your point, though. I just like using these things as a basis, think it's both interesting and very challenging.
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Ultimately, it's up to the other participants. If more people would rather do that than what we had earlier, there's no reason why we can't go with it. Don't get me wrong, I see the appeal of what you're suggesting; I just think that, this being something of a collaborative FREDing experiment, it would make more sense to start with something as simple and open as possible, then build on that with more specialised ideas if the project's successful. We could easily have more than one 'round', each with a different set of guidelines.
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Furry muff. I did actually think it was a fairly simple idea, that's why I suggested it :)
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What I have to do to help you with this miniproject?
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Right now we're kicking about ideas. Once we're final all you'll have to do is make a mission somehow using the phrase, name or whatever we decide will be the seed of this idea.
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What timeframe we looking at before completion?
I always make missions quicker when guidelines are in place....
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Right now we're kicking about ideas. Once we're final all you'll have to do is make a mission somehow using the phrase, name or whatever we decide will be the seed of this idea.
As you wish,master :lol:
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Oh no 11 days since last reply.
Come on, what are we going with then? I'l like to see this rolling along.
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Since nobody's come forward with any more suggestions, I'll say again: Is it worth making a poll? We still need to decide on which message and which ship name to use.
So far we have these lines of dialogue to choose from:
"Holy crap! Command, do you see this? Something's coming through!"
"I picked the wrong day to join the NTF."
"Naturally. It's the first rule of government spending. Why build one, when you can have two for twice the price?"
"Did you have any idea what you were getting into when you volunteered for this assignment?"
"See if you can get into the Lucifer's docking bay."
And either Vale, Scorn, or Wraith for the ship name.
I'm wondering whether the NTF and/or Lucifer messages should be removed, since they're a little specific. Although personally I think we should just go with:
"Did you have any idea what you were getting into when you volunteered for this assignment?"
...Since it's the one I think allows for the most variation without sounding too generic. But it's up to everyone else.
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I agree with that; the others would provide a tad more context, but not the same variety.
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I'm wondering whether the NTF and/or Lucifer messages should be removed, since they're a little specific. Although personally I think we should just go with:
"Did you have any idea what you were getting into when you volunteered for this assignment?"
...Since it's the one I think allows for the most variation without sounding too generic. But it's up to everyone else.
Took the words right out of my fingers.
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Sounds good to me. How about having all three ship-names open and leaving the choice up to the FREDer, perhaps?
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I think that would kind of defeat the point of including a defined ship name. Since FREDers are free to do whatever they want with the name, we might as well decide on a particular one.
Or I suppose we could include all three. Since the FREDer's not limited in how the names appear in the mission, it probably wouldn't do any harm.
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Yes. :yes:
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I guess that settles that, then.
So as it stands, the criteria for each tangent is the inclusion of a line of dialogue and three names. Is there anything else anyone wants to add? Because if not, it looks like we're nearly good to go. Couple more things I can think of that need clarifying:
- Does anyone have any objections to allowing participants to make more than one tangent?
- What'll be the policy on mods? I'm hesitant about new ships, but I don't see any problem with things like custom loading screens and new sounds so long as it doesn't balloon the filesize too much.
Also, at this point I think supplying a template mission file would be largely pointless considering how open the criteria is.
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Is that the only defining feature, One line of dialoge and three names?
What about setting? :confused:
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Giving a setting would mean creating an actual mission. As it stands, the project is loose enough to allow all sorts of weirdness and post-modern creativity, while at the same time constricting enough that every submission will have a few things in common regardless of what they are.
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You mean like a Collab ?
OK, fair enough.. So this will be a case of DL a base mission and add to it then?
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Given the very few mandatory inclusions for your given Tangent, a template mission would be unneeded as Ransom previously stated. Even a completely new FREDer fresh out of the extended walkthrough should be able to set up the message and names wherever and whenever they choose to apply them.
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I'm just tryong to get the concept, anyway regardless of my inability to grasp the basic premise of this, I understand that the theoretics are finished?
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- Does anyone have any objections to allowing participants to make more than one tangent?
- What'll be the policy on mods? I'm hesitant about new ships, but I don't see any problem with things like
No objections to the first.
As long as they swear they'll use .tbms and package everything in a VP, I have no objections to new ships, either.
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Okay. I'll start things off.
High concept THIS!
Ordinary Day (http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/sbre/brtangent.zip) is just that: an ordinary day for a member of the GTVA Volunteer Corps. Volunteer Corpsmen are men and women who are too old or too badly injured to fight ol' Aken and his NTF dogs up close and personal, so they give him what-for by guarding depots, patrolling trade routes and escorting merchant freighters behind enemy lines, freeing up soldiers to fight at the front lines.
Things, however, will not turn out as expected.
Oh, for the background, you'll need LS' nebula backgrounds.
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Haha, that's great. Perfect way to start off the project.
I was going to wait a couple more days to make sure nobody had anything more to add at the last minute, but since people are anxious to start I've edited the first post of this thread with the finalised guidelines we decided on. I'll also update it with each new tangent that gets released so people don't have to hunt through the thread to find the actual releases.
If I forgot to mention anything in the first post, let me know. I've tried to make it understandable for those who happened not to be around while we were deciding everything, but if anyone thinks it could be improved, suggestions are welcome.
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I'm creating a Tangent too!!!
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Mine's in the works. Should be done by the day after tomorrow. People should get a laugh out of it... ;)
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I regret to report, BR, that your tangent is giving 3.6.9 RC7 a fit. :sigh:
Error: tangent-str.tbm(line 149:
Error: Missing required token: [$Debris:]. Found [debris01] instead.
File:D:\C++\Freespace\fs2_open 3.6.9\code\Parse\PARSELO.CPP
Line: 638
[This filename points to the location of a file on the computer that built this executable]
Call stack:
------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------
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This whole stuff just got explained to me, so I think I will give it a try some time in the future. However, I think there should be more guidelines, maybe one in addition would do. Something like "one of the three ships named must survive" or "the mission should have at least one stealthed target." I think it would result in interesting missions.
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Hmm. Even in things like a mission design contest, people prefer being shackled rather than having open-ended freedom.